Mac With Apple-Designed Arm Processor Coming in First Half of 2021

[RogerWilco6502]

Apple announced 64-bit support on the Mac at least ten years. The writing was on the wall then. Ten years is enough of a transition time for developers and users to get on board. Just because Apple can support 32-bit apps longer than 10 ten years doesn't mean they should. Look at MS - because of a fanatic dedication to backward compatibility they're having trouble moving forward so much so that they literally lost the smartphone wars and were blindsided by the iPad in the tablet market.

In addition, it's not just Apple either. Many Linux distros and software developers (such as Google with Chrome) have announced that they are dropping/have dropped support for 32 bit processors and operating systems. On a side note, this dropping of support is what causes some challenges with running Linux on 32 bit PPC systems such as G3s and G4s.

 

[jjhny]

Not just a walled garden, but now with a moat and alligators. This will severely limit the apps available, except for crummy kiddie apps. The period of confusion in changeover will kill any serious production or science work. For the casual user this will not be a problem. They won't have much of a hiccup using mail, chat, web, word processing, watching video, etc - the very consumer based. Those doing more intensive work (not people who just use canned effects, and templates) will move to PC or linux. This is just corporate policy moving with the inertia of a freight train. Tim Cook has truly put a bow on a locked down, Apple approved only, computer experience. Just like I would never be trapped by something Like AppleTV - not likely to be willing to be trapped on consumer app island.

 

[smulji]

Not just a walled garden, but now with a moat and alligators. This will severely limit the apps available, except for crummy kiddie apps. The period of confusion in changeover will kill any serious production or science work. For the casual user this will not be a problem. They won't have much of a hiccup using mail, chat, web, word processing, watching video, etc - the very consumer based. Those doing more intensive work (not people who just use canned effects, and templates) will move to PC or linux. This is just corporate policy moving with the inertia of a freight train. Tim Cook has truly put a bow on a locked down, Apple approved only, computer experience. Just like I would never be trapped by something Like AppleTV - not likely to be willing to be trapped on consumer app island.

"Those doing more intensive work (not people who just use canned effects, and templates) will move to PC or linux."

Or, you know, you could just use a Mac Pro.

 

[RogerWilco6502]

"Those doing more intensive work (not people who just use canned effects, and templates) will move to PC or linux."

Or, you know, you could just use a Mac Pro.

Or wait until developer supports matures and stick with Intel before then. Historically, when Apple has changed architectures, they give a good grace period to allow people to fully migrate.

 

[chucker23n1]

Microarchitecture is the spec. Cache delay, instruction cycles, all those things are result of microarchitecture.

ISA is the spec. Microarchitecture is the implementation of an ISA; in Intel’s case, when they speak of microarchitectures, they basically mean major versions.

 

[cmaier]

ISA is the spec. Microarchitecture is the implementation of an ISA; in Intel’s case, when they speak of microarchitectures, they basically mean major versions.

You are both right. (Taking into account I don’t know what either of you means by “the” spec. Both the ISA and the microarchitecture are “specs.” The canonical “document” that provides the microarchitecture is typically RTL.)

 

[MikeZTM]

Not just a walled garden, but now with a moat and alligators. This will severely limit the apps available, except for crummy kiddie apps. The period of confusion in changeover will kill any serious production or science work. For the casual user this will not be a problem. They won't have much of a hiccup using mail, chat, web, word processing, watching video, etc - the very consumer based. Those doing more intensive work (not people who just use canned effects, and templates) will move to PC or linux. This is just corporate policy moving with the inertia of a freight train. Tim Cook has truly put a bow on a locked down, Apple approved only, computer experience. Just like I would never be trapped by something Like AppleTV - not likely to be willing to be trapped on consumer app island.

There's no relation between ARM and walled garden.
If they keep the macOS as is now and just change the CPU to ARM, nothing will change.
If they lock down macOS tomorrow I bet your Intel CPU will not run anything that's not in the AppStore also.

ARM is not related to consumer--it's just a CPU arch and have nothing to do with what it runs. It only output raw performance and it's up to you to decide what it runs.

If you let it run blender then it's a productivity machine.

 

[jjhny]

There's no relation between ARM and walled garden.
If they keep the macOS as is now and just change the CPU to ARM, nothing will change.
If they lock down macOS tomorrow I bet your Intel CPU will not run anything that's not in the AppStore also.

ARM is not related to consumer--it's just a CPU arch and have nothing to do with what it runs. It only output raw performance and it's up to you to decide what it runs.

If you let it run blender then it's a productivity machine.

I wasn't saying ARM couldn't be open, but the writing on the wall with T2 chip, SIP and Gatekeeper and Apple only approved apps. It hasn't happened yet, but I sense that is the direction as things get locked down. Have a new 2019 Mac Pro (trapped with Catalina - no going backwards). I have to turn all the security off to run off label unsigned apps - apps that are critical to what we do. I can see Apple slowly tightening 'security' so they can get their cut of any app. The moat is being dredged, the alligators are being hatched. All for your security comrade! ha! Maybe ARM will help compute my Apple 'Social Credit Score...'

 

[RogerWilco6502]

I wasn't saying ARM couldn't be open, but the writing on the wall with T2 chip, SIP and Gatekeeper and Apple only approved apps. It hasn't happened yet, but I sense that is the direction as things get locked down. Have a new 2019 Mac Pro (trapped with Catalina - no going backwards). I have to turn all the security off to run off label unsigned apps - apps that are critical to what we do. I can see Apple slowly tightening 'security' so they can get their cut of any app. The moat is being dredged, the alligators are being hatched. All for your security comrade! ha! Maybe ARM will help compute my Apple 'Social Credit Score...'

There are ways around SIP and Gatekeeper, both of which I have used workarounds in certain instances.

 

[smulji]

I wasn't saying ARM couldn't be open, but the writing on the wall with T2 chip, SIP and Gatekeeper and Apple only approved apps. It hasn't happened yet, but I sense that is the direction as things get locked down. Have a new 2019 Mac Pro (trapped with Catalina - no going backwards). I have to turn all the security off to run off label unsigned apps - apps that are critical to what we do. I can see Apple slowly tightening 'security' so they can get their cut of any app. The moat is being dredged, the alligators are being hatched. All for your security comrade! ha! Maybe ARM will help compute my Apple 'Social Credit Score...'

"I can see Apple slowly tightening 'security' so they can get their cut of any app."

That will only happen if Apple requires ALL Mac apps be distributed via the App Store. With GateKeeper you get the benefit of both security and side-loading apps, so no 30% cut to Apple.

 

[RogerWilco6502]

"I can see Apple slowly tightening 'security' so they can get their cut of any app."

That will only happen if Apple requires ALL Mac apps be distributed via the App Store. With GateKeeper you get the benefit of both security and side-loading apps, so no 30% cut to Apple.

Agreed. Almost all of the apps I've ever installed on my Macs have been sideloaded because I don't like the App Store. Apple could lock down app installation now if they wanted to, but they don't.

 

[MikeZTM]

I wasn't saying ARM couldn't be open, but the writing on the wall with T2 chip, SIP and Gatekeeper and Apple only approved apps. It hasn't happened yet, but I sense that is the direction as things get locked down. Have a new 2019 Mac Pro (trapped with Catalina - no going backwards). I have to turn all the security off to run off label unsigned apps - apps that are critical to what we do. I can see Apple slowly tightening 'security' so they can get their cut of any app. The moat is being dredged, the alligators are being hatched. All for your security comrade! ha! Maybe ARM will help compute my Apple 'Social Credit Score...'

The point is all your claim are reasonable but off topic.
Those are for another talk and not related to ARM.

And BTW you can still run anything on your Mac now -- you just need to sign it to silent the warnings. You can even sign by your own.

This security mechanism is only there to make sure nobody downloads not from developer payload to run on your machine from background. It's not for blocking your access to some softwares outside of the AppStore.

 

[MyopicPaideia]

But those statements about the relative performance of ARM vs. Intel CPUs for real-world applications are just assertions. Do you have any data to support them? I'd be very interested to see such ... as you know, that's what I requested in my original post on this subject. It's one thing to look at synthetic benchmarks, and quite another to test actual applications.

I do know that my 11” iPad Pro is faster and smoother in the complex Google Sheets I use daily, using the full in-browser web application (not the crap mobile app that is worse than useless, just like the MS Office mobile apps) than either the 2017 nTB MBP or the quad core i7 Mac mini I was using at work before taking delivery of the iPad Pro.

The sheets I use have multiple tabs of 5000+ lines of multiple field data, utilize several pivot tables, various scripts containing API calls to retrieve and manipulate data from our other ERP tools, import ranges from other equally large sheets, complex formulas, and several dashboard tabs jammed full of charts and visualizations, etc.

It is actually extremely impressive. I wouldn’t touch MS Office (or anything MS for that matter) with a 10 foot pole. I have 100% compatibility with MS Office docs via G Suite none of the BS. Understood that some are forced to use it due to oppressive corporate environments. But that is another discussion.

The point is, there is no reason an ARM MacBook couldn’t do even better with massive complex spreadsheets than then the iPad Pro, given that it would probably have an even better thermal envelope to stretch its legs in, and be spec’d out to take advantage of this with a slightly higher TDP combined with better cooling. If the A series chips are anything to go by, then when they do release this first ARM chip for Mac, it is probably going to be a screamer.

 

[cmaier]

I have 100% compatibility with MS Office docs via G Suite none of the BS.

No, it’s absolutely NOT 100% file-compatible.

 

[MyopicPaideia]

No, it’s absolutely NOT 100% file-compatible.

Yes, quite right, not 100%. Those weird, locked down Excel files that have been shoehorned into being a questionnaire/form (wrong tool for the job is an understatement) typically have problems, and obviously Excel macros vs GSheet scripts don’t translate. But that being said, none of that stuff even works using different versions of Excel!! 🤣 (mobile vs web vs windows vs mac vs xls vs xlxs vs xlsm etc...)

 

[cmaier]

Yes, quite right, not 100%. Those weird, locked down Excel files that have been shoehorned into being a questionnaire/form (wrong tool for the job is an understatement) typically have problems, and obviously Excel macros vs GSheet scripts don’t translate. But that being said, none of that stuff even works using different versions of Excel!! 🤣 (mobile vs web vs windows vs mac vs xls vs xlxs vs xlsm etc...)

Even somewhat complex Word documents don’t survive translation to google docs and back. Anyone who has a job that requires compatibility with word, excel or PowerPoint cannot rely on google docs.

 

[MyopicPaideia]

Wrong thread for this discussion, but half my fault for starting it. We can take it elsewhere if we want to discuss the far too slow and utterly painful dying out of the need to be 100% compatible with MS Office in a modern corporate environment.

The point is, I was attempting an approximation of a real world example in response to a request for such, that even the current A12X ARM processor in the iPad Pro has proven to be more than a match for their Intel laptop and desktop counterparts at professional level spreadsheeting and data visualization (which probably also speaks to how crap Office for Mac is written and optimized as well, which has little to due with architecture, and more to do with OS, and will be similar regardless of architecture, as is the case with the vast majority of software)

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

Apple announced 64-bit support on the Mac at least ten years ago. The writing was on the wall then. Ten years is enough of a transition time for developers and users to get on board. Just because Apple can support 32-bit apps longer than 10 ten years doesn't mean they should. Look at MS - because of a fanatic dedication to backward compatibility they're having trouble moving forward so much so that they literally lost the smartphone wars and were blindsided by the iPad in the tablet market.

I've heard this horse manure many times. That doesn't change the FACT that hundreds of games and other programs no longer work. The amount of work needed to bring some of them up to 64-bit is not worth the developers' time to do so, particularly with games that get high initial sales and then fall off the map. That does NOT mean the consumer never wants to play those games or use that software ever again. Do I now need to keep an older computer around just to run older software? With Windows, the answer is NO. IT JUST WORKS (ironically that is Apple's old slogan which they might as well change to "Don't count on it."

You don’t understand. As long as macOS offers the ability to run 32 bit code, parts of the operating system are running in real mode even if you don’t have any 32 bit apps. That means the processor can not operate fully in long mode regardless of whether you choose to run 32 bit code or not, and it has to operate in a hybrid mode that affects performance of 64 bit code.

rather than attack me personally, maybe stop making engineering claims when you don’t apparently understand how an AMD64 processor works.

So you're talking about a processor the Mac doesn't even use???

Geezus, what kind of GAMES are YOU playing? I don't give a fart about theoretical nonsense. The fact is a TON of software no longer works and it SUCKS. You don't give a crap because you don't use any. Play with your browser and Spotify and leave the real stuff to Windows users I guess.... PATHETIC.

And that's just the 32-bit thing. Now let's dump all x386 code and go ARM so NOTHING WORKS except the browser and Apple's horrible email program..... Let's turn a computer into a phone while we're at it since we all know the iOS versions are so much more powerful than the macOS ones....

I'm a software developer that also doing some graphics work for UI so I do not think I'm a "light" web user as you see here.

I heavily use Xcode, Adobe CC and Visual Studio Code and Postman for development and in fact VS Code and Postman are "browser app" written in javascript.

If you listening Spotify then that's a browser app too.

You gotta be surprises how many app you are using today are in fact "browser apps".

Guess what? I don't use Spotify or any other browser based NONSENSICAL BS you want to run by me. Save your horse manure arguments for someone that gives a damn. The fact remains that ALL these decisions by Apple lately will do NOTHING but KILL SOFTWARE for the "Mac" (which it will no longer be, IMO) which has always had precious little compared to Windows to begin with. If Apple is trying its best to convince me to move to Windows 10, it's doing a DAMN GOOD JOB! PERIOD.
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"Those doing more intensive work (not people who just use canned effects, and templates) will move to PC or linux."

Or, you know, you could just use a Mac Pro.

Having faster hardware won't make software work that developers have abandoned due to Apple changing the architecture for no reasons other than GREED and CONTROL. Or do you think they'll have an emulation layer and you'll need a fully decked out Mac Pro costing tens of thousands of dollars just to run it at the speed the Mac from 2016 could run it?

 

[cmaier]

So you're talking about a processor the Mac doesn't even use???

Geezus, what kind of GAMES are YOU playing? I don't give a fart about theoretical nonsense.

Ok, now I understand - you don’t actually understand this issue. The processor absolutely uses an AMD64 processor. AMD64 is an alternate name for x86-64, which reflects the fact that AMD invented it, not Intel, and that Intel copied it and uses it under license.

What is AMD64? | Webopedia

The AMD64 or x86-64 or x64 is a 64-bit processor architecture invented by AMD.

www.webopedia.com

We called it AMD64 when we invented it because, you know, we were proud of it and wanted our name on it.

As for the rest, I guarantee I use a lot more compute power than you do, and maybe you should take the fact that you didn’t even know that AMD64 refers to the processors we are talking about as a sign that you should go read up on some stuff before yelling at those of us who actually know this stuff.

 

[smulji]

I've heard this horse manure many times. That doesn't change the FACT that hundreds of games and other programs no longer work. The amount of work needed to bring some of them up to 64-bit is not worth the developers' time to do so, particularly with games that get high initial sales and then fall off the map. That does NOT mean the consumer never wants to play those games or use that software ever again. Do I now need to keep an older computer around just to run older software? With Windows, the answer is NO. IT JUST WORKS (ironically that is Apple's old slogan which they might as well change to "Don't count on it."

Assuming Apple is transitioning to ARM, it's clear they're not going after every market in the same manner that MS does with Windows 10. The Mac has four core markets: creative professionals, software developers, enterprise (ie: MS Office), casual users (ie: those who live in the browser). If you don't fall in any one of those, you're SOL. Like it or not, Apple is not going to worry about leaving behind niche developers that have not chosen to keep up to date. Apple's MO is about pushing their platforms forward, not supporting some obscure ten or twenty year-old app.

There's an old saying - you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette.

 

[chucker23n1]

I have 100% compatibility with MS Office docs via G Suite none of the BS.

How? GApps doesn’t even implement a fraction of what Office does.

 

[MikeZTM]

I've heard this horse manure many times. That doesn't change the FACT that hundreds of games and other programs no longer work. The amount of work needed to bring some of them up to 64-bit is not worth the developers' time to do so, particularly with games that get high initial sales and then fall off the map. That does NOT mean the consumer never wants to play those games or use that software ever again. Do I now need to keep an older computer around just to run older software? With Windows, the answer is NO. IT JUST WORKS (ironically that is Apple's old slogan which they might as well change to "Don't count on it."



So you're talking about a processor the Mac doesn't even use???

Geezus, what kind of GAMES are YOU playing? I don't give a fart about theoretical nonsense. The fact is a TON of software no longer works and it SUCKS. You don't give a crap because you don't use any. Play with your browser and Spotify and leave the real stuff to Windows users I guess.... PATHETIC.

And that's just the 32-bit thing. Now let's dump all x386 code and go ARM so NOTHING WORKS except the browser and Apple's horrible email program..... Let's turn a computer into a phone while we're at it since we all know the iOS versions are so much more powerful than the macOS ones....



Guess what? I don't use Spotify or any other browser based NONSENSICAL BS you want to run by me. Save your horse manure arguments for someone that gives a damn. The fact remains that ALL these decisions by Apple lately will do NOTHING but KILL SOFTWARE for the "Mac" (which it will no longer be, IMO) which has always had precious little compared to Windows to begin with. If Apple is trying its best to convince me to move to Windows 10, it's doing a DAMN GOOD JOB! PERIOD.
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Having faster hardware won't make software work that developers have abandoned due to Apple changing the architecture for no reasons other than GREED and CONTROL. Or do you think they'll have an emulation layer and you'll need a fully decked out Mac Pro costing tens of thousands of dollars just to run it at the speed the Mac from 2016 could run it?

So making computer faster and lighter means greed and control right?

Why you want to stick with x86 if all it does is run slower and compatibility to run software that is no longer compatible with current OS?

And remind you: all open source utils are here to stay as almost all of them already runs on Raspberry Pi.
Just grab a Pi 4 and see how many of your daily app still runs on it.

I can not understand why people have no knowledge of programing are arguing with programers how software support will be.

 

[russell_314]

Technology always changes and sometimes this means older hardware and software might not work anymore. Very recently I've seen an older gentleman upset because a store only had USB mice and he wanted a PS/2 one. He ranted about how he just bought the computer and it was all just to get more money from him. My point is you can be bitter and angry when technology changes or just adapt to the new system. Either way the change is inevitable.

 

[Zdigital2015]

I've heard this horse manure many times. That doesn't change the FACT that hundreds of games and other programs no longer work. The amount of work needed to bring some of them up to 64-bit is not worth the developers' time to do so, particularly with games that get high initial sales and then fall off the map. That does NOT mean the consumer never wants to play those games or use that software ever again. Do I now need to keep an older computer around just to run older software? With Windows, the answer is NO. IT JUST WORKS (ironically that is Apple's old slogan which they might as well change to "Don't count on it."



So you're talking about a processor the Mac doesn't even use???

Geezus, what kind of GAMES are YOU playing? I don't give a fart about theoretical nonsense. The fact is a TON of software no longer works and it SUCKS. You don't give a crap because you don't use any. Play with your browser and Spotify and leave the real stuff to Windows users I guess.... PATHETIC.

And that's just the 32-bit thing. Now let's dump all x386 code and go ARM so NOTHING WORKS except the browser and Apple's horrible email program..... Let's turn a computer into a phone while we're at it since we all know the iOS versions are so much more powerful than the macOS ones....



Guess what? I don't use Spotify or any other browser based NONSENSICAL BS you want to run by me. Save your horse manure arguments for someone that gives a damn. The fact remains that ALL these decisions by Apple lately will do NOTHING but KILL SOFTWARE for the "Mac" (which it will no longer be, IMO) which has always had precious little compared to Windows to begin with. If Apple is trying its best to convince me to move to Windows 10, it's doing a DAMN GOOD JOB! PERIOD.
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Having faster hardware won't make software work that developers have abandoned due to Apple changing the architecture for no reasons other than GREED and CONTROL. Or do you think they'll have an emulation layer and you'll need a fully decked out Mac Pro costing tens of thousands of dollars just to run it at the speed the Mac from 2016 could run it?

Apple shipped the first 64-bit version of MacOS X (Tiger) in 2005, and they took 15 years to fully transition completely. Apple was plain and explicit through the years about where they were headed, if you were halfway paying attention.

If you cannot accept that Apple has finally dropped the hammer, then you should move to Windows. After all, it seems like you’re happier being stuck in the past as well.

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

Ok, now I understand - you don’t actually understand this issue. The processor absolutely uses an AMD64 processor. AMD64 is an alternate name for x86-64, which reflects the fact that AMD invented it, not Intel, and that Intel copied it and uses it under license.

What is AMD64? | Webopedia

The AMD64 or x86-64 or x64 is a 64-bit processor architecture invented by AMD.

www.webopedia.com

We called it AMD64 when we invented it because, you know, we were proud of it and wanted our name on it.

As for the rest, I guarantee I use a lot more compute power than you do, and maybe you should take the fact that you didn’t even know that AMD64 refers to the processors we are talking about as a sign that you should go read up on some stuff before yelling at those of us who actually know this stuff.

Wow. Just wow. I won't bother wasting my time any further talking to someone like you. You're smart enough to know what you are by acting like that.

You also KNOW that some slight theoretical speed improvement can't justify ditching hundreds and hundreds of games and other programs (e.g. good luck finding a Photoshop you don't have to RENT to replace one you own, for example). I've seen dumb arguments in my life, but the ones on here take the absolute cake. A new Mac with NO SOFTWARE is a dead Mac. The end is near for the Macintosh and if it means getting rid of the likes of the worthless zombie fanboyz on here forever, I say good riddance! You might have to find a different hobby instead like collecting bottle caps....

Assuming Apple is transitioning to ARM, it's clear they're not going after every market in the same manner that MS does with Windows 10. The Mac has four core markets: creative professionals, software developers, enterprise (ie: MS Office), casual users (ie: those who live in the browser). If you don't fall in any one of those, you're SOL. Like it or not, Apple is not going to worry about leaving behind niche developers that have not chosen to keep up to date. Apple's MO is about pushing their platforms forward, not supporting some obscure ten or twenty year-old app.

Um....so they're not worried about some "developer" but what about CONSUMERS? I should start renting Photoshop because Adobe couldn't be bothered to update to 64-bit? That's MY fault? Geezus. These argument SUCK. You guys can't point to ONE thing worth cutting loose all that software because there are NONE. A bunch of fanboyz that support anything and everything Apple does no matter if it's the death of the Macintosh as we know it.

There's an old saying - you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette.

There's another old saying. You can polish a turd all you want, but it's still a turd.

I've been here since 2006, much longer than most, but I definitely won't miss Apple Kool-Aid drinking mindless zombies after I move to Windows 10 for good. All the goose-stepping to Tim's parade makes me want to vomit.