MacBook Pro 15" 2015 mainly for Windows - which GPU to choose?

[yjchua95]

Thanks for all the insightful answers. The absurdity seem to be that despite the MacBook Pros obvious shortcomings when running Windows I still haven't been able to find a "real" PC laptop that is better then the MBP of running Windows. Or rather, they all seem to have other problems that makes them feel kind of rubish in compressions. Like the XPS13 I'm now typing on, which I'm more and more frustrated with every day. Yes, light and thin but also plastic in comparison with MBP and with horrible quality problems with keyboard, screen etc. Will now require second service run in less than a month.

Noise on the UX501 was ok, didn't really notice it much unless heavy load. But in other regards it simply can not match the MBP or Asus advertisement. Display can't show yellow correctly, speakers are a joke, keyboard is ok but not even close to the one on MacBook Pro. Of course, count in price and it might offer better value but disregard that and I don't hesitate to say that I still prefer the MBP 17" from 2011/2012 to that (which is returned now).

Speaking of which, I've recently gotten my hands on a 2015 15" rMBP (2.8/16/1TB/M370X) and I've been getting about 5-5.5 hours out of it. Which is understandable considering that Windows can only use the dGPU.

Most of the time I use Windows only when I'm plugged in anyway, so battery life doesn't matter to me for Windows.

 

[throAU]

Unless you are doing 3D modelling or something, I'd skip the discrete GPU.

Thats based on the ownership of my 2011 15" with high end GPU, and using various other PC laptops with discrete GPUs in them over the past 10 years or so.

Why? Better battery life, less heat and less fan noise.

Mobile GPUs, even the high end ones are never going to perform anywhere near a desktop GPU and I find them pretty pointless - unless you have some fairly specific usage criteria - which from what you have said, you don't.

Iris Pro will drive a 4k display and play videos on it just fine.

Trying to do much other than basic 3d stuff on a portable machine just doesn't work very well really irrespective of what GPU you put on it.

And yes, especially if you are running Windows on it - the dGPU switching doesn't work (discrete always enabled), so it will just drain the battery a lot quicker...

 

[improwise]

A related question, would it be possible to disable the M370X and thus making the Iris Pro working in Windows? AFAIK, the actual problem here isn't really that Windows can't handle the Iris Pro graphics but that the "Apple BIOS" only reports the M370X to Windows. If the M370X was somehow disabled, that should mean the Iris Pro is available. Of course, it might just be easier getting a MBP without the M370X but I'm curios

 

[improwise]

So, what are the actual difference between battery runtimes in OsX and Windows using the M370X vs Iris pro 5200? It seems obvious that the M370X doesn't do that much extra, but the other question is "how much damage does it do?". If it doesn't add that much but doesn't really hurt anything, it's just a matter of some extra money for it.

 

[yjchua95]

A related question, would it be possible to disable the M370X and thus making the Iris Pro working in Windows? AFAIK, the actual problem here isn't really that Windows can't handle the Iris Pro graphics but that the "Apple BIOS" only reports the M370X to Windows. If the M370X was somehow disabled, that should mean the Iris Pro is available. Of course, it might just be easier getting a MBP without the M370X but I'm curios

Nope you can't. And it's not Apple BIOS. Apple uses a custom implementation of UEFI 2.0.

If the UEFI detects you're booting into Windows and there is a dGPU, the UEFI will disable the Iris Pro. And there isn't any easy way to get around it, unless you know how to rewrite the UEFI and flash it.

On a colleagues's rMBP with Iris Pro only, it gets roughly about 6-6.5 hours on Windows.

On my own 15" rMBP with M370X, I get around 5-5.5 hours doing the same tasks.

 

[throAU]

So, what are the actual difference between battery runtimes in OsX and Windows using the M370X vs Iris pro 5200? It seems obvious that the M370X doesn't do that much extra, but the other question is "how much damage does it do?". If it doesn't add that much but doesn't really hurt anything, it's just a matter of some extra money for it.

Haven't compared with the current model, but the discrete GPU in my 2011 cost me about 3 hours of battery life (7 hrs dropping to 4 or so, doing the same stuff) if it was running vs. turning it off with gfxcardstatus.

On window you can't turn it off.

YMMV with newer hardware.

 

[jlc1978]

Any idea of what performance loss you get these days when running Windows as virtual using Parallells, VM or similar running on MacOS? How well does it work if you have no plans of gaming or similar? My main concern I can think of is sharing of CPU and RAM which you don't have to do with Bootcamp.

I have been running Windows in Parallels, mainly Office and some automotive apps that are Windows only, for quite some time now haven't seen any real speed hit. There are benchmarks that let you compare performance but unless you are doing something that is real graphics or processor intensive you should see no noticeable hit.

If you're running Bootcamp on your Mac you can install trail versions of Fusion / Parallels and see how they work. Keep in mind you're on an older machine so it will be a bit slower than on a new machine. Not sure if a Bootcamp based VM is lower than one installed inside of Mac OS.

 

[dusk007]

A related question, would it be possible to disable the M370X and thus making the Iris Pro working in Windows? AFAIK, the actual problem here isn't really that Windows can't handle the Iris Pro graphics but that the "Apple BIOS" only reports the M370X to Windows. If the M370X was somehow disabled, that should mean the Iris Pro is available. Of course, it might just be easier getting a MBP without the M370X but I'm curios

It is not just what is reported. Part of what gpu-switch does is switch display output. The dgpu and the igpu have seperate display outs. That needs to be swtiched to make it work. You can disable the dgpu all you want all that gets you is a black screen if the display out of the dGPU is turned on and you can only switch that with a restart and that tool.

Basically if you got an Optimus driver working, that would turn of the dGPU. Optimus works by using the iGPU display out always and simple rerouting the framebuffer of the dGPU if that one is turn on. So it can fully shut of the dGPU when not in use. With set_apple_os.efi you have both GPUs active. gpu-switch helps you set the display out of the muxer. dGPU out is default and what even OSX boots up with. OSX is just able to switch it later.
Optimus would later be able to shut down the dGPU. Though as mentioned no idea how to get Optimus going. In Windows notebooks it comes in tandem with the drivers.

 

[improwise]

Nope you can't. And it's not Apple BIOS. Apple uses a custom implementation of UEFI 2.0.

If the UEFI detects you're booting into Windows and there is a dGPU, the UEFI will disable the Iris Pro. And there isn't any easy way to get around it, unless you know how to rewrite the UEFI and flash it.

On a colleagues's rMBP with Iris Pro only, it gets roughly about 6-6.5 hours on Windows.

On my own 15" rMBP with M370X, I get around 5-5.5 hours doing the same tasks.

Just to make sure I didn't get you wrong, you say that you get roughly one extra hour battery time running on Iris Pro 5200 rather than on the AMD M370X? That isn't to much of a difference, noticeable but not night and day difference. Was that on Windows or MacOS? Or both?

 

[improwise]

This might interest you.
I got some info about what to do there.

Yes, this is indeed interesting. If I understand the thread correct, they have actually been able to deactivate the dGPU and acitvated the iGPU and things seem to be working quite well. No graphic switching though and it seems to require some steps to switch back to dGPU, but still, it seems like the dGPU can actually be disabled. Did you have any luck with this?

(Note that this is with the dGPU Nvidia 750M, should be similar with M370X but one never know)

 

[dusk007]

Stopped trying. I mean I can just disable it in the device manager but I am not sure whether that physically shuts down power/ turns it fully off. Optimus would do it. I didn't try everything in the thread. I only took some pointers and am content with being able to get it working. Quick sync is all I really want it for.

 

[cinealta]

So far I've tried the Dell XPS13 2015, the Asus UX501, the MSI GS70 and the Aorus X7 Pro v3

Have you tried a ThinkPad?

 

[improwise]

Have you tried a ThinkPad?

Yes, and they are really the only brand I think can compete with Apple when it comes to quality. Unfortunately, they don't seem to offer a real 15" alternative to the MBP as of now, the closest one I believe is the T550 but that only has a 2 core I5600U CPU if I remember correctly.

 

[yjchua95]

Just to make sure I didn't get you wrong, you say that you get roughly one extra hour battery time running on Iris Pro 5200 rather than on the AMD M370X? That isn't to much of a difference, noticeable but not night and day difference. Was that on Windows or MacOS? Or both?

You got that straight. Both were on Windows.

On OS X, both got about 8.5-9 hours (the M370X variant had the dGPU disabled).

 

[improwise]

You got that straight. Both were on Windows.

On OS X, both got about 8.5-9 hours (the M370X variant had the dGPU disabled).

And this is kind of the "problem", can anyone mention one "real" PC laptop with similar specs to the MBP 15 2015 that can offer better runtimes in Windows? Even with a power sucking AMD card it manages around 5 hours in Windows which is much less than in MacOS but still as good as the best alternatives AFAIK. And a MBP with Iris Pro is probably one of the best if not the best battery lifttime laptop there is with Windows (again, with similar specs).

 

[yjchua95]

And this is kind of the "problem", can anyone mention one "real" PC laptop with similar specs to the MBP 15 2015 that can offer better runtimes in Windows? Even with a power sucking AMD card it manages around 5 hours in Windows which is much less than in MacOS but still as good as the best alternatives AFAIK.

Yup, this is the kind of 'problem'.

I could probably suggest a Lenovo Yoga with a GT 750M, but then it's a crappy system.

 

[wct097]

Have you tried running Windows in a VM? I've gotten to the point where I prefer to do my dev work in VMware. Makes my development "machine" portable across hardware and allows me to use all of the nice features of VM and OS X. Snapshots, time machine, etc.....

OS X is a great VMWare host, in my experience.

 

[dusk007]

If battery life matters so much, hold out till skylake.
With Quad Cores finally going fully SoC all notebooks across the board with show significantly better real life runtimes. Basically as good as Broadwell 2 cores 5500U and such in 15" notebooks.

 

[improwise]

Have you tried running Windows in a VM? I've gotten to the point where I prefer to do my dev work in VMware. Makes my development "machine" portable across hardware and allows me to use all of the nice features of VM and OS X. Snapshots, time machine, etc.....

OS X is a great VMWare host, in my experience.

Not sure if "you" refers to me but if it does, yes, I've considered this (as mentioned above). Problem is that I still prefer Windows to MacOS (please lets not start a debate on that subject) so even if I use VMs, I would prefer to use them on a "Windows host". But if VMs offered a good enough experience, I might consider going that route.

 

[mutaji]

i am also thinking of buying macbook pro/air for mainly windows.which one would be better? and will windows work smooth same as MAC OS?

 

[dusk007]

The Touchpad is severly limited. It does not scroll smoothly (pixel per pixel) but lines at a time like old scroll wheels. It has no multitouch gestures aside from the two finger scroll and secondary mouse click.

 

[wct097]

Not sure if "you" refers to me but if it does, yes, I've considered this (as mentioned above). Problem is that I still prefer Windows to MacOS (please lets not start a debate on that subject) so even if I use VMs, I would prefer to use them on a "Windows host". But if VMs offered a good enough experience, I might consider going that route.

I'm personally a fan of doing almost all of my dev work in a VM. Makes it really easy to switch hardware without losing days to installation and configuration of several IDEs and DBs. Not looking to debate the host OS, just offering up my experience that OSX does a pretty good job as a VM host. It also removes the hardware compatibility issues from the scenario. I use OSX on my MBP, and Windows on my desktop. Both run a flavor of VMWare and my dev work is all done on Windows 7 VMs.

 

[improwise]

I'm personally a fan of doing almost all of my dev work in a VM. Makes it really easy to switch hardware without losing days to installation and configuration of several IDEs and DBs. Not looking to debate the host OS, just offering up my experience that OSX does a pretty good job as a VM host. It also removes the hardware compatibility issues from the scenario. I use OSX on my MBP, and Windows on my desktop. Both run a flavor of VMWare and my dev work is all done on Windows 7 VMs.

Thanks for your feedback. My "lets not fight about it" comment wasn't directed at you, it was to anyone thinking of doing just that

How much storage space do you have on your MBP? I decided to go only for the 512GB version as the 1TB was so much more expensive and I couldn't really see the need for more than 512GB (not dealing with any graphips, videos or simlar) but having a few VMs might change that. On the other hand, having just a Windows VM, especially if it can be used with bootcamp also, shouldn't be a problem.

If I recall correctly, Parallells can run the same Windows installation as BootCamp, is this still true and if so, is this true for VMWare also?

 

[wct097]

Thanks for your feedback. My "lets not fight about it" comment wasn't directed at you, it was to anyone thinking of doing just that

How much storage space do you have on your MBP? I decided to go only for the 512GB version as the 1TB was so much more expensive and I couldn't really see the need for more than 512GB (not dealing with any graphips, videos or simlar) but having a few VMs might change that. On the other hand, having just a Windows VM, especially if it can be used with bootcamp also, shouldn't be a problem.

If I recall correctly, Parallells can run the same Windows installation as BootCamp, is this still true and if so, is this true for VMWare also?

My Mid-2012 has 512gb of space, and I have about 72gb free. I currently have a single VM that I'm using. It takes up about 141gb with snapshots and all. I have two vdisks that I use with it. The C drive is 110gb and the D drive is 10gb. That's my preferred setup. I'm running VS 2008, 2010, 2012, and 2013. Also have Eclipse, SQL 2008 & 2012, Adobe CS4, Inkscape, Quickbooks, Office, IBMCA, Perl, Teradata, and probably a few other things installed as well. I'm pretty tight on space on the VM's C drive (maybe 2gb free), and reserve the D drive for data, source code, and Dropbox.

I originally used VMWare to boot my Bootcamp partition as a VM. It works, but I found that I virtually never booted it in Bootcamp. It seems to me that there were some minor annoyances, but it's been a few years since I used a partition like that. The problem with that setup is twofold. First, you lose the ability to do snapshots since you're not using a virtual disk. Second, you lose the portability, again, because you're not using virtual disks. I just didn't see a lot of value in it, and since my dev work rarely required dGPU or graphics intensive stuff, I decided to switch to using only a dedicated dev VM.

I also use my MBP in OSX for a variety of things. Personal stuff, web browsing, etc. I use RDP rather frequently as well. I don't mind OS X, and actually value things like Time Capsule and the fact that my VM and snapshots are backed up automagically using Time Capsule. The recent versions of VMWare Fusion are specifically designed to better facilitate incremental backups.

No experience with Parallells. I liked the ability to move my VM from OSX to Windows and back. I don't think I could do that with Parallells.

 

[improwise]

I feel that we have basically covered the "battery aspect" of Iris Pro vs M370X but what about heat and fan noise? Since the M370X consumes more energy it produces more heat, but does that mean that that you have more of a problem with fan noise on a M370X system or is it no noticeable difference as long as we are talking about idle or low system load? Personally, I don't really worry that much about an hour more or less battery time since this is a power laptop, but if the fan would kick in all the time it would be more of a problem. I'm mostly interested in Windows use as I assume this isn't really a problem in MacOS.

One thing that puzzles me though, why does it seem to exist a "GPU switch" software for the MacOS since MacOS should be capable of managing switching between GPUs by it self kind of like Optimus on Windows?