That's just an excuse. The Surface Pro type covers are way thinner than any other keyboard out there. Yet it doesn't suffer from wobbly keys like MacBooks do. You press on the outside keys and the key press feel the exact same no matter where on the key you press it. I would be willing to settle for a thicker MBP if it meant it would allow Apple to put in a much better keyboard.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
MacBook Pro M4 Keyboard problems
- Thread starter pavvel
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
That's just an excuse. The Surface Pro type covers are way thinner than any other keyboard out there. Yet it doesn't suffer from wobbly keys like MacBooks do. You press on the outside keys and the key press feel the exact same no matter where on the key you press it. I would be willing to settle for a thicker MBP if it meant it would allow Apple to put in a much better keyboard.
Got my (silver) M4 Pro 14” yesterday. The keyboard is definitely lower quality and noisier than the one on my Intel 16”, but it’s usable for my purposes. If it starts playing up they’ll have to replace it, but I’m sticking with it for now just in case I end up with something worse. Everything else is fine.
If it’s a general issue then they’ll have to do a recall.
If it’s a general issue then they’ll have to do a recall.
I'm about to trade-in my old 16" M1 and I'm playing with it a little before taking it in. The keyboards feel pretty close to me. I think the M1 is slightly crisper, but it's disputable and it's not a clean comparison given that one of them is broken in.
I never tried to seeing if any keys on my M1 rattled more or if some keys sounded different when pressed at the corner.
Now that I have, the answer is yes. Every complaint I read about the M4 keyboard, I'm finding in my M1 keyboard too... but also this: I never noticed it despite 3 years of using it everyday for 10+ hours a day until 2 hours before I'm about to trade it in.
I also probably would never have noticed any of this on my M4 keyboard either, so I'm going to now go back to not noticing it.
I’ve never tried an M1 laptop, but my M4 keyboard definitely feels slightly cheaper, and slightly noisier (particularly the return key) than my Intel 16”, but I never had an issue with the Intel one and doubt I will with the M4. In fact I always thought the Intel keyboard was excellent. This one slightly less so, but I can live with it.
If I hadn’t seen this thread, like you I doubt I’d even have thought about it, and anyway it seems there’s an easy user fix - and we’re guaranteed anyway.
On the plus side everything else is top notch. Ridiculously fast.
Yeah, I just have the same vague feeling that it's slightly lesser, but I can't say for sure. Also, a bit more flex is not necessarily a bad thing. The reason why the butterfly keyboards jammed had to do with how rigid the butterfly stabilizers were. Those things did not wiggle AT ALL so if anything got warped even slightly, they jammed. Keys that have just a little wiggle in them are less likely to jam.
I luckily missed the butterfly keyboards. Actually the best one I’ve used is on my 2012 15” MBP, still rock solid that one 13 years later, though the trackpad’s starting to fail!
OK, I got my hands on one of those. You're right. They have that quality and luxury feel to them. I'm not sure if I like the typing experience on those, but the device itself feels very well made.
The Surface Type covers is one of the best keyboards Ive ever used, I enjoyed using them that much. Even after years of usage, none of the keys on them would get shiny like marbles. And out of the box, there is zero rattling or lose keys. And all the keys felt the exact same when pressed even from different spots on the outer keys.
Apple could learn a thing or two from Microsoft on how to make a thin keyboard properly.
Yeah, I find the closest Apple keyboard to the Surface Pro keyboard to be the iPad cover keyboards and those are atrocious. Reliability issues aside, I actually really liked the butterfly keyboards.
Ooooh, controversial. Me too
I really enjoyed typing on those four 2017 Macbook Pros where I broke the E (and W, and A, and S depending on which one it was) keys before a week has passed since the replacement arrived. It felt good. The M4 keyboard is…mushy in comparison to my M1 Air. I’ll get used to it, but I’d prefer not to have to. The 2017 MBPs were very easy to type on. My 2016 rMB was a bit too much like slamming the desk, but also very, hmm, precise might be the best word for how it felt.I do hope the M4 keyboard just needs to be used for a while, though, because I can’t say I am a huge fan. My wpm doesn’t change, still 86-89 words per minute, but it feels like I need to use a bit more force with the M4. Interestingly, all the reviews say the keyboard hasn’t changed and make me wonder – hasn’t changed since when? M3? M1 Pro? Because it is very decidedly NOT like my M1 Air.
As for the trackpad, I switched off the sound. It makes enough sound when the haptic engine kicks in. But it was surprisingly loud before I switched it off.
I absolutely hated that keyboard at first, but I learned to appreciate it when it nudged me to tweak my typing mechanics and helped me end 10 years of daily hand pain. I know lots of people had the opposite experience where their fingers ached from using that keyboard, but I actually beat chronic typing injuries because of it!Ooooh, controversial. Me too
I really liked how tactile it was. Once I learned how to type at full speed with a much lighter touch, I came to enjoy the feel of that keyboard.
That's funny how you're checking yourself to figure out if you're imagining things. I did the same thing. I took a run on my M1 Pro on Monkeytype and then did the same on my M4 Pro. Like you, I got almost exactly the same results. It was 98-99wpm both times so I can't objectively say one is clearly better or worse.
If my typing speed isn't affected, I'm not going to worry about it much. Most of the time there's a mechanical keyboard on top of my laptop keyboard anyway.
The best way is to avoid using the MacBook keyboard altogether. I mean why use it if we don't have to settle for such poor quality? This is my new mobile set up. It's totally worth carrying around two extra bags for the metal stand and the mechanical keyboard just to avoid using the MacBook one and it's far better for your posture without the neck strain. The keyboard weighs more than the laptop itself.
What's great about this set up is if I want to use two monitors, I can put my 16" portable monitor where the keyboard is and pull the keyboard out. Then I have a two monitor set up. I have a USB-C hub double side velcro taped to the underside off the stand.
Last edited:
This is how I roll when I'm not plugged in at my desk... just not with both keyboards at the same time (obviously). I have one of those low profile keyboards designed to seat right on top of a MBP's keyboard and at other times I have a plexiglass plate that I use to mount a normal sized compact mechanical keyboard.
I mostly use the built-in keyboard only when traveling.
What keyboard is that, that sits on top of the Macbook one? Ive been trying to find one. Does it scratch the keys at all from sitting on top? The NuPhy Air 75 apparently sits on top and fits perfect but its a bit heavy for my liking.
Same here, I will only use the built in keyboard when im not at a desk, otherwise I use a mechanical everytime. Once you go mechanical (especially a fully dampened one in CNC machined aluminum) it's very difficult to go back to any membrane keyboard.
That's the NuPhy Air60HE. It's the same frame as the Air60. It seats on the keyboard well enough. It's about .3lbs lighter than the Air75 going by the product spec sheets.
I'm able to use in an angled position if I'm working from a slightly reclined position. It's tight enough that the keyboard won't slide off, but it will jostle loose if you move the laptop around too fast.
It sems safe to use this way. It's possible that it makes very light contact with the keys, but I don't think the keys or the topcase is in any significant danger of being scratched under normal use. I haven't had any unexpected key presses caused by the keyboard hitting anything below it.
Last edited:
Thanks. I am looking into that one that sits on top. I see that it has kick out feet. When the feet are in it's furthest position does the bottom of the keyboard completely clear the macbook keys or does it still touch the keys? I may have to order this, this is what ive been looking for the past few months. $280CAD here if ordered on Amazon.ca, not cheap. More than what I paid for TWO of my current full dampened keyboards lol.
I didnt get the Air 60 because I use the right shift key all the time over the left shift and I need a full sized right shift key. It's very difficult to find a 60-75% keyboard that still has a full sized right shift key.
Last edited:
I'm not sure if they completely clear the keys, but I if they don't, the underside of the keyboard would barely be in contact with the keys. The rubber ridges that anchor the keyboard are about 1mm deep and they're pretty solid and slightly grippy. At least when it's brand new, I don't think you need to worry about it.
Ouch! Is there a reason why it costs so much for this in Canada? That's way beyond what can be explained by factoring in the exchange rate from the US pricing.
Ah, I didn't realize the normal Air60 has a slightly different layout than the Air60HE. The HE version has a full sized shift key, but no arrow keys.
Another thing to be aware of regarding the Air60HE is that both of the switches that it comes with are on the light side and you can only use magnetic switches on it so you'll be limited in how you can customize it. I have the regular Jades and I wish I had gone with the slightly heavier Jade Pros. With the regular Jades, I can rest my fingers on the keys, but barely.
Another keyboard I like using with my laptop is a Epomaker NT68 (aka Skyloong NT68). It's low profile, takes regular low profile switches and is sized exactly perfectly so that the rubber feet on the bottom of it land only on the laptop frame. I got this to pair with my iPad, but I discovered that it fits so well on my laptop that I use it there more often.
I haven't seen these on sale in a while unfortunately, but they should come in a lot cheaper than a NuPhy Air60HE. The BT connectivity in it is pretty bad though. I mostly use it wired or I lose keystrokes too often.
Last edited:
Wow thanks for the pics for reference. The Nuphy is an interesting keyboard. The only thing I don't like is that the keyboard on top covers the speaker grills and it doesn't line up perfectly with the MacBook keyboard. I guess another thing you could do is find a material that works as a stand and will hold a mechanical keyboard sitting slightly above the MacBook. This way you could use any keyboard you wanted. I think I would really miss the arrow keys on the Nuphy.
That price of $280CAD is from amazon. I guess Nuphy inflated the price on there to cover Amazons cost after they take their cut. I read too many horror stories of people who have bought from Nuphy directly. Apparently they do not accept returns once the package has been opened. So if I buy it, I would have to get it from amazon just for the return policy in case I don't like it.
The effect on the sound quality is minor. I actually wouldn't have noticed a difference if I weren't looking for it. It doesn't cover the speaker holes entirely, the angle I took the photo from makes the keyboard look wider than it is. On my 14" MBP the footprint encroaches about half a centimeter on both sides.
Also here's a side view of how the NuPhy sits on top. It's not so snug of a fit that it's a major obstruction on the sound.
OK, this is interesting. One of my alternate setups with the plexiglass plate is close to what you described here. I have hard rubber feet on the plexiglass plate giving me about 2-3mm of clearance. The sound just bounces out from underneath the keyboard. It sounds pretty equivalent to when I have the Air60HE mounted on top, which is to say... minimal.
BUT, if I lift the keyboard so that the plexiglass is now about 1 inch above the keyboard, the sound gets a bit echoey. Once there's about 2 inches of clearance, the echo effect largely goes away. Incidentally, the plexiglass plate I'm using is almost the exact width of the NuPhy Air60 so I think I can say that as long as the speaker grille isn't covered entirely or covered tightly, it won't change the sound quality much.
I've long since adapted to using shortcut driven arrows, but I still like having a left and right arrow key for my photography work. On the NuPhy boards, modifier keys are regular keys that can be remapped to anything so I have the right Win and Option keys mapped to left and right arrows. The bigger issue for me is that there's no ~ key!
I can confirm they're not the tightest operation. Fortunately, it was to my benefit. They sent me some extra stuff I didn't order. I offered to return it if they could make it easy for me to send it back, but they never got back to me.
Last edited:
Thanks for showing this, that's better than I was expecting. So the bottom of the Nuphy does clear the MacBook keyboard by a good amount. Is this with the feet raised?
Im not even sure where you would find such a thing. I've seen monitor stands/risers that have the exact same concept but they will be far too big for a MacBook. I will look into your plexiglass plate. I can live with highly muffled sounds from the speakers in exchange for being able to use a mechanical keyboard on top.
Im sure I could get used to using a shortcut key to access the arrow keys since the keyboard would only be used when out of the house. I really like the look of the HE60. I would order on amazon just to have the 30 day return policy, so I would have to pay the extra $100 for this benefit.
I wish more manufacturers would come out with keyboards that are made to sit on top of a laptop keyboard. They are few and far between which is unfortunate. If more were available, Im sure that more laptop users would love to use a keyboard on top of their crappy laptop keyboard and be willing to pay for it. I know I would be willing to pay for it because laptop keyboards just don't compare to a mechanical keyboard.
Yup, the feet are folded away. If the feet were out, it'd be obvious and the keyboard wouldn't seat so cleanly.
I wouldn't say it clears by a good bit though. It's not flush against the frame, but there's not much room either. It's hard to photograph this in a clear way since the distances are small. Even a tiny change in the angle of the photo gives a different impression.
I've been expecting some kind of external keyboard mount for laptops to appear on the market for years. I was about to give up and go to the hardware store to buy a sheet of plexiglass and get someone to trim it for me when I made one last attempt to find a suitable product and I saw this:
Kado Lift Riser Acrylic for External Keyboard, Frosted Transparent, Office Gaming Laptop Keyboard Cover Mechanical 40%/60%/65%/70% Stand Holder Made for MacBook Air/Pro 13"/14"/15"/16"
Kado by Sceptre Lift Riser Acrylic for External Keyboard, Frosted Surface Transparent, Office Gaming Laptop Keyboard Cover Mechanical 40%/60%/65%/70% Stand Holder Made for MacBook Air/Pro 13"/14"/15"/16"
www.amazon.ca
Although, I again have to comment that pricing is seriously inflated. It's only $10(US) in the States. You'll also want to buy some industrial strength velcro to mount your choice of keyboard. The plate might come with rubber feet that are too tiny to be useful. I ended up ordering slightly wider and taller ones to help keep the plate from sliding.
I think we're finally starting to see more now that there's a growing range of options for low profile switches.
As an Amazon Associate, MacRumors earns a commission from qualifying purchases made through links in this post.
..its interesting, I know this is a MBP thread but I picked up an M4 13" Air and I feel the keyboard is tighter and a little* bit noisier (different acoustic 'thunk') than my M2 15" Air which I still have to directly compare.
The right command button feels slightly looser than the other one, but overall the keyboard feels tighter and punchier than my 15" which has a bit of a squishy feeling (but still overall quite clicky just without being as loud if you touch but don't press the keys as I've seen described in some posts and shown in some videos, the ever so slight squishiness is just something I've been used to for past 1.5 years... I am somewhat familiar with overly squishy Mac keyboards which is generally not my preference at all, feels hard to type on getting keys to register).
I don't think it's worth playing the swap game or anything, especially since I got it for $850 as a micro center price match but it is interesting. I could see how the more extreme versions of this would be problematic especially on a 3k computer.
it reminds me a lot of the Magic Keyboard I have for my 2021 M1 11" iPad Pro. But not exactly.
The right command button feels slightly looser than the other one, but overall the keyboard feels tighter and punchier than my 15" which has a bit of a squishy feeling (but still overall quite clicky just without being as loud if you touch but don't press the keys as I've seen described in some posts and shown in some videos, the ever so slight squishiness is just something I've been used to for past 1.5 years... I am somewhat familiar with overly squishy Mac keyboards which is generally not my preference at all, feels hard to type on getting keys to register).
I don't think it's worth playing the swap game or anything, especially since I got it for $850 as a micro center price match but it is interesting. I could see how the more extreme versions of this would be problematic especially on a 3k computer.
it reminds me a lot of the Magic Keyboard I have for my 2021 M1 11" iPad Pro. But not exactly.
Last edited:
I'd say a lot of it is simply due to manufacturing tolerance.
Machinery to build the keyboards gets used, tolerances drift (still within "spec" but one end or the other) and then the production line gets re-tooled once it is at the edge of spec and repeat.
I'd say that's likely far more to do with the observed differences from machine to machine with the same base design than anything else.