MacBook vs Surface Pro 4

[Queen6]

I returned two i5 SP4 after trying to go back to MS after over a decade using exclusively Apple. I like Satya Nadella, like the way they are thinking and the products look great in the presentations but I found in practice the MS experience was terrible (save for the excellent in-store customer service). SP4 screens suffered from light bleed, I had random screen freezes, the graphics driver bugs, keyboard attach / detach freezes, BSOD and other unacceptable issues (edit: including woeful battery life - nowhere near as advertised). Kickstand was great in a lot of situations but not too comfortable or stable on the lap as a laptop. The whole keyboard/surface/kickstand arrangement felt a little bit cobbled together, a bit Heath Robinson if you will. I found windows 10 to be a step backwards from OS X - it's a lot better than the windows of old but there are still way to many features which do not work or are half-hearted attempts compared with OS X, in my opinion. Applications would quit, freeze and generally just not work as advertised. When everything worked it was great, I just had no confidence in the product and the safety of my data and felt like I was back to being my own IT support guy when all I wanted was to get on with creating.

As an aside, I tried to switch everything over to MS this month but every single new MS product let me down - Band 2 haptic gave up three days in, second Band 2 screen froze and had to be replaced, Lumia 950 was very disappointing, Xbox Elite controller was popping, creaking and randomly disconnecting from the console (as did its replacement). W10 services didn't work as well or reliably as equivalent OS X ones for me. I even asked the rep in the Microsoft Store if I replaced the SP4 with a Surface Book if my experience would be different - the answer was nope, these have issues too. MS is there superficially for me but in practice it all feels a bit low rent, unfinished and disappointing.

On the other hand, the rMB outperforms it's specs IMHO. I much prefer the keyboard over any other I have tried and the screen is fantastic (I did change the resolution to get more screen real estate). Photoshop and Lightroom fly on this thing for every day tasks. MS Office for Mac works even better than Pages - a 50,000 word document scrolls fast and smooth in Word but gives the occasional checkerboard in Pages when scrolling at the same speed. FCPX and Logic work great for editing. I do see it bogging down when exporting movie projects, generating image previews and suchlike but the Surfaces did that too and I don't have to have these things happen instantly anyway. It still works for those kind of tasks but it just takes longer. I even had a 36 track music project running in Ableton Live with no issues (but a few computationally heavy convolution reverbs in Logic will stump it quickly).

The only second thoughts I get are when I go online and read other people's criticism of it but in practice it's a lot better than it should be. It has done everything I have asked of it and has looked and felt amazing while doing so. I'm by no means impressed by Apple and Tim Cook these days or some of the directions they are taking bu this little notebook rocks. In my opinion and experience. Hope this helps.

I agree with much of this; As much as Apple is criticised for it`s 1st Gen products, they do tend to do a better job than others. Personally I don't plan on picking up a SP4 until mid Q1 2016. This way MS will have time to time to settle down it`s contractors. Windows is what it is, realistically for MS to fix everything would be a monumental task, given the complexity and user base. Personally I prefer OS X, equally for me it`s being going in the wrong direction for several years. What I find with Windows is that it`s an absolute "pig " to set up, however once you have it working the way you want, it`s relatively trouble free.

As for the rMB totally agree very much more than the sum of it`s components. As for Apple & Tim Cook it`s all about money, sadly Apple`s mantra has changed for the worse;

"Here’s to the crazy ones. The rebels. The troublemakers. The ones who see things differently. While some may see them as the crazy ones, we see genius. Because the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world, are the ones who do."

Lost thoughts on Apple of today as it only serves up only the expected; bigger, faster, more. Apple is in a prime position to set the pace, yet they only continue to churn out more of the same...

Q-6

 

[SteveJUAE]

Confused (obviously) I thought the SP4 was the next-gen Surface Book? Aren't they both convertibles with detachable keyboards?

BJ

Yes

The Surface Pro 4 (SP4) is the 4th gen little 12" 2lbs with everything in the screen with a kickstand and a detachable KB in M,I5,I7 128 to 1T SDD and 4-16gb RAM depending on selections and has 6-8 hrs battery life, footprint wise not dissimilar to our rMB's

The SB (Surface Book) is the 1st gen monster 3.4lbs with extra batteries and GPU in the detachable KB using the strange looking hinge I5,I7 128 to 1T SDD and 8-16gb Ram depending on selections and has 10-12 hrs battery life, but only 2-3 when detached. footprint wise not dissimilar to a MBP and a bit cheaper than the quad core Vaio canvas

Both seem to have had 1st day blues with drivers but much of this has been ironed out with an update recently but some still persist to some degrees but give it a few months and all should be good not unlike our rMB's

There was a lot of chat on the previous Surface Pro 3 as the high end models suffered with thermal throttling, this seems not present in the new SP4 (especially 17/16gb configs) but some found with high end games mainly that power throttling occurred but can be gotten around with good games that allows limiting frame rates to 60 or for those tweakers under volting the CPU, but these are for those who are trying a bit to hard with a portable device of this type IMO. But if you wan't to judge how capable the SP4 is using games it's showing it quite capable in some respects.

 

[boltjames]

Yes

The Surface Pro 4 (SP4) is the 4th gen little 12" 2lbs with everything in the screen with a kickstand and a detachable KB in M,I5,I7 128 to 1T SDD and 4-16gb RAM depending on selections and has 6-8 hrs battery life, footprint wise not dissimilar to our rMB's

The SB (Surface Book) is the 1st gen monster 3.4lbs with extra batteries and GPU in the detachable KB using the strange looking hinge I5,I7 128 to 1T SDD and 8-16gb Ram depending on selections and has 10-12 hrs battery life, but only 2-3 when detached. footprint wise not dissimilar to a MBP and a bit cheaper than the quad core Vaio canvas

Both seem to have had 1st day blues with drivers but much of this has been ironed out with an update recently but some still persist to some degrees but give it a few months and all should be good not unlike our rMB's

There was a lot of chat on the previous Surface Pro 3 as the high end models suffered with thermal throttling, this seems not present in the new SP4 (especially 17/16gb configs) but some found with high end games mainly that power throttling occurred but can be gotten around with good games that allows limiting frame rates to 60 or for those tweakers under volting the CPU, but these are for those who are trying a bit to hard with a portable device of this type IMO. But if you wan't to judge how capable the SP4 is using games it's showing it quite capable in some respects.

Thanks so much, I'll edit the original post so as to not cause confusion.

BJ

 

[brentsg]

After a few months, the SP4 might be as stable as an Apple product at launch. I also had issues with the Band like a poster here. I tried to go with 2 of MS new products just to get a pair of duds.

 

[burgman]

After a few months, the SP4 might be as stable as an Apple product at launch. I also had issues with the Band like a poster here. I tried to go with 2 of MS new products just to get a pair of duds.

You can't be serious, calling Apple products stable at launch. Sorry, History is so against that opinion

 

[brentsg]

You can't be serious, calling Apple products stable at launch. Sorry, History is so against that opinion

I've been using their products most of my life and I haven't experienced anything remotely resembling the SP4 that I just returned. Apple users are just spoiled by the state of Apple's launches.

BSOD, display driver crashes every few minutes, power loss of 10% per hour while asleep, screen flickering like mad from hyper--v issues, then continuing to strobe if maximum brightness wasn't desired at all times (after hyper-get was turned off via command line). The device mercifully bricked itself when MS instructed me to wipe and reinstall Windows.

Any product can have issues, but I've not witnessed Apple launching a product in a borderline unusable state. The MS apologists just kept promising that these things are normal and that most problems would get ironed out in a few months... Or that Intel or Win 10 was to blame. Sorry, I needed it for work now. Silly me for thinking a 4th iteration device would work right away.

 

[leedy]

I've been using their products most of my life and I haven't experienced anything remotely resembling the SP4 that I just returned. Apple users are just spoiled by the state of Apple's launches.

BSOD, display driver crashes every few minutes, power loss of 10% per hour while asleep, screen flickering like mad from hyper--v issues, then continuing to strobe if maximum brightness wasn't desired at all times (after hyper-get was turned off via command line). The device mercifully bricked itself when MS instructed me to wipe and reinstall Windows.

Any product can have issues, but I've not witnessed Apple launching a product in a borderline unusable state. The MS apologists just kept promising that these things are normal and that most problems would get ironed out in a few months... Or that Intel or Win 10 was to blame. Sorry, I needed it for work now. Silly me for thinking a 4th iteration device would work right away.

Your experience is identical to mine, except my SP4 came with a crooked chassis and severe light bleed (which many claim is "normal" for all ips displays).
Sad thing is, I keep visiting the Surface forums daily to check if the issues have been resolved. I'm honestly really thinking of trying it again. Apple is taking way too long in updating their devices, and (now that rumors point to a June 2016 release) I feel I'll go crazy before they release it. Their silence makes it 100x more maddening.

 

[Queen6]

Your experience is identical to mine, except my SP4 came with a crooked chassis and severe light bleed (which many claim is "normal" for all ips displays).
Sad thing is, I keep visiting the Surface forums daily to check if the issues have been resolved. I'm honestly really thinking of trying it again. Apple is taking way too long in updating their devices, and (now that rumors point to a June 2016 release) I feel I'll go crazy before they release it. Their silence makes it 100x more maddening.

Personally I am waiting on both camps, Microsoft to address the QC concerns for the SP4 and to see what Apple release, although they are now beyond predictable for the Mac...

Q-6

 

[SteveJUAE]

Personally I am waiting on both camps, Microsoft to address the QC concerns for the SP4 and to see what Apple release, although they are now beyond predictable for the Mac...

Q-6

Like you I don't have access to this 14/30 day try and return policy the chaps have mainly in the US

So I tend to be a little more patient when I buy a new release and so not prone to give up so easily

Having said that all OEM's seem to struggle putting out new release and Windows PC's/Laptops seem to get more bad reports but given the size and permutations of the user base it's a little understandable

As most of these fixes end up being driver/software issues I don't mind what I dislike is these reports of failing parts and KB's etc. These are entirely in the hands of the OEM's and Apple seem no better than any other on these which is the real shame IMO

 

[Macalway]

I've been using their products most of my life and I haven't experienced anything remotely resembling the SP4 that I just returned. Apple users are just spoiled by the state of Apple's launches.

BSOD, display driver crashes every few minutes, power loss of 10% per hour while asleep, screen flickering like mad from hyper--v issues, then continuing to strobe if maximum brightness wasn't desired at all times (after hyper-get was turned off via command line). The device mercifully bricked itself when MS instructed me to wipe and reinstall Windows.

Any product can have issues, but I've not witnessed Apple launching a product in a borderline unusable state. The MS apologists just kept promising that these things are normal and that most problems would get ironed out in a few months... Or that Intel or Win 10 was to blame. Sorry, I needed it for work now. Silly me for thinking a 4th iteration device would work right away.

You had a bad machine. This is not the norm.

 

[leedy]

You had a bad machine. This is not the norm.

Unfortunately, it seems that it is. Even Microsoft apologists are admitting to bugs and software issues, including constant display driver crashes, BSOD, battery drain on sleep, etc..

Overall, a botched launch by Microsoft and they should learn from their mistakes.

 

[SteveJUAE]

Unfortunately, it seems that it is. Even Microsoft apologists are admitting to bugs and software issues, including constant display driver crashes, BSOD, battery drain on sleep, etc..

Overall, a botched launch by Microsoft and they should learn from their mistakes.

I know you personally had a hard time but you can read the same/similar postings here on rMB release with bad batteries, screens, KB, power bricks etc etc. One chap retuned his rMB 16 times

All OEM's are the same to some degree or another unfortunately and that's why many are not early adapters and wait for the 1st round or two of fix's.

The same goes for OS's be it El capitan or Win 10

Same crap just different logo

 

[brentsg]

You had a bad machine. This is not the norm.

I closely followed enough forums to see that it was common. I wasn't having unique issues.

 

[JeremyMignolet]

I'm gonna shout out my opinion also, because I ran into the same issues as most of us and dillema as the TS.

I pre-ordered the SP4 here in Belgium, and the release date was set to be the 19th of november. So it's only been 10 days that I own this SP4. I came from a rMBP 15" i5, 16GB RAM & 256GB SSD. Wonderfull machine ( the Macbook ), and I gave Windows a chance .. Again. I use W10 as my main desktop computer cause it's more powerfull and easier to edit videos or for gaming.

The SP4 was mainly for school, taking notes during classes, but less for gaming & stuff. And I ran into the same issues: display driver crashes, mouse cursor doesnt' want to move, random freezes, black light bleeding.. And I'm also seeing these issues on several forums, so I clearly didn't have a "bad" product shipped. There are all havin' these problems.

So I decided to return mine yesterday, and went getting a MacBook 1,1 and I'm once again in love with it. It's nowhere near the performance of my old rMBP or the SP4. But it just works. Doing some photoshop while having word running in the background + safari works flawlessly.

I didn't had any issues at product launches from Apple, so it must be bad luck for those who had issues. But isn't it weird that everyone is having issues with the SP4 ? Anyways, i'm sure it's a good, well built product , but the software running on it isn't stable yet. Cause that's the excuse windows is saying: we can fix it with software updates.

And how many times am I having the notification: " Couldn't install updates properly ". Sigh ..

 

[maflynn]

But isn't it weird that everyone is having issues with the SP4 ?

I haven't read that, I know there were some issues, but I've come across various posts, threads on the internet where many people love their SP4. I'm not surprised the majority of people here at MacRumors don't like the SP4, since we're an Apple site, but overall, I don't think (imo) the SP4 is very problematic. Perhaps I'm living under a rock since I have an SP3 and I haven't fully interacted on sites regarding that SP4.

 

[brvhrt]

From what I can see the SP4 / SB issues are affecting everyone, it's just that some are more tolerant of the glitches and are prepared to wait for a fix (if it comes). And lets be clear...these are show stopping problems causing freezing, BSOD, etc. Reddit, surfaceforums, etc all have the same kind of posts. My local Microsoft Store employees all tell me it's known issues, not an intermittent thing. I also see that some people do a software update, post that the problems are fixed then a few hours later....nope still happening. Some of it will get fixed, some of it won't but on that front MS are asking you to spend Apple money+ to use a flawed product and trust them that it will get fixed. And then there are the everyday glitches that Windows has that people learn to fix themselves (drivers ,etc). In over a decade of Apple products I can't remember ever having to mess around with the OS to get something to work.

I'm a long time Apple user but would love to switch to MS - I find the corporate hubris exhibited by Apple these days to be nauseating at times. A healthy bit of competition keeps everyone honest. However, right now it is the less frustrating in terms of reliability for me and by quite a bit.

Bottom line is that for the second year running MS release a bunch of interesting looking products which fall way short in practice. I'd say this year was worse than last year, maybe because the expectations were higher. It's the second year I gave them a chance and it was a bust. It's all very disappointing. Just my opinion.

 

[JeremyMignolet]

I haven't read that, I know there were some issues, but I've come across various posts, threads on the internet where many people love their SP4. I'm not surprised the majority of people here at MacRumors don't like the SP4, since we're an Apple site, but overall, I don't think (imo) the SP4 is very problematic. Perhaps I'm living under a rock since I have an SP3 and I haven't fully interacted on sites regarding that SP4.

Well I'm guessing most of the people are having issues, since Windows have said themselves that there are software issues. Take the graphic display issue, it's software related. Impossible that it only comes accross 10% of the devices.

I'm also following a dutch forum, where everyone pre-orderd and waited impatiently to recieve the SP4. Some of them are happy, I can assure u that, but they are also facing the problems. Some people don't bother with them ( just like me after a while, cause that graphic display issue just kept on coming so hey u get used to it ), and some do.

But I agree that we're on a Apple website here, but I'm trying to be as objective as I can be.

 

[maflynn]

Well I'm guessing most of the people are having issues

Some of them are happy

Not to sound like a jerk, but you said everyone is having problems with the SP4 which is not the case. I'm not trying to diminish the issues with the SP4 because people are having problems, but not just everyone

 

[JeremyMignolet]

Not to sound like a jerk, but you said everyone is having problems with the SP4 which is not the case. I'm not trying to diminish the issues with the SP4 because people are having problems, but not just everyone

Yeah I might have been too enthusiastic by saying "everyone", but u get the picture. There are a lot of people having problems. And ofcourse I find that sad, cause it is a good product. And MS is getting so innovative these last few years. So I wasn't even hesitating switching my rMBP for the SP4. But now I had to switch back.

 

[SteveJUAE]

Not to sound like a jerk, but you said everyone is having problems with the SP4 which is not the case. I'm not trying to diminish the issues with the SP4 because people are having problems, but not just everyone

You are correct these are not happening to all and I have been reading reddit and windowscentral to get a feel for this pending my SP4 I7 delevery

A lot of these are not show stoppers ie back camera not working, now fixed, some flashing screen issues seem to do with using edge for some, some have battery issues but seems this is more related to using sleep instead of hibernate, same problem on rMB. Some others have KB start up issues or pen synching but after several updates by far the majority are moving forward

Obviously a few have serious problems but no different to number of rMB owners we see here with hardware issues IMO

By far though most are amazed by the product and are persisting there will always be those more verbal on the failures that's the nature of these forums

 

[Queen6]

I know you personally had a hard time but you can read the same/similar postings here on rMB release with bad batteries, screens, KB, power bricks etc etc. One chap retuned his rMB 16 times

All OEM's are the same to some degree or another unfortunately and that's why many are not early adapters and wait for the 1st round or two of fix's.

The same goes for OS's be it El capitan or Win 10

Same crap just different logo

This: Completely agree, Apple has more that it`s fair share of issues past & present; failing dGPU for multiple generations of notebooks, Wi-Fi, throttling, image retention, discoloured displays, batteries, keyboards, chargers, OS X, the list goes on.

What needs to happen is the consumer to send a clear message to companies that such poor levels of design & quality control are not acceptable, not defend them on line. If I buy cheap I expect cheap, if I pay premium price my expectations are equally high. In this case both Apple & Microsoft as premium providers of hardware/software need to get their houses in order...

Q-6

 

[Serban]

overall, how many macbooks is Apple selling as nr1 generation and how many surface pro 4 is Microsoft
its more likely that apple has more issues because is selling in millions while surface not so many, so the possibility are higher on apple part.
Now, i had a surface book for 1 week, i have a high premium glass desk, and after some time working with surface book in laptop mode, it scratched almost all of desk surface because of that bad hinge that is touching the surface when the lid is open! This will not be fixed until generation 2. Apple did not make any of these mistake in design.

 

[SteveJUAE]

overall, how many macbooks is Apple selling as nr1 generation and how many surface pro 4 is Microsoft
its more likely that apple has more issues because is selling in millions while surface not so many, so the possibility are higher on apple part.
Now, i had a surface book for 1 week, i have a high premium glass desk, and after some time working with surface book in laptop mode, it scratched almost all of desk surface because of that bad hinge that is touching the surface when the lid is open! This will not be fixed until generation 2. Apple did not make any of these mistake in design.

Whilst there is no evidence to support numbers of sales of rMB vs Surface as rMB has been on sale a few months longer than the new surface range there should be more units around

However the number of people complaining of KB issues with keys failing/sticking etc etc is equally alarming if not more so as it renders the laptop useless and if it's a latent design error similarly it will not be fixed to 2nd gen, fortunately my rMB has not suffered from this, yet and to counter this I may well get Applecare which I have never purchased before with all my other Mac's.

As I said before they are all the same to some degree or another, unfortunately for us

 

[whodatrr]

I have an SP3, a new XPS 13, and an rMB. Of these, one will have to go: so, I'm probably selling my SP3. I do need one mobile Windows and one Mac system.

Don't get me wrong - I love the SP3! I just now find that the XPS 13 does most of what it does better, though I will miss the tablet capabilities. My rMB is, however, my most used mobile system. It's plenty fast enough for everything the OP described. That Mobile CPU is way better than critics tout it to be. Battery life is good, and the form factor is amazing. You'll be happy with your rMB.

I'd keep my SP3, if I hadn't gotten the new XPS 13. this little machine is a gem, and it helps that it now shares a USB-C port, with my rMB, as that will be my docking system of choice.

 

[Macalway]

There are a few problems with the SP4, compared to the SP3. I do expect these to be fixed soon.