Macintosh Plus External Drive Recognition Issue

[HunterCupp]

Hello, all.

My SCSI Terminator came in today, so I decided to try it out.

Everything you see in the video is happening for the first time. I didn't try anything else before recording.

I'm not sure what the problem could be.


VIDEO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RedFCf_78Qs

Thanks,
-Hunter

 

[HunterCupp]

Hello, all.

Something interesting happened after I kept the drive on, and then inserted a boot floppy.

After it booted to the desktop, the drive started blinking again, then stopped about 15 seconds later. A text box then came up reading "This disk is unreadable: Do you want to initialize it?"

I've only seen this happen with floppy disks before and became confused. I assumed there was something wrong with my floppy disk and clicked on the 'Eject' option, but nothing happened.

Could this mean that it may be talking about the drive?

Thanks,
-Hunter

 

[smithrh]

Boy, it's been a while since I used that configuration... 1987 maybe?

The SCSI terminator goes at the end of the SCSI chain (it terminates the chain). If I saw the video right, you have it in the middle of the chain.

There should be 2 SCSI connectors on the hard drive. Put the terminator on one of them and connect the Mac to the other.

 

[HunterCupp]

Boy, it's been a while since I used that configuration... 1987 maybe?

The SCSI terminator goes at the end of the SCSI chain (it terminates the chain). If I saw the video right, you have it in the middle of the chain.

There should be 2 SCSI connectors on the hard drive. Put the terminator on one of them and connect the Mac to the other.

Hello, smithrh!

I did as you asked, with unfortunately no change!

VIDEO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUXHHYnxFEk

Thanks,
-Hunter

 

[bunnspecial]

I would write-protect your boot floppy(or make a copy and boot from that) just to be on the safe side, and then let it try to initialize the disk. If it's attempting to initialize the hard drive, you will lose any data on it but it should at least be readable after that.

 

[HunterCupp]

I would write-protect your boot floppy(or make a copy and boot from that) just to be on the safe side, and then let it try to initialize the disk. If it's attempting to initialize the hard drive, you will lose any data on it but it should at least be readable after that.

bunnspecial

I did as you suggested. When I clicked 'Initialize', the drive started blinking, again. It gave me the option to rename, so I named it "Macintosh HD", and the blinking stopped after I confirmed the rename.

I assumed the drive would show on the desktop immediately, but it didn't. I restarted the system, always turning the drive off last. I turned the drive on, waited a minute, then the Mac, and the exact same thing that has been happening continued.

It still attempts to boot from the drive, showing the 'Happy Mac' icon, followed by a 'blink' of the screen, then the 'No Disk' icon.

I am totally lost.

Thanks,
-Hunter

EDIT
------
When I booted from a floppy again, the whole thing where the drive is unreadable and needs to be initialized thing happens, again. I'm assuming the initializing process is failing?

 

[David Schmidt]

When I booted from a floppy again, the whole thing where the drive is unreadable and needs to be initialized thing happens, again. I'm assuming the initializing process is failing?

Sounds that way to me. Literally and figuratively. That drive doesn't sound happy, and it's not able to hold on to the bits it had or the new ones you're trying to push at it.

 

[smithrh]

Sounds that way to me. Literally and figuratively. That drive doesn't sound happy, and it's not able to hold on to the bits it had or the new ones you're trying to push at it.

Agreed. If that's not fan noise, then it's probably pining for the fjords.

OP did everything I remember from that era:

Mess with SCSI termination
Power up the hard drive and have it up and running before powering on the Mac
Try a few more times

Sometimes the SCSI drives also needed an address. Is there a DIP switch or other numbered switch on the HD at all? If so, change the SCSI address and try again.

 

[HunterCupp]

Sometimes the SCSI drives also needed an address. Is there a DIP switch or other numbered switch on the HD at all? If so, change the SCSI address and try again.

smithrh

I'm assuming you mean the thing on the back with the roll of numbers that goes from 0-9. I'll try changing it around and see if that does anything. It's currently on 9.

Thanks,
- Hunter

 

[MacTech68]

Really time for SCSIProbe and "Norton Emergency Disk".

At this stage, everything else is guess-work, sadly.

Has the MacClassic arrived yet?

I don't recall if this drive really needs it's original driver or not.

Even a FWB Hard Disk Toolkit read/write test might be in order.

 

[smithrh]

smithrh

I'm assuming you mean the thing on the back with the roll of numbers that goes from 0-9. I'll try changing it around and see if that does anything. It's currently on 9.

Thanks,
- Hunter

9?

It should only be from 0-7, 8 positions. Hmmmm...

Yes, try 0-6. 7 should be for the Mac itself, IIRC.

 

[HunterCupp]

Really time for SCSIProbe and "Norton Emergency Disk".

At this stage, everything else is guess-work, sadly.

Has the MacClassic arrived yet?

I don't recall if this drive really needs it's original driver or not.

Even a FWB Hard Disk Toolkit read/write test might be in order.

MacTech68

Im up for anything that might work!

Unfortunately, I was unable to arrange a date that worked for me and the seller of the Classic. Although you would not believe my luck! I have a few thrift shops near by and am always checking for old computers or anything of interest, and you would not believe what I found. A Macintosh Classic!

The Classic itself was alone with no cables or signs of extra peripherals. I asked a man sorting out more donated items whether or not he knew if whoever dropped the Classic off gave them any other things that may have gone with it, but he said that he didn't know.

I got home and powered it on, it works perfectly! The screen ratio seems a bit wonky to me, but that should be easy enough to fix after removing the monitor control cover plate- in the morning!

The only downside is that I don't have any keyboards/mice compatible with this machine. A bit upset about that, but at least I have a Classic on hand.

Thanks,
-Hunter

----------

9?

It should only be from 0-7, 8 positions. Hmmmm...

Yes, try 0-6. 7 should be for the Mac itself, IIRC.

smithrh

Only 8 total positions? I'll record a video or attach a picture of the dial that is on this drive. Just in case, I will try each position and see what happens!

Thanks,
-Hunter

 

[miniMOJOman]

since this is a non-apple drive, wouldn't it need to be initialized by the patched Apple HDSC setup to initialize the drive? I would boot the plus from a boot floppy and run the patched Apple HDSC setup to initialize the external HDD, then reinstall the operating system.

 

[MacTech68]

As odd as this may sound, I'd like to hear the drive itself by sticking a PLASTIC rod of some kind into the fan to stop it completely.

I'm not sure if I can hear a scraping sound coming from the drive when there appears to be read access or not.

It's quite possible that the system folder pointer is intact (this gives you the happy mac) but the drive is toast.

Mind you, now that an attempt to initialise it has been made, I wouldn't expect the system folder pointer to be there anymore. I still wonder about the original formatting program's reference to making a partition bootable or NON-bootable. This little drive is certainly intriguing.

 

[HunterCupp]

As odd as this may sound, I'd like to hear the drive itself by sticking a PLASTIC rod of some kind into the fan to stop it completely.

I'm not sure if I can hear a scraping sound coming from the drive when there appears to be read access or not.

It's quite possible that the system folder pointer is intact (this gives you the happy mac) but the drive is toast.

Mind you, now that an attempt to initialise it has been made, I wouldn't expect the system folder pointer to be there anymore. I still wonder about the original formatting program's reference to making a partition bootable or NON-bootable. This little drive is certainly intriguing.

MacTech68

I'll make an audio recording of the drive for you when I get the chance, tomorrow.

Something I did notice though is that now, after I attempted using the SCSI Terminator, the "scraping" sound is continuous instead of an 'off and on' thing. There are moments when it stops being continuous for the actual read/write process when it attempts to boot, however.

Thanks,
-Hunter

 

[HunterCupp]

Hello, all.

I've recorded the audio file of the drive spinning up -WITHOUT THE FAN- spinning at the same time, as requested by MacTech68.

I was for some reason unable to remove the fan filter, so had to open up the drive to get to the fan. Upon opening the case, I noticed that there was a stray 6 pin female connector that was coming from the little switch with numbers listed from 0-9 on the back. Not sure if this would be important or not.

Next to the stray connector were pins without a connector. These pins were coming from the drive itself, but had 8 pins, instead of 6. I couldn't find any other place that it would fit.

Thanks,
-Hunter

Apologies for the 'clicks' in the background from around 00:49-00:53
AUDIO FILE: https://www.dropbox.com/s/i9lyiutlqoborxu/No Fan.m4a?dl=0

 

[MacTech68]

Hello, all.

I've recorded the audio file of the drive spinning up -WITHOUT THE FAN- spinning at the same time, as requested by MacTech68.

Well, that sounds like a bad head to me. Can't be certain, but that does not sound good at all.

Also, regarding the SCSI ID plug, that drive is not the original. It's an 83MB drive. Whoever put it in the case couldn't be bothered working out how the encoder switch worked.

ftp://ftp.seagate.com/techsuppt/scsi/st1096n.txt

 

[keysersoze]

More info for that drive, and the jumper settings/IDs

http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/hard-drives-hdd/seagate/ST1096N-84MB-3-5-HH-SCSI1-SE.html#.VPCC0Y7fCaI


Seems that the SCSI ID isn't the issue though.

 

[dyt1983]

edit: To remove personally identifying information not relevant to the thread.

 

[MacTech68]

Sometimes it isn't about working out how the switch works, but how the connector is wired. Some drives had the ground side of the pins reversed in respect to the ID bits. If the ground row is the bottom pins, some were ID0 on the right, some were ID2 on the right. Plugging it in the right way would result in ID 0 setting being 0, ID 1 setting being 4, and so on. Plugging it in the wrong way would result in only ID 0 being 0 but anything else being 7. Also the key on the connector sometimes precluded plugging it in the correct orientation or even at all (if you look at the IDC and see the header's position right next to the SCSI connector, it's a tight fit).

Indeed, I agree. But I always made sure they were wired up correctly before returning them to customers when upgrading the drive, or replacing a faulty one.

 

[HunterCupp]

Well, that sounds like a bad head to me. Can't be certain, but that does not sound good at all.

MacTech68

Oh no!

Is this the end of the line for the Jasmine drive without ANOTHER replacement drive? Maybe there are a couple more tests to be done?

Also, regarding the SCSI ID plug, that drive is not the original. It's an 83MB drive. Whoever put it in the case couldn't be bothered working out how the encoder switch worked.

I guess that's the bright side to this whole thing- Assuming I fixed the drive, it would be an 83MB rather than the 20MB expected

Thanks,
-Hunter

 

[MacTech68]

Is this the end of the line for the Jasmine drive without ANOTHER replacement drive? Maybe there are a couple more tests to be done?

Sadly, I believe it is the end for that drive. Yes, there are tests that could be done, but you may need that MacClassic to perform them more easily. If it is a head crash (and according to the specs there are 7 of them), it's going to get progressively worse as the debris becomes a danger to other platters & heads.

What really gives me a strong indication that it's a head crash is that the drive spins up and then suddenly becomes very loud when the heads are swung out from the "landing zone".

I had a brief look on eBay, and original Miniscribe 20MB drives are pricey, but there are some relatively cheap 40MB Apple badged SCSI drives listed. Depends on what you want to spend (if anything at all).

 

[bunnspecial]

If you go with a newer and higher capacity drives, there are some relatively affordable options available.

I think I paid $25 or so for a Quantum 500mb drive a few months back.

Back last summer, I bought a big lot of IDE and SCSI drives on Ebay. There were 16 drives in all, including some largish IDE drives(a couple 160gb+) as well as 3 OEM Apple SCSI drives mounted on "sleds" for a drop-in fit in a 90s-era Mac. I think that I had a 500mb, 1gb, and 2gb. The whole bunch cost me about $50 with shipping.

There are also 68 pin and 80 pin drives, which tend to be newer, larger, quieter, and often less expensive. They are readily adaptable to a 50 pin bus.

 

[HunterCupp]

Sadly, I believe it is the end for that drive. Yes, there are tests that could be done, but you may need that MacClassic to perform them more easily. If it is a head crash (and according to the specs there are 7 of them), it's going to get progressively worse as the debris becomes a danger to other platters & heads.

What really gives me a strong indication that it's a head crash is that the drive spins up and then suddenly becomes very loud when the heads are swung out from the "landing zone".

I had a brief look on eBay, and original Miniscribe 20MB drives are pricey, but there are some relatively cheap 40MB Apple badged SCSI drives listed. Depends on what you want to spend (if anything at all).

MacTech68

As much as I'd like to manually fix and get in depth with the issue, I feel that the better decision would be to just purchase a new drive, like the ones that you mentioned.

That does not however mean that I don't want to eventually fix the drive. I just feel that I may wait a while to attempt it. Maybe it could be a side project for a rainy day, after I get the peripherals I need for my Classic.

What exactly would the process be, to repair the drive? From what you said, I'm assuming it's a quite difficult and delicate procedure?

Thanks,
-Hunter

----------

If you go with a newer and higher capacity drives, there are some relatively affordable options available.

I think I paid $25 or so for a Quantum 500mb drive a few months back.

Back last summer, I bought a big lot of IDE and SCSI drives on Ebay. There were 16 drives in all, including some largish IDE drives(a couple 160gb+) as well as 3 OEM Apple SCSI drives mounted on "sleds" for a drop-in fit in a 90s-era Mac. I think that I had a 500mb, 1gb, and 2gb. The whole bunch cost me about $50 with shipping.

There are also 68 pin and 80 pin drives, which tend to be newer, larger, quieter, and often less expensive. They are readily adaptable to a 50 pin bus.

bunnspecial

That's probably what I'll end up doing (replacing the drive entirely).

Could you link me to some of those 68/80 pin drives that you mentioned? Those interest me, as I didn't really want to spend too much on the replacement.

Also, is this the kind of adapter that would be used in my case, if I were to snag an 80mb drive? - http://www.amazon.com/SCA-80-PIN-SCSI-ADAPTER/dp/B0058V1UWS

Thanks,
-Hunter

 

[MacTech68]

MacTech68

As much as I'd like to manually fix and get in depth with the issue, I feel that the better decision would be to just purchase a new drive, like the ones that you mentioned.

That does not however mean that I don't want to eventually fix the drive. I just feel that I may wait a while to attempt it. Maybe it could be a side project for a rainy day, after I get the peripherals I need for my Classic.

What exactly would the process be, to repair the drive? From what you said, I'm assuming it's a quite difficult and delicate procedure?

If it is a head crash, you can pretty much kiss the drive goodbye - unless you want to keep it in case you get the same model drive with a bad logic board.

Fixing it would require replacement head(s) and platter(s) (most likely impossible to get), and specialized equipment for removing/swapping the heads and platters, equally impossible to acquire.

You might still get something for it on ebay as a crashed drive. I've seen a few 'non-working' early SCSI drives for sale. Somebody may be interested in it's scrap value for spare parts.