MacOS 10.13 EFI BootScreen APFS

[LK LAW]

Right now the reason why I can't used un-flashed GPUs is because I'm paranoid and use FileVault on my MacPro, so I kinda need the an EFI GPU. The difference between PCIe 1.1 and 2.0 in real world applications isn't large enough for me to care.

Anyways now my question is, with MacOS 10.13 apple will most likely introduce APFS, this will do away with filevault (really wonder how that upgrade is going to work tbh), so will we still have the EFI login window or will the OS boot with the recovery partition and then you get the login screen and thus hopefully not needing any EFI on your GPU?

Does anyone have an idea as to the most likely scenario?

 

[h9826790]

Who knows? It's just the APFS's limitation now, and quite possible that's why Apple didn't force us to use AFPS in Sierra. So, may be they will improve APFS (e.g. APFS+) to allow for FileVault in 10.13. Or still keep the HFS+ in 10.13, and only allow APFS for storage.

Anyway, I don't think Apple will force anyone to use a file system that can't use FileVault, can't use Time Machine, and can't use Fusion drive (especially considering how much Mac they sold with FD in the last few years). It will sure create lots of problem for most current Mac users. They know nothing about file systems, and they love the "simplicity" of Apple. If suddenly FileVault breaks, Time Machine stop working, Fusion drives die....that will be a disaster for Apple.

So, my guess would be Apple won't push APFS in 10.13 unless they remove all these limitations.

 

[JamesPDX]

APFS might just be Operation Backdoor. But it's okay because only the gubmint will have the keys. Which will be put on a flash drive and dropped in a parking lot somewhere.

I'd consider making multiple OS backups for when Apple decides to brick everything with a build-date prior to 2016. -Operation Backdoor Starfish Plunder.

Or we could just ask the NSA or the DIA. They might know.

 

[LK LAW]

APFS might just be Operation Backdoor. But it's okay because only the gubmint will have the keys. Which will be put on a flash drive and dropped in a parking lot somewhere.

I'd consider making multiple OS backups for when Apple decides to brick everything with a build-date prior to 2016. -Operation Backdoor Starfish Plunder.

Or we could just ask the NSA or the DIA. They might know.

Let's not turn this into a political discussion

 

[JamesPDX]

Let's not turn this into a political discussion

It's a marketing discussion.

 

[LK LAW]

It's a marketing discussion.

You may explain to me then how you would build a backdoor into a multi key encryltion environment.

 

[JamesPDX]

You may explain to me then how you would build a backdoor into a multi key encryltion environment.

I couldn't and I wouldn't. See Title VIII, Section 814 of the Patriot Act.

Any system can be broken with enough brute-force. But then neither could I hack an iPhone or write something remotely akin to StuxNet, but that is the tech-world in which we buy our tech and live with it. The other point being is that there may be another reason for the APFS that has less to do with better end-user utility and more to do with appeasing the flourishing surveillance states; all while providing the illusion of privacy under general-purpose computing. But we the public may never know.

Trust but verify. -Take good care of that Mac Pro. If APFS supports it and you want to try it after they work out the kinks, by all means, go for it. Just put it on a test drive, nothing critical until it proves its worth to you.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

Starting with Sierra the video card is initialised during boot up without the need for EFI ROM on the GPU. This development will be finally realised in 2018.

Macs now have the EFI screen on the motherboard ROM not one the GPU. This will be the case with the next Mac Pro. Basically the Mac is becoming more like a PC now.

 

[LK LAW]

Starting with Sierra the video card is initialised during boot up without the need for EFI ROM on the GPU. This development will be finally realised in 2018.

Macs now have the EFI screen on the motherboard ROM not one the GPU. This will be the case with the next Mac Pro. Basically the Mac is becoming more like a PC now.

Thanks for the info
I so hope the next MacPro will be worth it, otherwise I'll have to jump ship :'(

 

[netkas]

Starting with Sierra the video card is initialised during boot up without the need for EFI ROM on the GPU. This development will be finally realised in 2018.

Macs now have the EFI screen on the motherboard ROM not one the GPU. This will be the case with the next Mac Pro. Basically the Mac is becoming more like a PC now.

what a ********.
it hasn't started with sierra.

all integrated macs (mobile, minis,imacs, nmp) have had their video efi in main rom, even video bios (yes, old plain vbios) was in motherboard rom, because gpu had no own rom. it's so since long time.

it's same in many modern laptops.

it's ok when you have non-changeable videocard, like all modern macs. it's not ok when the videocard can be changed (like in cMP)

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

what a ********.
it hasn't started with sierra.

all integrated macs (mobile, minis,imacs, nmp) have had their video efi in main rom, even video bios (yes, old plain vbios) was in motherboard rom, because gpu had no own rom. it's so since long time.

it's same in many modern laptops.

it's ok when you have non-changeable videocard, like all modern macs. it's not ok when the videocard can be changed (like in cMP)

Ok ok we know that. But we're in the Mac Pro forum. It was with Sierra on the cMP we first noticed the screen could initialise and load like Windows on a PC. Hence my post is basic. I didn't want to waste time to write an essay with all the details because this is just a forum and not some place I use to exploit people with overpriced modified graphic cards. I have no need to waste time trying to look like the local don.

 

[Fl0r!an]

Ok ok we know that. But we're in the Mac Pro forum. It was with Sierra on the cMP we first noticed the screen could initialise and load like Windows on a PC.

The drivers are loading a little earlier now so we can see the end of the boot process, nothing else has changed. There's no EFI stuff involved, just the system drivers kicking in. You won't get the boot manager, FileVault or any other pre-OS EFI video like that.

 

[JamesPDX]

Starting with Sierra the video card is initialised during boot up without the need for EFI ROM on the GPU. This development will be finally realised in 2018.

Macs now have the EFI screen on the motherboard ROM not one the GPU. This will be the case with the next Mac Pro. Basically the Mac is becoming more like a PC now.

This is by far the most clear and concise explanation that I have found. A+

 

[jeanlain]

Except it's wrong. You need an EFI firmware to see anything on screen before the drivers load.

 

[JamesPDX]

Except it's wrong. You need an EFI firmware to see anything on screen before the drivers load.

Insert Peter Griffin sigh:

 

[jeanlain]

Ok, the EFI ROM need not be on the gfx card. But we have no idea what the next Mac Pro will be. We don't even know if it will take PCIe cards. But if it does, these cards will need an UEFI ROM to show a boot screen.
The EFI needs to know about the port layout of a card to show anything on screen. You can't have a generic EFI firmware on the motherboard that just works with any graphics card you put in a Mac or PC.
Consider also that the card ROM control many things beyond the boot screen, so it needs to be on the card itself anyway.
And this had nothing to do with Sierra. The 2006 Mac Pro had the Radeon X1900XT PC BIOS on the motherboard ROM (which was added by the Bootcamp-enabling firmware update). This allowed the card to boot Windows without it having a BIOS (it was perhaps the only pure-EFI Mac card).
[doublepost=1496096111][/doublepost]

Ok ok we know that. But we're in the Mac Pro forum. It was with Sierra on the cMP we first noticed the screen could initialise and load like Windows on a PC. Hence my post is basic. I didn't want to waste time to write an essay with all the details because this is just a forum and not some place I use to exploit people with overpriced modified graphic cards. I have no need to waste time trying to look like the local don.

You could just have admitted you were wrong without resorting to that.
You said that Sierra was the first OS X that could initialise a video card wihtout the need of the EFI ROM "on the GPU". For one, a BIOS cannot be on a GPU, it has to be on a separate chip. And if the GPU cannot be changed, the firmware may well be on the motherboard's ROM. That has nothing to do with Sierra, as Netkas said. Any non-tower Mac have had this for years (even the 2006 Mac Pro X1900XT has, as I said).
The tube Mac Pro video boards cannot be changed by the user, so their firmware can also safely be on the motherboard ROM (though I'm not sure if it's the case). It doesn't tell you anything about the 2018 Mac Pro, since its GPUs may well be upgradable.
Anyway, having a GPU firmware on the motherboard ROM chip doesn't make a Mac "more like a PC". PC video cards need to carry their UEFI/BIOS, just like Mac Edition cards.
[doublepost=1496096410][/doublepost]

The drivers are loading a little earlier now so we can see the end of the boot process, nothing else has changed. There's no EFI stuff involved, just the system drivers kicking in. You won't get the boot manager, FileVault or any other pre-OS EFI video like that.

I think this new behaviour where the video drivers start before the progress bar finishes was introduced together with the progress bar itself. It was new to Yosemite or El Cap, but not Sierra.

 

[Fl0r!an]

The tube Mac Pro video boards cannot be changed by the user, so their firmware can also safely be on the motherboard ROM (though I'm not sure if it's the case).

It is.
D500/D700 share one EFI binary, D300 has a separate one. Every 6,1 contains both in its firmware.

 

[netkas]

every 6,1 contains twice of what you said Flor!an.
one for master (with outputs),one for slave card.

 

[LK LAW]

So from the info I've been able to gather, FileVault in 10.13 (at least in multikey mode) works differently from 10.12.
The login window that you would have with >10.12 when you had FileVault doesn't need EFI anymore.
So that would mean we would only need EFI on our GPUs for the boot pickers and PCIe 2.0 (although thats not completely clear if that last restriction will remain with the eGPU thing), as for the boot picker you can always use rEFind.
All of this is assuming Apple won't bork this stuff in a future beta...

 

[grahamperrin]

Does the pre-boot login window still need EFI to show the login window?

Based on what I saw in relation to error -69853: yes.

Confirmed, from a current Recovery OS session, a dry run test of conversion from HFS to APFS:

> …
> Found APFS EFI driver /usr/standalone/i386/apfs.efi to install into the APFS Container
> …

 

[LK LAW]

I have to retract my PCIe 2.0 statement, still seems like that needs a physical/firmware mod.
Why does apple limit to be honest? Like they just let it run at full speed as eGPU, though to be fare PCIe 3.0 x4 = PCIe 1.1 x16...

 

[Squuiid]

So from the info I've been able to gather, FileVault in 10.13 (at least in multikey mode) works differently from 10.12.
The login window that you would have with >10.12 when you had FileVault doesn't need EFI anymore.

This is great news! I've not run FileVault since I upgraded my GTX 680 card to a 1070.

We will now be able to do almost everything a current Mac can do, including Night Shift, Continuity, enable/disable SIP, etc.
This was the last remaining feature that fully upgraded Mac Pros with unflashed cards lost out on. No longer it would seem!

 

[bsbeamer]

This is great news! I've not run FileVault since I upgraded my GTX 680 card to a 1070.

We will now be able to do almost everything a current Mac can do, including Night Shift, Continuity, enable/disable SIP, etc.
This was the last remaining feature that fully upgraded Mac Pros with unflashed cards lost out on. No longer it would seem!

Have you been able to run FileVault with your un-flashed GTX 1070? Considering an upgrade to a GTX 1080 from my GTX 680 and FileVault is/was one of my concerns if not flashing.

 

[h9826790]

Have you been able to run FileVault with your un-flashed GTX 1070? Considering an upgrade to a GTX 1080 from my GTX 680 and FileVault is/was one of my concerns if not flashing.

AFAIK, you need a Mac EFI GPU to run FileVault.

 

[bsbeamer]

AFAIK, you need a Mac EFI GPU to run FileVault.

if the previous links and reports are true, appears this might not be the case with 10.13 High Sierra. can anyone confirm?