MP 1,1-5,1 MacPro 2010 5,1 Design/Animation upgrade path.

[gugy]

Hi,
I am in the process of updating my MacPro 2010 5,1, 12 core 2.66 - High Sierra.
I have been researching here on MR and YT and I would like to get some feedback from you folks that seem to be way more knowledgeable than I.
Here is the gear I am considering at this moment.

• GPU - Pulse RX 580 8GB GDDR5
I know there are more powerful cards, but I am trying to avoid any hassles with power modifications.
This card also will allow moving into Mojave and possibly Catalina in a few months when bugs are worked out.

• RAM - upgrade to six-16gb sticks. My understanding of leaving two slots open is better for performance than fill up all RAM slots.

• CPU - upgrade to X5680. I heard it is the best bang for the buck in terms of performance.

• Storage - 4 blades Samsung 970 EVO nvme
2 blades (512gb) for RAID 0, 1 blade for scratch disk (512gb) and 1 blade (1tb) for System OS, Boot disk.

Sonnet SSD M.2 4x4 PCIe Card nvme.
I wonder if are there better values cards that can hold four blades and boot from it.

10GB HD WD Red/White for Time Machine backup.
____

I am a designer and animator. My two main software programs are Photoshop and After Effects.
Occasionally, I use Cinema 4D

I appreciate your comments about the above and if this makes sense for my workflow.
I would love the new MacPro, I wish I could afford it at this time, and another option is getting an iMac, but I am not in love with AIO systems.
All the best!

 

[bsbeamer]

See this thread:

PCIe SSDs - NVMe & AHCI

This is a general info thread for blade SSDs that can be used in the Mac Pro. This is a WikiPost so anyone with the proper credentials may edit it. NVMe SSDs can be used as a boot drive in the MP5,1 and MP6,1 with the latest firmware installed (beginning with version 140.0.0.0.0 for MP5,1 and...

forums.macrumors.com

Sounds like you're looking for the HighPoint 7101A.

 

[Soba]

Gugy,

Sounds like a pretty substantial upgrade and I think your system will fly. A few comments in line below.

• GPU - Pulse RX 580 8GB GDDR5
I know there are more powerful cards, but I am trying to avoid any hassles with power modifications.
This card also will allow moving into Mojave and possibly Catalina in a few months when bugs are worked out.

This is the card that I settled on after deciding to nix my nVidia GTX 1070, and for the same reasons—I did not want to modify the system or mess with external power. Mine is still on order, so as yet I have no feedback, but this card was recommended by several people on this forum; real-world testing has shown that Metal under Mojave with the RX 580 exceeds OpenGL performance of the GTX 1070 in High Sierra, even though static benchmarks show the 1070 should trounce the 580. Go figure.

In short, probably a good choice for you for now. Perhaps better options will emerge in the future and you can trade up at that time.

• RAM - upgrade to six-16gb sticks. My understanding of leaving two slots open is better for performance than fill up all RAM slots.

I have the same configuration. Yes, six sticks will give you optimum performance. However, if you find your workload would benefit from more RAM, then fill all 8 slots; the performance gain from using 6 slots versus 8 is negligible in many workloads. If you feel you need 128GB of RAM to keep your applications humming, then go for it.

Side note 1: It's possible to put in up to 160GB of RAM (5 sticks) and it will be recognized. (I'm not sure I recommend this.)

Side note 2: Windows 10 will work with 256GB of RAM in the Mac Pro, but macOS will not work at all.

See other threads on this board for background info on using 160GB or 256MB of RAM in your system, if you're interested. I believe there are some "gotchas."

• CPU - upgrade to X5680. I heard it is the best bang for the buck in terms of performance.

This is currently true, yes. I have a pair of X5690 CPUs, but these carry quite a premium over the X5680's (about $160 per pair versus about $100 USD, last I checked).

• Storage - 4 blades Samsung 970 EVO nvme
2 blades (512gb) for RAID 0, 1 blade for scratch disk (512gb) and 1 blade (1tb) for System OS, Boot disk.

Sonnet SSD M.2 4x4 PCIe Card nvme.
I wonder if are there better values cards that can hold four blades and boot from it.

I have several Samsung 970 Pro's on a Highpoint 7101A. As @bsbeamer mentions above, have a look at this card. It takes some extra steps to install and boot Windows 10 from this card if you wish to do that, so take note.

The 7101A is shown as not bootable in the documentation, but it is bootable in the Mac Pro.

Note that I replaced the fan on my 7101A, as the stock fan is a little noisy, and this wasn't a trivial task. You may not even notice the noise depending on your environment (it's not super loud).

10GB HD WD Red/White for Time Machine backup.

Wow, 10GB! I think I had a backup that size in 2001 when I backed up to a few DAT tapes.

You don't strictly need a Red drive for Time Machine, as Red drives are meant for multi-drive NAS use, but it should also work fine in a desktop. Buy whatever fits your budget.

Good luck!

 

[orph]

GPU - RX 580 is good value option
CPU -you may want to look at the X5677 4c/8t 4.46-3.73ghz cheaper and an extra few mhz, relay depends on what software you use.
it is a old CPU so have realistic expectations,
RAM- do you need that much? 16GBx6=96GB shore if it's cheep have fun

main software programs are Photoshop and After Effects.
Occasionally, I use Cinema 4D

photoshop will only use 2-4c in most tasks you want high mhz for speed

After Effects can be a pain, asume you are on CC

After Effects CC 2019 CPU Roundup: Intel vs AMD vs Mac

Choosing the right hardware for your new After Effects workstation can be overwhelming with hundreds or thousands of different hardware components to choose from. In this article, we are going to be benchmarking - using our newly released Puget Systems After Effects CC Benchmark - a wide range...

www.pugetsystems.com

from the chart we can see the 8c/16t 9900K wins so aout 6-8c with max MHZ is best, they killed multy core scaling a few years back

Cinema 4D IDK this may help ? https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/a...2018-Core-i7-9700K-i9-9900K-Performance-1251/

relay looks like single CPU 8c/12th high mhz is still the best for adobe

in AE gpu is still almost not used past a point https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/a...IA-GeForce-RTX-2080-2080-Ti-Performance-1237/
you relay just have to hit that min point of suport and it hits a brick wall after

have fun

 

[gugy]

Soba and Orph.
Thanks for the input.

All look good, I was just wondering if I could find a nvme pcie card a bit more reasonable in terms of price. $400 is pretty steep but I guess is what it takes to run 4 blades.

 

[orph]

they are not cheep, that simple.

for blades info

PCIe SSDs - NVMe & AHCI

This is a general info thread for blade SSDs that can be used in the Mac Pro. This is a WikiPost so anyone with the proper credentials may edit it. NVMe SSDs can be used as a boot drive in the MP5,1 and MP6,1 with the latest firmware installed (beginning with version 140.0.0.0.0 for MP5,1 and...

forums.macrumors.com

i dont have one but i think it's the plex chip on the PCI cards thats the main problem, they cost about $100 each.
the plex chip lets you put more than one nvme drive on the PCI card and run fast.

the CPU/RAM are dirt cheep now which realy helps even the GPU is fairly cheep.
as a plus if you ever want to use resolve or FCX for video work the RX 580 relay works fast, with resolve it compares to the GTX 1070 so amazing value for video.

at first i was thinking that it's a big investment but relay only the PCI/nvme setup will cost anything so i think you'll be fine & on your next computer you can just plug in the PCI/nvme combo keeping the main investment.

 

[bsbeamer]

You’re basically restricted to PCIe NVMe card with a switch. The “cheap” ones that can handle multiple NVMe blades with a motherboard side switch don’t work in MP5,1.

PCIe SATA SSDs are a cheaper option, as is SATA SSD in the SATA bays. Yes, not nearly as fast as NVMe but more than ample for many uses and can get larger capacities for much cheaper.

It’s also not the kind of thing you need to drop $1K+ in immediately. Cheaper but quality adapters for one NVMe blade are only around $50 with heatsink included.

 

[gugy]

You’re basically restricted to PCIe NVMe card with a switch. The “cheap” ones that can handle multiple NVMe blades with a motherboard side switch don’t work in MP5,1.

PCIe SATA SSDs are a cheaper option, as is SATA SSD in the SATA bays. Yes, not nearly as fast as NVMe but more than ample for many uses and can get larger capacities for much cheaper.

It’s also not the kind of thing you need to drop $1K+ in immediately. Cheaper but quality adapters for one NVMe blade are only around $50 with heatsink included.

I have an Apricorn PCIe card with two SATA SSD's in Raid 0. It's fast but the nvme speeds are on another level. That's why I am considering it. For Photoshop work lots of RAM and super fast drives are very helpful.

 

[orph]

IDK what level of work you do so im gessing, photoshop will relay not use 96GB of ram unless your doing relay masive projects.
PS has a ram monitor in app that i always use, always find it intresting to monitor all my app's

AE tho will use the ram, AE loves ram.
last time i used AE (back in CS6 days) AE was the only app that just ate all my ram, first time i had seen all 32GB just go that fast on a single app.

o one thing i will mention is a single 1TB NVME may be better than 500GB x2 in raid, the larger drives tend to be just faster than a single drive, maybe you dont get a 2x scaling but worth a look (and i dont like raid XP) and a spaire slot give's your room for a upgrade as needed.

worth doing a post in the NVME topic i posted and ask for advice, do make sure not get the cheep drives with low endurnce if your going to be hiting them hard.

get a USB3 PCI card tooo XD how did i forget to metnion that, one of the bigest upgrades i did.
when working with vide projects that are a few 100TB each USB3 just makes life better.

my adobe use end's with CS6 so idk how much things have relay changed to well since then with CC

tend to use pugetsystems for info

https://www.pugetsystems.com/all_articles.php?filter[]=After%20Effects

always find intresting topics for a problem like this

Adobe After Effects CC 2017 Disk Cache Performance Analysis

Having a fast disk cache plays a very important role in After Effects, allowing you to store frames you have already rendered for playback at a later time. In this article we will be looking at how different speeds of cache drives impact the performance of After Effects.

www.pugetsystems.com

 

[Supermacguy]

I just put a Pulse 580 in, I had tried some on ebay but they died, so after getting refund went with brand new on Amazon.

 

[gugy]

[automerge]1572379961[/automerge]

IDK what level of work you do so im gessing, photoshop will relay not use 96GB of ram unless your doing relay masive projects.
PS has a ram monitor in app that i always use, always find it intresting to monitor all my app's

AE tho will use the ram, AE loves ram.
last time i used AE (back in CS6 days) AE was the only app that just ate all my ram, first time i had seen all 32GB just go that fast on a single app.

o one thing i will mention is a single 1TB NVME may be better than 500GB x2 in raid, the larger drives tend to be just faster than a single drive, maybe you dont get a 2x scaling but worth a look (and i dont like raid XP) and a spaire slot give's your room for a upgrade as needed.

worth doing a post in the NVME topic i posted and ask for advice, do make sure not get the cheep drives with low endurnce if your going to be hiting them hard.

get a USB3 PCI card tooo XD how did i forget to metnion that, one of the bigest upgrades i did.
when working with vide projects that are a few 100TB each USB3 just makes life better.

my adobe use end's with CS6 so idk how much things have relay changed to well since then with CC

tend to use pugetsystems for info

https://www.pugetsystems.com/all_articles.php?filter[]=After%20Effects

always find intresting topics for a problem like this

Adobe After Effects CC 2017 Disk Cache Performance Analysis

Having a fast disk cache plays a very important role in After Effects, allowing you to store frames you have already rendered for playback at a later time. In this article we will be looking at how different speeds of cache drives impact the performance of After Effects.

www.pugetsystems.com

Thanks Orph,
Yes, some of my Photoshop files are huge. 1gb to 3gb. I work with both PS and AE CC open at the same time exchanging files. That's why RAM is important.
Yep, I forgot to mention the plan to get USB3 PCI.
I am curious about the nvme. I might start small and see how it works. Maybe just get couple drives and a simpler PCIe card.
At the end of the day, I don't want to invest too much money on the MP. After all, it's a 9-year-old machine. If I can juice a couple more years out of it. That will be great.

 

[bsbeamer]

Everyone's definition of "too much money" is a lot different, but would not recommend sinking thousands into this machine at this time. The processors are EOL'd by Intel so time is already ticking against them.

If you can pickup a Wolftech Pulsecard in your area, it's cheap and great. Basically identical to the PX1.

Suggest you get a 1TB NVMe blade and run tests with using system drive as your PS scratch before really determining that is a source of bottleneck. I often run my MP5,1 with NVMe as PS scratch. Really not the source of any slowdowns. Machine is max'd with dual X5690's and 128GB RAM. Same with MBP's using internal SSD as scratch.

 

[orph]

ah cool, lots of people say they work on 'big'files when there on 'tiny' files and dont know better
ask for advice in the NVME topic.

you have 4 PCI slots, usb-3 in a slow slot gpu in slot 1 so 2-3 are free so you have the option of maybe two cheep cards with two 1-2TB NVME drives
but if you want to get a good PCIE card for the nvme i think you need to use slot 1 or 2 for fuill speed (if you are hitting it super hard.

id ask for advice and be tempted to do 1-2TB drvie for scratch/media - 500GB-1TB drive for OS NVME setup
using two cheep NVME pcie cards.

im not up on the best pcie/nvme info,

 

[gugy]

ah cool, lots of people say they work on 'big'files when there on 'tiny' files and dont know better
ask for advice in the NVME topic.

you have 4 PCI slots, usb-3 in a slow slot gpu in slot 1 so 2-3 are free so you have the option of maybe two cheep cards with two 1-2TB NVME drives
but if you want to get a good PCIE card for the nvme i think you need to use slot 1 or 2 for fuill speed (if you are hitting it super hard.

id ask for advice and be tempted to do 1-2TB drvie for scratch/media - 500GB-1TB drive for OS NVME setup
using two cheep NVME pcie cards.

im not up on the best pcie/nvme info,

Yep, I have to get more info about nvme. It's a pretty good investment at $400 PCIe card (for 4 blades) and around $169 for a 1tb blade and half of that for 500gb blade.
Maybe it might make more budget sense to get 1tb blade for PS/AE files and 500gb blade for the scratch disk. I can keep my system files on a SATA SSD. I think this still gives me a very solid speed performance for Adobe CC.

 

[bsbeamer]

Yep, I have to get more info about nvme. It's a pretty good investment at $400 PCIe card (for 4 blades) and around $169 for a 1tb blade and half of that for 500gb blade.
Maybe it might make more budget sense to get 1tb blade for PS/AE files and 500gb blade for the scratch disk. I can keep my system files on a SATA SSD. I think this still gives me a very solid speed performance for Adobe CC.

System and applications should be on NVMe if you care about making the system "feel" faster overall.

AE rarely needs the fastest scratch/working drive available when you're doing effects work. All of that needs to be rendered in some fashion. Playing back those full resolution renders could be a much different story depending on codec choices.

 

[gugy]

System and applications should be on NVMe if you care about making the system "feel" faster overall.

AE rarely needs the fastest scratch/working drive available when you're doing effects work. All of that needs to be rendered in some fashion. Playing back those full resolution renders could be a much different story depending on codec choices.

I see, so I guess I can get two 1tb blades for system/PS-AE files and SATA SSD for scratch. That option saves quite a bit since I just need a 2 blade PCIe card. These are much cheaper.

 

[bsbeamer]

Again, I'd suggest you pick up one blade and run some tests to start. You might be surprised at the results.

Personally seems like you're overthinking this way too much. It's a 7-9+ year old machine with EOL'd processors. There is a limit on the performance benefit you can achieve. And at some point, the cost tradeoff just isn't worth it. Set yourself a budget and make the best of it.

Your bottleneck is the processors, SATA limits (to some extent), and the logic/motherboard. Highly unlikely you're hitting PCIe limits or actually being impacted by them. Highly unlikely you NEED more than 128GB RAM (the traditional 16GB/slot limit).

Adding a metal GPU and even a single NVMe blade will improve the system and make it "feel" more modern, for everything except actual boot and boot times. Boot times increase slightly with NVMe.

Adobe CC 2019 applications run amazingly fast on single SSD MacBook Pro's, MacMini's and even iMac's without using external media. Literally just using the internal single SSD with everything on it. Sounds insane to some people, but it's done way more than people would want to admit. Field producers and even news editors run this way often. Is it ideal for longform work or projects with multiple TB's of data involved? No, but that's why TB3 and/or RAID storage for those machines makes a huge difference.

 

[orph]

yep im with @bsbeamer CPU will be your main problem 90% of the time.

 

[gugy]

yep im with @bsbeamer CPU will be your main problem 90% of the time.

Yeah, I can see that. That's not much we can do on that end. My current CPU is 2.66, the max I can go is 3.49.
Either way, it would still be a solid machine for another couple of years. I am curious to see the nMP configuration prices but I am pretty sure to get a rock-solid machine for PS/AE/C4D will be on the $10k ballpark.

 

[bsbeamer]

Dual X5680 or x5690 are what most people max their MP5,1 at. It’s negligible speed difference at this point in time. Almost always can get the X5680 for much cheaper.

Even the entry level MP7,1 with enough RAM and an RX580 GPU should run circles around MP5,1 for CPU scores or benchmarks. You know the base prices for MP7,1 so make your assessment based on that and +15%, +20%, +25% tiers to start.

I’m on an MP5,1 with Adobe CC 2019 for at least something almost daily. Does it get the job done? Sure does. Just need to be realistic about it. Throwing 4K+ video at it really shows the CPU age.

This is a 2010/2012 machine and it’s almost 2020. Can only move to Catalina with workaround or hack. Security updates for Mojave for another 2-3 years max. Some are hoping to wait out that clock and get a deal on MP7,1 by then. That’s a call only you can make.

 

[MVMNT]

What plugins are you using with After Effects?

I'm using a 4,1>5,1 X5677 QC@3.46, 32GB, 680 GTX Mac Edition running High Sierra. and AE still flies for me.

AE can only use one core you know.

I'm using that setup to make enough money to then choose a more current and up to date upgrade path.

What's wrong with an AIO? You can augment TB3 with expandability, plus you get a lovely 5K monitor in that bundle.

 

[gugy]

What plugins are you using with After Effects?

I'm using a 4,1>5,1 X5677 QC@3.46, 32GB, 680 GTX Mac Edition running High Sierra. and AE still flies for me.

AE can only use one core you know.

I'm using that setup to make enough money to then choose a more current and up to date upgrade path.

What's wrong with an AIO? You can augment TB3 with expandability, plus you get a lovely 5K monitor in that bundle.

I use AE - Red Giant Trapcode and Magic Bullet, Element 3D and Boris.
The reason I not in love with AIO is the lack of upgradability and the fact when the computer gets old and slow, you still have a perfectly capable monitor that you need to get rid of due to the outdated internals.
I still have two 30" ACDs and they have been workhorses for more than 14 years.
The new iMacs are great and sure they are perfectly capable to run all the software I need, it's just the reasons above that make me pause. For sure I would consider it since the nMP are so expensive for my needs.

 

[thisisnotmyname]

I use AE - Red Giant Trapcode and Magic Bullet, Element 3D and Boris.
The reason I not in love with AIO is the lack of upgradability and the fact when the computer gets old and slow, you still have a perfectly capable monitor that you need to get rid of due to the outdated internals.
I still have two 30" ACDs and they have been workhorses for more than 14 years.
The new iMacs are great and sure they are perfectly capable to run all the software I need, it's just the reasons above that make me pause. For sure I would consider it since the nMP are so expensive for my needs.

Keep in mind "get rid of" doesn't mean it's going to the trash though. I give away all of my old hardware to relatives and friends. You could put it on eBay or craigslist and subsidize your next purchase. A higher end iMac or iMac Pro will still be very usable to many (most?) other people's workflows when it ceases to be up to the tasks you have with video editing and such. Given the mMP is priced out for you I'd definitely take another look at iMac or iMac Pro.

 

[gugy]

Keep in mind "get rid of" doesn't mean it's going to the trash though.

Sure, I can always sell and recoup some of the investment. It's the lack of expandability that's a drawback but again, you can always sell it if you need to.
I like the iMacs and the 2019 is a good bang for the buck.

 

[gugy]

Does anyone have experience with this nvme PCIe card?

IO Crest IO-PCE2824-TM2 (aka Syba SI-PEX40129)

I am looking for a two-blade that is a bit more affordable. I really do not want to pay $400 on a Highpoint/Sonnet 4 blade cards. Thanks!