MacPro - Stock Trading Computer?

[striatedglutes]

As a backup, though, and for a trader that is less active than I was at the time, it would probably work OK. Certainly if you are swing trading and placing limit orders/stops, etc, then you would probably be fine. I was scalping, so needed it to be more responsive.

At first, I will be trading off of 15/30/60m charts with TP/SL orders on every trade set from the get-go. I don't imagine I will ever scalp. I haven't decided on a broker yet, although it will most likely be Oanda to start with (java based running native on the mac for placing orders) with generic MetaTrader running in the VM for extra charting.

I wonder if you would have had the stuttering issues if you were using an SSD (my guess: yes)? And I'm assuming you haven't had the stuttering issues after switching to your dedicated PC?

 

[mw12a]

At first, I will be trading off of 15/30/60m charts with TP/SL orders on every trade set from the get-go. I don't imagine I will ever scalp. I haven't decided on a broker yet, although it will most likely be Oanda to start with (java based running native on the mac for placing orders) with generic MetaTrader running in the VM for extra charting.

I wonder if you would have had the stuttering issues if you were using an SSD (my guess: yes)? And I'm assuming you haven't had the stuttering issues after switching to your dedicated PC?

Oanda works fine natively on the Mac - I use their app on both Mac and PC, and have for years (they are one of the best BTW). It broke briefly in a Java update that Apple pushed a few months ago (prior to Snow Leopard), but works fine now with a fresh Snow Leopard install. I haven't run MetaTrader, but if you've already got a Mac, then just try it and see what happens. Forex markets have less of the activity spikes that you see in the Futures/Stock markets (no Time & Sales data either, which will reduce processing overhead), so you likely won't see the problems that I was.

As for the SSD, my issues weren't disk related. They were either CPU or VM network bandwidth issues. There is very little disk activity when running this stuff (hence my previous comment that the HD really doesn't matter so much). My trading PC is running off a single HD right now and it's not a bottleneck. When I was running on the Mac, I had a RAID 0 setup which was fairly fast, but again disk activity was minimal, so I don't think that was the issue - when it would hang there was no disk thrashing going on.

 

[striatedglutes]

If I go with a "1 computer option", I think I'll get an SSD anyway just for the general usage performance increase, not so much for "faster" trading.

I'd be interested in talking about trading with you though, mw12a. I can't PM/email you, so drop me a line if you'd be available/interested.

 

[rhinocom]

For mw12a and others...

...They key to my setup is that I use the trading PC only for trading. I don't even run a browser on it. No anti-virus, no email, no IM, no web browser. Just the programs I need to trade. That reduces the chances of another program competing for system resources, and also minimizes the risk of getting a virus. A lean and mean dedicated trading machine.

I use my Mac Pro for everything else, including market research, etc. Keep it all off your trading PC.

With this setup, my trading PC can easily handle busy market times - CPU rarely get's above 30%, and my memory usage is a constant 1GB. I run Tradestation, Ninjatrader, and sometimes Interactive Broker's TWS, along with two data feeds. Network bandwidth hits 1-2Mbps during market open and close, but usually only for a minute or so. More importantly, my PC remains responsive at all times.

So bottom line advice is this - get a quad core PC with 4GB memory and a dual-DVI video card (get a cheap one, you don't need much power, we're not playing video games). Put a clean install of Windows 7 on it, and only install the programs you need for trading. Get two of the biggest (resolution-wise, not size-wise) monitors you can afford. Screen real estate is everything.

Then get a third monitor and hook it up to one of your mac laptops (or get a mac mini), and use that for all of your non-trading stuff, including market research, excel spreadsheets, etc....

...Let me know if you need more specific recommendations.

mw12a and others, I totally get that it is a compromise to use a Mac in the business of trading to run some or part of your operation. I get that there are self-imposed limitations in terms of choice of applications to run by choosing to use a Mac. Let’s put it this way, there are very likely no/zero diehard Windows users out there who are looking to setup a trading operation who are saying to themselves that in order to do so, they need to leave Windows, learn the Mac OS and get a Mac! This isn’t happening. Some of us here, are probably former Windows users who are happy with the switch from Windows to Mac and are trying not to have to go “backward” to Windows if we can help it. That’s me. If I choose to use applications that are Mac based then there isn’t much of a compromise provided that I am happy with the applications. However, I haven’t made those decisions yet.

However, for the moment, let’s table the idea of running an entire trading and analytics operation on a “Mac-only” platform. Let’s explore the idea of a “hybrid” Windows and Mac setup such as what was mentioned above.

I suppose, one could run a trading operation on a lean, fast PC running Windows 7 64-bit with multiple monitors and 8GB of RAM (yes, I heard all of you! 8GB not 16GB…thanks! . On that system, you can run eSignal, TradeStation, MetaStock and other Windows only based programs. For me, it is feasible to have my MacBook Pro with 4GB of RAM running another external monitor and putting analytics on it. Research can be done on it, etc. On one of my MacBook Pros I have Vista running in a BootCamp partition. I could hook up another monitor (I hope Vista will allow that) and run either eSignal, MetaStock or Worden Bros. on it. On a MacPro I could run Snow Leopard and run IB or thinkorswim, basically the trading platform.

What I am gleaning about the best and most cost effective MacPro configuration is that it would have an i5 or i7 processor (I would go for the i7, you get 4 fast cores from the get-go), 8GB RAM, a moderate sized hard drive or solid state drive, possibly a RAID array with no striping. You would have as many video cards as you need monitors but they don’t have to be high end since we are not doing CAD, video, and gaming. We also want the fast incoming internet connection available. The monitors should have the best resolution, but not necessarily be the largest in terms of dimension. So far so good? Switching gears…

My question about having a hybrid setup is this: Do you every have to share data between the trading platform on the PC and perhaps Office applications running on the Mac? Since, your operation is split between two computers and you aren’t running email or a browser on the PC how are you moving or sharing data between the two? Is it ever necessary to do so?

I am interested in mw12a’s answer to that. I welcome everyone else’s answer to that, as well. But pending receipt of those, I would think that if you are getting a PC, then just have your whole operation on the PC. What advantage could there be to the hybrid system? On the other hand, if you wanted to be Mac OS-based then there would be the pull to have some Windows functionality, just because there are more programs for Windows than Mac in terms of trading, charting and analytics. That would have to be done, practically, speaking in a virtual machine with Fusion 3 or Parallels 5. How well it can be done, I don’t know. What I would do, if I was to go this route, is to make a BootCamp partition, install Windows 7 64-bit on it and then install Fusion or Parallels. That way, during market hours I can run my Windows applications in the virtual machine. If I am working after hours, I can use BootCamp to boot into Windows and run the same applications natively in Windows.

Alternatively, I could leave Windows off the MacPro and run all my Windows non-trade execution software on my MacBook Pro running Windows natively from its BootCamp partition plus/minus an external monitor.

I hope that wasn’t confusing. All comments and discussion appreciated.

 

[mw12a]

If I go with a "1 computer option", I think I'll get an SSD anyway just for the general usage performance increase, not so much for "faster" trading.

I put a SSD in my Mac Pro when I upgraded to Snow Leopard, and I love it (especially the boot time!). If you can afford it, go for it.

I'd be interested in talking about trading with you though, mw12a. I can't PM/email you, so drop me a line if you'd be available/interested.

Sorry, I fixed my profile so email should work now. Happy to answer any questions, although I'm no guru, so don't expect too much in the way of sage advice!

 

[striatedglutes]

For me, it is feasible to have my MacBook Pro with 4GB of RAM running another external monitor and putting analytics on it. Research can be done on it, etc. On one of my MacBook Pros I have Vista running in a BootCamp partition. I could hook up another monitor (I hope Vista will allow that) and run either eSignal, MetaStock or Worden Bros. on it. On a MacPro I could run Snow Leopard and run IB or thinkorswim, basically the trading platform.

I don't think you implied this, but just to be clear, you will have to do some fancy hardware configurations if you want to run two external monitors on a MacBook Pro. Pretty sure you only meant one external monitor on the MBP (which works natively just fine), but just double checking.

You would have as many video cards as you need monitors

Most basic video cards can support two monitors, so unless you want to get fancy, go by that.

My question about having a hybrid setup is this: Do you every have to share data between the trading platform on the PC and perhaps Office applications running on the Mac? Since, your operation is split between two computers and you aren’t running email or a browser on the PC how are you moving or sharing data between the two? Is it ever necessary to do so?

Personally I would either have a mapped local network drive shared on the PC itself, or I would use a service such as dropbox (www.getdropbox.com -- it's fabulous) to allow easy push sharing and access away from home.

If I am working after hours, I can use BootCamp to boot into Windows and run the same applications natively in Windows.

Hopefully it works so well that you don't even have to reboot! I can't really comment because I'm running 10.5.7 on a three and a half year old hackintosh

 

[mw12a]

mw12a and others, I totally get that it is a compromise to use a Mac in the business of trading to run some or part of your operation. I get that there are self-imposed limitations in terms of choice of applications to run by choosing to use a Mac.

My first computer was a Mac, and I've been running them for 20 years, so I'm as big a Mac zealot as you're likely to find. I started out trying to do it all on a Mac, but quickly realized I was making too many compromises and encountering too many glitches when trying to trade via a VM or using what was available on the Mac. At the end of the day, I realized that this was my livelihood - I was running a business here - which left no room for my personal preferences when it comes to OS choices. Get the best tool for the job and move on. There are so many other barriers to becoming a good trader that you shouldn't handicap yourself out of the gate.

That's why I use a Mac for everything but trading - I'm more productive with a Mac, but the PC runs all of the trading software I need without having to eliminate any options (important when you are starting out as you will want to try a number of different platforms to see what you like). As I said previously, there's also a lot to be said for separating your trading platform from 'everything else', so this setup feels like a natural split for me anyway. Really, even if you hate Windows with a passion, with my setup you are always within your trading software, and since I don't use the PC for anything else, I rarely interact with the OS anyway.

For me, it is feasible to have my MacBook Pro with 4GB of RAM running another external monitor and putting analytics on it. Research can be done on it, etc. On one of my MacBook Pros I have Vista running in a BootCamp partition. I could hook up another monitor (I hope Vista will allow that) and run either eSignal, MetaStock or Worden Bros. on it. On a MacPro I could run Snow Leopard and run IB or thinkorswim, basically the trading platform.

OK. I'd stop right there. If you have two MacBook Pro's, then I'd run OS X on one, Windows 7 on the other. Hook an external monitor up to each, get a full size keyboard and mouse for the one running OS X, and install Synergy on them both. This will allow you to share the keyboard/mouse across the two systems. It's what I use - I have two 1600x1200 monitors on the Mac, and two 1920x1200 monitors on the trading PC, and access them all using the Mac keyboard and mouse (an effective desktop of 7040x1200 pixels ) No need to buy a Mac Pro or dedicated trading PC just yet - two MacBook Pro's in that config will give you plenty of processing power to try out a few things before you take the plunge and spend any more $$.

My question about having a hybrid setup is this: Do you every have to share data between the trading platform on the PC and perhaps Office applications running on the Mac? Since, your operation is split between two computers and you aren’t running email or a browser on the PC how are you moving or sharing data between the two? Is it ever necessary to do so?

Synergy allows me to treat my four monitors/two computers as one giant desktop. It even allows you to cut and paste between systems, so I can bring up a list of today's trades on my trading PC and copy and paste it to a spreadsheet on the Mac. It's what really makes this whole setup seamless. Most of my statements are emailed to me daily anyway, so they turn up and are archived on my Mac. Anything beyond that, and I just mount a special folder on my Mac as a share on the PC and transfer documents that way, but I don't need to do that very often.

I would think that if you are getting a PC, then just have your whole operation on the PC. What advantage could there be to the hybrid system?

I prefer to use a Mac, so use it whenever I can. Also - and I keep repeating this, but it's important IMHO - your trading PC should only be used for trading. I don't even web browse on mine. I think it's important to keep it as clean as possible. If I was in a PC-only environment, I would still have two of them - one for trading, and one for everything else. I do run Windows in a VM on my Mac Pro, but not for trading.

 

[striatedglutes]

I started out trying to do it all on a Mac, but quickly realized I was making too many compromises and encountering too many glitches when trying to trade via a VM or using what was available on the Mac. At the end of the day, I realized that this was my livelihood - I was running a business here - which left no room for my personal preferences when it comes to OS choices. Get the best tool for the job and move on. There are so many other barriers to becoming a good trader that you shouldn't handicap yourself out of the gate.

QFT [if it does indeed apply to anyone as a mac-addicted trader]

 

[rhinocom]

Questions re: two MacBook Pro and Synergy Setup

mw12a and others,

The recommendation you made regarding Synergy is intriguing and puts a new twist on this situation. So let me tell you in detail the equipment that I have:

I have a newer model 15 inch unibody MacBook Pro. Here are its details:

Model Name: MacBook Pro
Model Identifier: MacBookPro5,1
Processor Name: Intel Core 2 Duo
Processor Speed: 2.66 GHz
Number Of Processors: 1
Total Number Of Cores: 2
L2 Cache: 6 MB
Memory: 4 GB
Bus Speed: 1.07 GHz
Boot ROM Version: MBP51.007E.B00
SMC Version (system): 1.41f2

NVIDIA GeForce 9400M:

Chipset Model: NVIDIA GeForce 9400M
Type: GPU
Bus: PCI
VRAM (Total): 256 MB
Vendor: NVIDIA (0x10de)
Device ID: 0x0863
Revision ID: 0x00b1
ROM Revision: 3385
gMux Version: 1.7.3
Displays:
Color LCD:
Resolution: 1440 x 900
Pixel Depth: 32-Bit Color (ARGB8888)
Main Display: Yes
Mirror: Off
Online: Yes
Built-In: Yes
Display Connector:
Status: No Display Connected

NVIDIA GeForce 9600M GT:

Chipset Model: NVIDIA GeForce 9600M GT
Type: GPU
Bus: PCIe
PCIe Lane Width: x16
VRAM (Total): 512 MB
Vendor: NVIDIA (0x10de)
Device ID: 0x0647
Revision ID: 0x00a1
ROM Revision: 3385
gMux Version: 1.7.3
Displays:
Display Connector:
Status: No Display Connected
Display Connector:
Status: No Display Connected

BANK 0/DIMM0:

Size: 2 GB
Type: DDR3
Speed: 1067 MHz
Status: OK
Manufacturer: 0x80CE

BANK 0/DIMM1:

Size: 2 GB
Type: DDR3
Speed: 1067 MHz
Status: OK
Manufacturer: 0x80CE

Hitachi HTS543232L9SA02:

Capacity: 320.07 GB (320,072,933,376 bytes)
Model: Hitachi HTS543232L9SA02
Revision: FB4AC52F
Native Command Queuing: Yes
Queue Depth: 32
Removable Media: No
Detachable Drive: No
BSD Name: disk0
Rotational Rate: 5400
Partition Map Type: GPT (GUID Partition Table)
S.M.A.R.T. status: Verified
Volumes:
Macintosh HD:
Capacity: 319.73 GB (319,728,959,488 bytes)
Available: 176.48 GB (176,483,102,720 bytes)
Writable: Yes
File System: Journaled HFS+
BSD Name: disk0s2
Mount Point: /

I also have the previous generation 17 inch (non-unibody) MacBook Pro. I can't copy and paste like I did above. So I am going to hand type the pertinent info. Here are the details:

MacBook Pro 3,1
Intel Core 2 Duo
2.4 GHz
1 processor with 2 cores
4MB of L2 cache
4GB memory
800MHz Bus speed

Graphics:

NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT
GPU
Bus: PCIe
PCIe Lane Width: x16
VRAM: 256MB
Display:
Color LCD
Resolution:1920 x 1200
Pixel Depth: 32 bit Color

Hard Drive:

I believe that the hard drive controller is:

Intel
Speed: 1.5 Gigabit
Hard Drive is a Fujitsu 250.06 GB with the following partitioning:

Mac HD: 206.02GB
Available: 95.08 GB
File System: Journaled HFS+

BootCamp: 43.69 GB
Available: 19.68 GB

The newer 15 inch MacBook Pro is running Snow Leopard exclusively.
The older 17 inch MacBook Pro is running Snow Leopard and Windows Vista Business in a BootCamp partition.

So would you recommend that I use the 15 inch with my OS X compatible software and use the 17 inch exclusively in Windows Vista? Should I upgrade it to Windows 7 64-bit? Any other version you recommend such as Windows 7 Pro or Ultimate? If so, why?

I don't do much real Mac OS X computing on that 17 inch MacBook these days. So I guess it would be ok to increase my BootCamp partition size to handle more Windows trading software. Would that be something you recommend?

I presume from your prior post that I could hook up one large external monitor to each MacBook Pro. that would give me essentially 4 monitors...2 external monitors and the built in notebook lid monitors in each notebook.

So Synergy is then downloaded to each MacBook Pro?
Is there any hardware or wired connection that you need to make between the two MacBook Pros in order for Synergy to work?

By the way, I do have a dual-channel Time Capsule connected to a cable modem. Would I make a wired connection from the Time Capsule to a MacBook Pro and use Airport to connect the other MacBook Pro or is there a way to have a wired connection for both notebooks?

I have a bluetooth Mighty Mouse. I would need an external keyboard with numeric keypad. Which MacBook Pro should that be plugged into? I presume it would be the one running OS X or would you recommend it be the one running Windows?

This isn't quite the computing setup I had imagined but it is interesting.
One thing about it though, is that I use the 15 inch newer MacBook for general purpose computing, web browsing, email and document creation. So it wouldn't be a dedicated trading machine. I can make the older 17 inch MacBook Pro more of a dedicated trading machine. It will be running Windows. I don't know if that makes a big difference.

Another idea, is that if it isn't good to use the general purpose 15 inch MacBook Pro for trading (and everything else) then should I get a MacPro running only OS X to run its compatible apps and use it with the older 17 inch MacBook Pro with an external monitor running the Windows apps? That gets my general purpose newer 15 inch MacBook Pro out of the trading system. Would that be a better scenario or no different?

Thanks.

 

[phpscott]

I have been trading via Oanda for four years and a Mac Pro is WAY overkill -- your Internet connection will make the biggest impact on performance. I would get a PC if the machine will be dedicated to trading. But if I got a mac to the job, I'd get a Mini, add more RAM and hook up a couple monitors unless the Mini cannot handle multiple monitors (I am unsure on this). By the way, I trade longer term off of daily and weekly charts.

Scott

 

[mw12a]

I have been trading via Oanda for four years and a Mac Pro is WAY overkill -- your Internet connection will make the biggest impact on performance. I would get a PC if the machine will be dedicated to trading. But if I got a mac to the job, I'd get a Mini, add more RAM and hook up a couple monitors unless the Mini cannot handle multiple monitors (I am unsure on this). By the way, I trade longer term off of daily and weekly charts.

Scott

Agreed. If all you are doing is trading forex with Oanda's software, then you don't need much. I've even run it on a netbook while on vacation and it worked fine. These have much less power than the average PowerBook. Can't run Tradestation on it though - need more grunt (and Windows).

 

[mw12a]

mw12a and others,

The recommendation you made regarding Synergy is intriguing and puts a new twist on this situation. So let me tell you in detail the equipment that I have:

I would set it up like this;

- Since the 17-inch has the larger screen, use it as your trading PC. Re-install a clean copy of Windows onto the BootCamp partition. I run Windows 7 Home Premium (64-bit) and like it. I have no experience with Vista - I went straight from XP to Win 7. My trading PC is only using 18GB of hard drive space for both OS and trading software, so you don't need a lot of space (your 43GB is plenty). 4GB of memory will be enough, but depending upon what you end up running, having only two CPU cores may or may not be a problem down the road. The best thing to do is try it and just see how it goes. I ran on a dual core PC for a long time, but found during market open and close that it would hang up for a bit (a few minutes), primarily because I was running 4 trading programs at the same time. That's why I went quad core. That may not be an issue for the software you end up running, which is why I suggest you try it with the hardware you have and therefore get a baseline for comparison.

- get an external monitor for the 17-inch - 1920x1200 is a good size. Maybe arrange your desk so that this is up behind the laptop screen so you can put your charts up on it, and have your execution software on the laptop screen itself? Experiment and see what works for you, but you want to be able to see your main charts at all times (ie, not burying them under other windows).

- use the 15-inch for everything else you do with Snow Leopard. Get another external monitor if you like, but since I wouldn't be trading on this laptop, it's only necessary if you want it for your other work.

I use the Mac as my Synergy server, and run the client on the trading PC, so the keyboard/mouse would be connected to the 15-inch Macbook Pro. My monitors are arranged next to each other on my desk, but that's because I'm using a Mac Pro and desktop PC (ie. no laptops). Since you want to utilize your laptop screens, you may need to experiment a little with placement of everything - it probably won't be as seamless as my setup since you will have different size monitors to deal with, but for a first run it will give you an idea of how it all works. You can always modify it later once you get a feel for it.

For Synergy to work properly (ie. fast), I would use wired rather than wireless connections. If your broadband router doesn't have a multi-port switch, then get a cheap one and plug both laptops into it. Plug your Time Capsule into this switch as well. If you don't know what I'm talking about here, let me know and I can show you some examples.

Now all of the suggestions I've made are based upon getting you to experiment first with the hardware you have, rather than blowing too much money on something that may not turn out to be appropriate. If you try this and decide, for example, that you want two big monitors for trading, then at least you know that based upon your own experiments, and not from trying to guess up front. Then you can go out and get a desktop with a dual-port graphics card and another monitor, etc, but I wouldn't do that until you try the setup above for a little while first and figure out what you need. Using the 17-inch for a while will tell you what your CPU/Memory requirements are going to be for the software you run, for example. My own setup has changed over time as I've fiddled with my workflow. Now I've got a system that works for me and the software I need to run, and I did it without spending too much on stuff that later turned out to be unnecessary (like really expensive CPUs and gobs of memory). I started out with a basic setup and built it up piece by piece until I had something that worked.

I think I covered everything - let me know if not.

 

[martrader]

Trading on the Mac with Trade-Ideas

I use Trade-Ideas for my trading and I have a mac. They also have an application to work with the I-phone. I use it everywhere I go. I can't complain with this company. I just came across them one day after talking to Scottrade and Etrade who both uses their platform within their software. They also work with TD Ameritrade. They have everything you need to configure strategies and set up alerts. There's even backtesting, or the OddsMaker, and the Robot which will automatically trade for you. I'd check it out if I were you. Here is there website: http://www.trade-ideas.com/
There's a video for using the I-phone too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oDpZDrV35s

 

[iDisk]

I am considering purchasing a multi-monitor robust stock trading computer system. The candidates are a MacPro with, at least, multiple video cards, quad core, two hard drives, at least 16GB or RAM, audio card for dedicated use in trading.
Another alternative would be to purchase a Falcon Windows-based trading system from tradingcomputers.com.

Does anyone here have any experience with using a MacPro as a stock trading computer? Please describe the pros and cons regarding the above alternatives and your thoughts.

Thank you!

16GB Ram??? Multiple Video Cards??? .... I think not ... It's just software that breaks down data.

Only individuals that require over 8GB ram are

• Video Pros (I fall under this category)
• Music Pros
• People who are rich and just like doing such
• Scientist implementing 3D visuals
• Developers who work intensively on GPU related task and with other IDE requirements depending on what their love language or languages are (I fall under this category)
  

It sounds like your going for the "LOOK" off those e-trade commercials. Theirs no data software that requires what you mentioned. That's like someone saying "Do I need 16GB Ram and Nvidia Quadro FX 4800 graphics card to do iMovie"

If your into "looking" cool then just go ahead with that configuration, but if your my broker I'd be my selling my stock in you fast

iDisk

 

[macabit]

Is Boot Camp Completely (100%, if not more) Native for Windows???

OK. I'd stop right there. If you have two MacBook Pro's, then I'd run OS X on one, Windows 7 on the other. Hook an external monitor up to each, get a full size keyboard and mouse for the one running OS X, and install Synergy on them both. This will allow you to share the keyboard/mouse across the two systems. It's what I use - I have two 1600x1200 monitors on the Mac, and two 1920x1200 monitors on the trading PC, and access them all using the Mac keyboard and mouse (an effective desktop of 7040x1200 pixels ) No need to buy a Mac Pro or dedicated trading PC just yet - two MacBook Pro's in that config will give you plenty of processing power to try out a few things before you take the plunge and spend any more $$.

I'm a bit late to this discussion, but;

Is Boot Camp Completely; 100%, if not more Native for Windows???

Any experience here...

 

[Corbet]

This thread is hilarious. You don't need 16GB (or 8) of RAM to do trading. You'd be just was successful using a MacBook (running Windows, of course) and a fast internet connection.

Take the $3000 you were gonna spend on a Mac Pro, get a $1000 Workstation Dell, and spend the extra $2000 investing.