MacRumors forum civility has gone downhill

[I7guy]

OP here. I’ll readily admit not reporting on any regular basis. It’s often just not worth the time and energy. Sometimes it’s clear the offender is an immature kid who doesn’t understand how to have civil discussion and differing points of view. As you mentioned, I will politely suggest they change their tone, but when that doesn’t work, I’ll simply put them on ignore. I don’t need that person in my life.

So no, I don’t have stats, but based rather on my sense and experience over the past year. Perhaps it’s just me spending more time here (working from home), or a large influx of new members due to COVID, or the world is just getting nastier, or a combination of all.

I recognize the challenge for mods to oversee a large and growing user base. Perhaps new members are subject to more scrutiny for their first 20 posts? I don’t know. I don’t have the answers. Kindness and politeness is in short supply in real life, let alone expecting to find it online. It may just be the way humans are wired when given anonymity.

The loss of civility, or in some cases lack of civility, is a sliding scale. It ranges from condescension, to nastiness, to borderline trolling to ad-homs. Many people know the dividing line between acceptable and unacceptable and push the boundary accordingly.

As Arn said above, there is not much that can be done on a site this size to force people to debate in a civil fashion. Personally I try to ignore the intonation (not always 100% successful however), except where a direct insult is thrown.

Maybe the recipient of the ad-hom doesn't care, but I feel it brings down the level of conversation to a children's level and I hit that report button.

edit: What I don’t understand is why people think it’s okay to insult other people. But that’s a topic for a different thread.

 

[ericgtr12]

The loss of civility, or in some cases lack of civility, is a sliding scale. It ranges from condescension, to nastiness, to borderline trolling to ad-homs. Many people know the dividing line between acceptable and unacceptable and push the boundary accordingly.

As Arn said above, there is not much that can be done on a site this size to force people to debate in a civil fashion. Personally I try to ignore the intonation (not always 100% successful however), except where a direct insult is thrown.

Maybe the recipient of the ad-hom doesn't care, but I feel it brings down the level of conversation to a children's level and I hit that report button.

edit: What I don’t understand is why people think it’s okay to insult other people. But that’s a topic for a different thread.

What we've seen over and over again is the attempt at forcing people into civility through excessive and often arbitrarily applied rules. Instead, what they should be focusing on is what's being said, not how it's being said.

In many ways this site is like Parler where hate speech is allowed just as long as you're polite about it. This is why PRSI has tanked, it's down to a core group of hard core people, closed off to new people and most of the quality posters have left on their own. It will be left to die on the vine as a result.

IMO this didn't have to happen but MR leadership has made a deliberate decision to allow such language that most social media sites have put a stop to.

 

[I7guy]

What we've seen over and over again is the attempt at forcing people into civility through excessive and often arbitrarily applied rules. Instead, what they should be focusing on is what's being said, not how it's being said.

In many ways this site is like Parler where hate speech is allowed just as long as you're polite about it. This is why PRSI has tanked, it's down to a core group of hard core people, closed off to new people and most of the quality posters have left on their own. It will be left to die on the vine as a result.

IMO this didn't have to happen but MR leadership has made a deliberate decision to allow such language that most social media sites have put a stop to.

You can't force people into civility with rules, we've seen that. Focusing on what is being said is a rabbit hole of interpretation much the same as you say, not how it's being said.

No matter what MacRumors has done or will do, some MacRumors members will be vocal about the choices made. I frankly am happy that MacRumors chooses not to limit conversations as has been suggested in the past.

As I don't frequent Parler I don't know the reference to polite hate speech. To me that is an oxymoron and either something falls under hate speech or it doesn't. And who determines what is hate speech per se and how subject to interpretation is it? I think part of the interpretation process is based on one's particular perception of the world at large.

The mods have so much admitted that significant resources go also go outside of PRSI, into the tech forums. Why PRSI "has tanked" and is now limited to grandfathering....the reason has not really been said by the staff, so unless I missed that post that explained the rational, they why of it is up for debate. And there may be a good reason, the "quality posters" have left, or maybe kicked out as well. Yes, it will die, but I probably will (God forbid) before PRSI does.

When you say most social media sites, you allude to those with virtually unlimited resources and can use machine learning and AI in the decision making process. Arn has so much as said, that is not MacRumors.

The above has nothing to do with civility. Lack of civility runs rampant in many other forums other than PRSI.

One think that makes me happy about MacRumors rules, is that talking about the post, rather than the poster is a much appreciated thing on this site.

 

[ouimetnick]

The loss of civility, or in some cases lack of civility, is a sliding scale. It ranges from condescension, to nastiness, to borderline trolling to ad-homs. Many people know the dividing line between acceptable and unacceptable and push the boundary accordingly.

As Arn said above, there is not much that can be done on a site this size to force people to debate in a civil fashion. Personally I try to ignore the intonation (not always 100% successful however), except where a direct insult is thrown.

Maybe the recipient of the ad-hom doesn't care, but I feel it brings down the level of conversation to a children's level and I hit that report button.

edit: What I don’t understand is why people think it’s okay to insult other people. But that’s a topic for a different thread.

If you want to see a more polite civil discussion, check out TalkedAbout.com. A member here started it and takes a different approach to moderation than the administration here.

It turns out that focusing on the kind discussion rather than how it’s being discussed yields a much different outcome, and I’d argue it works out better.

Not affiliated, I’ve just noticed a much different approach to discussion on other sites that seems to work better. (Not just the mentioned example)

 

[ericgtr12]

If you want to see a more polite civil discussion, check out TalkedAbout.com. A member here started it and takes a different approach to moderation than the administration here.

It turns out that focusing on the kind discussion rather than how it’s being discussed yields a much different outcome, and I’d argue it works out better.

Not affiliated, I’ve just noticed a much different approach to discussion on other sites that seems to work better. (Not just the mentioned example)

Yeah but I've heard the owner over there is trouble.

 

[AutomaticApple]

If you want to see a more polite civil discussion, check out TalkedAbout.com. A member here started it and takes a different approach to moderation than the administration here.

It turns out that focusing on the kind discussion rather than how it’s being discussed yields a much different outcome, and I’d argue it works out better.

Not affiliated, I’ve just noticed a much different approach to discussion on other sites that seems to work better. (Not just the mentioned example)

Change is good!

 

[TiggrToo]

Yeah but I've heard the owner over there is trouble.

I heard he was a stark raving looney…

🙃🤪😂

 

[I7guy]

If you want to see a more polite civil discussion, check out TalkedAbout.com. A member here started it and takes a different approach to moderation than the administration here.

It turns out that focusing on the kind discussion rather than how it’s being discussed yields a much different outcome, and I’d argue it works out better.

Not affiliated, I’ve just noticed a much different approach to discussion on other sites that seems to work better. (Not just the mentioned example)

I like it here, I've made MR my virtual home, so to speak. The wide variety of topics and the fairly consistent updates on Apple news and reviews by the editors, make for a website with different interesting topics at a fairly nice pace.

The community discussion forum, I find, is a very civil place. Taking PRSI out of the equation, the iphone forum, MR new feed, definitely the political forum seems to polarize posters to a great extent...for what reason I can't fathom. Some posters haven't learned manners I guess.

 

[ericgtr12]

I like it here, I've made MR my virtual home, so to speak. The wide variety of topics and the fairly consistent updates on Apple news and reviews by the editors, make for a website with different interesting topics at a fairly nice pace.

The community discussion forum, I find, is a very civil place. Taking PRSI out of the equation, the iphone forum, MR new feed, definitely the political forum seems to polarize posters to a great extent...for what reason I can't fathom. Some posters haven't learned manners I guess.

I'll agree here, there are a lot of other great areas on this site, the photography forum is by far my favorite.

 

[MacBH928]

Actually MacRumors is one of the most sane and friendly online communities out there. Have you seen Reddit? They refuse your post over stupid stuff like not including a link or including something in the title.

My problem is that every where online now there is an extreme red lines, you can't post your opinion unless it appeals to the popular opinion others wise you would be labeled as zionist/nazi/hater/bully/troll/extremist..etc and while thats ok if thats what they think of you, they actually ban you from speaking and suspend your account and attack you if they can like hack your account or something.

 

[AutomaticApple]

Actually MacRumors is one of the most sane and friendly online communities out there. Have you seen Reddit? They refuse your post over stupid stuff like not including a link or including something in the title.

My problem is that every where online now there is an extreme red lines, you can't post your opinion unless it appeals to the popular opinion others wise you would be labeled as zionist/nazi/hater/bully/troll/extremist..etc and while thats ok if thats what they think of you, they actually ban you from speaking and suspend your account and attack you if they can like hack your account or something.

Rules exist for a reason. They're meant to be followed.

 

[icanhazmac]

The community discussion forum, I find, is a very civil place. Taking PRSI out of the equation

Couldn't agree more! I took PRSI out of the equation a while back for the reason @MacBH928 brought up, if your responses aren't in line with a certain group you don't get conversation, you immediately get labeled a racist or nazi. Its a real shame because real nazis exist and throwing that word around at everyone who has a differing opinion is dangerous.

Actually MacRumors is one of the most sane and friendly online communities out there.

I have found this to be overwhelmingly true. Sure, you have th occasional troll or someone who is having a bad day but for the most part it's a light hearted community.

My problem is that every where online now there is an extreme red lines, you can't post your opinion unless it appeals to the popular opinion others wise you would be labeled as zionist/nazi/hater/bully/troll/extremist.

Unfortunately this happens quite a bit here. Post that you didn't appreciate the 2020 Holiday ad.... your a RACIST! No room for a conversation about how you personally don't appreciate the artist or genre of music, just post after post about "dogwhistles" and "old white guys". The commical thing about it is that no one here really knows the ethnicity of other members, many member names and avatars are neutral, so while you are perched high on your soap box labeling all the "old white guys" as racist because they didn't like an ad you could very well be mislabeling members that are female or non-white.

IMHO the members constantly throwing around false labels like racist and nazi are the ones that are dragging down the civility here more than common trolls.

 

[SuperMatt]

Couldn't agree more! I took PRSI out of the equation a while back for the reason @MacBH928 brought up, if your responses aren't in line with a certain group you don't get conversation, you immediately get labeled a racist or nazi. Its a real shame because real nazis exist and throwing that word around at everyone who has a differing opinion is dangerous.



I have found this to be overwhelmingly true. Sure, you have th occasional troll or someone who is having a bad day but for the most part it's a light hearted community.



Unfortunately this happens quite a bit here. Post that you didn't appreciate the 2020 Holiday ad.... your a RACIST! No room for a conversation about how you personally don't appreciate the artist or genre of music, just post after post about "dogwhistles" and "old white guys". The commical thing about it is that no one here really knows the ethnicity of other members, many member names and avatars are neutral, so while you are perched high on your soap box labeling all the "old white guys" as racist because they didn't like an ad you could very well be mislabeling members that are female or non-white.

IMHO the members constantly throwing around false labels like racist and nazi are the ones that are dragging down the civility here more than common trolls.

Most of those who complained about being labeled racists are still posting, while many of those who labeled them as such are banned.

So, who is really getting “cancelled” in the MR forums?

One can call all women from California “vacuous” but one cannot call that person a misogynist or one will get banned. One can say that black parents treat their kids like fashion accessories, but one cannot call that poster out for their racism without getting banned. Take a look at just about any thread in the Political News forum to see the result.

PRSI is actually more civil than Political News these days IMHO.

 

[icanhazmac]

Most of those who complained about being labeled racists are still posting, while many of those who labeled them as such are banned.

Maybe, just maybe, it isn't for any member to call any other member names or to label them. You cannot call another member a corporate shill or troll on these forums... what makes you think you can call someone a racist or nazi?!? Report the post you object with or challenge their ideas without resorting to name calling or labeling, that will do wonders for civility in these forums. If the mod team decides no action required then you were wrong, simple as that.

 

[OdT22]

I like it here, I've made MR my virtual home, so to speak. The wide variety of topics and the fairly consistent updates on Apple news and reviews by the editors, make for a website with different interesting topics at a fairly nice pace.

The community discussion forum, I find, is a very civil place. Taking PRSI out of the equation, the iphone forum, MR new feed, definitely the political forum seems to polarize posters to a great extent...for what reason I can't fathom. Some posters haven't learned manners I guess.

Hostility invited is hostility met.

I have moderated on several forums for many years and am something of a burnout at this point. One common denominator is that the rules are always arbitrary and always written directly about the growing pains of each forum in each case. Always too specific and always challenged.

I wrote the rules on one forum purposely vague but also purposely appealing to the good nature of people treating each other how they want to be treated themselves. It was just as effective and just as limited as any other forums rules. I don’t think there’s a perfect recipe. It’s the class of the clientele that matters most in any establishment.

The political Psri forum here is pretty ugly and uninviting. I’ve spent a little unwelcome time there recently and can’t say much good about it. I think it’s the worst liberal bullying I’ve seen anywhere yet, but I also understand that it’s a moderators nightmare and a popular hit driven success for the forum too.

I hope it gets worked out in any case. I’ve seen a few forum implosions that involved large membership bases leaving and creating competition, but this forum is ran extremely well compared to most. I think the membership here is in pretty good hands from my limited time spent here.

 

[AutomaticApple]

If the mod team decides no action required then you were wrong, simple as that.

Does that also mean you can't challenge the decision in SFF?

 

[SuperMatt]

Maybe, just maybe, it isn't for any member to call any other member names or to label them. You cannot call another member a corporate shill or troll on these forums... what makes you think you can call someone a racist or nazi?!? Report the post you object with or challenge their ideas without resorting to name calling or labeling, that will do wonders for civility in these forums. If the mod team decides no action required then you were wrong, simple as that.

I never mentioned myself. I was making an observation. I don’t find it very civil when one accuses me of calling others racists or Nazis.

Also, good to know that if I disagree with a moderator, then I am just plain wrong. I guess they are infallible.

Maybe instead of going after another poster personally, one could address the statements about the forum and express their opinions about it.

My point: racism and misogyny are not civil. Calling people racists and misogynists is also not civil. Currently, only one of those incivilities is regularly policed here.

 

[icanhazmac]

Does that also mean you can't challenge the decision in SFF?

No, you can't, discussing specific moderation is against the rules I believe there is a contact link for such things.

 

[AutomaticApple]

No, you can't, discussing specific moderation is against the rules I believe there is a contact link for such things.

What's the point of SFF then? Is it only for feedback that would please the staff?

 

[SuperMatt]

No, you can't, discussing specific moderation is against the rules I believe there is a contact link for such things.

if they are infallible, why waste time with the contact form?

 

[AutomaticApple]

No, you can't, discussing specific moderation is against the rules I believe there is a contact link for such things.

What if the contact link doesn't give you the answer you need? It isn't a perfect solution.

 

[icanhazmac]

I never mentioned myself. I was making an observation. I don’t find it very civil when one accuses me of calling others racists or Nazis.

I didn't mention you by name nor did I intend it that way. My "You cannot call another member" statement was general, not you personally.

Also, good to know that if I disagree with a moderator, then I am just plain wrong. I guess they are infallible.

I specifically said the mod team and by that I meant that if a specific moderation was challenged it is my understanding that the "mod team" reviews it and acts as it see appropriate, eliminating the fallible individual.

Maybe instead of going after another poster personally, one could make address the statements about the forum and express their opinions about it.

Never called you out personally, I simply replied to your post.

 

[icanhazmac]

What's the point of SFF then? Is it only for feedback that would please the staff?

I don't make the rules.

 

[AutomaticApple]

I don't make the rules.

Okay, what's your point then? 🤔

 

[icanhazmac]

What if the contact link doesn't give you the answer you need? It isn't a perfect solution.

It's not your site, if you don't get the answer you want after challenging a specific moderation I don't know how to help you but posting it here will probably get you a vacation.