Macs are SLOWER than PCs. Here’s why.

Discussion in 'MacBook Pro' started by maflynn, Apr 29, 2019.

  1. maflynn Moderator

    maflynn

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    #1
    I know I'll get a lot of push back on the video, after all I am posting this here at MacRumors - an apple fan site.

    I'm sure I'll see complaints of click bait, windows fanboyism, since Linus is entrenched in the windows world. Yet, This topic is more about the MBP and its cooling and performance then about windows machines hence the reason its in the MBP forum.

    With that said, I agree with a number of his points.

    Long term health of the components and logic board is questionable in my opinion. Yes the CPU is rated at 100c, but that doesn't mean it should consistently be near that temp.

    Many other companies have designed cooling solutions to accommodate the hotter running CPUs.

    the MBP quickly approaches 100c and where as many other windows machines run much cooler

    Apple's cooling profile is more designed to not have the fans running for as long as possible instead of improving performance.

    I know of at least one member here at MR, that has stuggled to find a MBP replacement in the windows world that mimicked Apple's fan profile. He hates fan noise and wants a PC that works like a mac. I'm not knocking him, but I think Apple is largely alone with the fan profile skewed towards quiet instead of cool and faster.

     
  2. Queen6 macrumors 604

    Queen6

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    #2
    It's a fact and how Apple design them. Like as not Apple's telemetry tells them that the vast majority don't push their MBP's or don't care enough about it. Apple likes to talk pro on it's site and present the image of the same with it's rather disingenuous marketing. Reality is the MBP is at least 30% slower if not more so as the cooling system is simply inadequate to deal with the CPU, let alone in tandem with the dGPU.

    Q-6
     
  3. cram501 macrumors regular

    cram501

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    #3
    Anybody that has owned a Macbook Pro in the last 5+ years (basing it on my experience with an early 2013 and beyond) shouldn't be surprised.

    My guess is that Apple assumes that most users doing their web surfing, skype/facetime, iTunes, etc... will infrequently run into and maintain high temperatures and throttling. They are probably correct.

    My early 2013 has always throttled when pushed. I did replace the TIM not long after buying it and it helped the idle temperature but it still gets hot and ultimately screams when the fans kick in. With that said, I've used it for 6+ years and don't max it out very often doing normal software development and running multiple virtual machines.
     
  4. throAU macrumors 603

    throAU

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    #4
    Same software? Sure.

    But macOS software is often faster in real terms due to better multi-threading, better UI, etc. And macOS hardware is the only legal way to run macOS software.

    But yes, the hardware is crippled.

    It's not just apple though. I've KILLED three surface pros attempting to run my workload on them.
     
  5. neteng101 macrumors 65816

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    #5
    Couple of factors, not just one...
    • Cooling profile tuned for silent running
    • Performance tuned for maximizing battery life
    • Design based on form over function (obsession with thinness)
    Intel's mobile powerhouses are absolute power hungry heat monsters, they can perform but are in sharp contrast to Apple's basic design objectives. So Apple takes these high-end parts cause that's portion fits into their top tier components only, but then they detune it so they can maintain other design goals.

    FWIW - I'm done with Apple laptops - partially because I want a laptop capable of gaming and Macs are a bad choice for that even with bootcamp. I miss my PC laptop not having the convenience of the close integration with the Apple ecosystem though - Messages and Facetime especially - but I know Apple will never build a laptop for what I want to do with it.

    Upgraded the M2 drive and RAM on my new PC laptop without much trouble too... again, that's something Apple doesn't want you doing. I'm way past my days of tinkering for the sake of it, but its always nice to have the option. If I really wanted to bother with my thermals, I'd repaste the heatsinks on the laptop too - chose the easy way out just running ThrottleStop undervolt to lower CPU temps instead.

    I still have my MBP - its sitting on my couch now. Late 2013 13" - stout performer for everyday basic activities, but I'm sure the day will come soon enough when Apple will stop supporting it.
     
  6. maflynn thread starter Moderator

    maflynn

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    #6
    No argument over the battery, I do give apple credit in terms of having such a long run time.
     
  7. cram501 macrumors regular

    cram501

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    #7
    I don't believe it is illegal although you could theoretically face civil charges. I don't think Apple has discouraged anyone from running MacOs on their own hardware. It can work pretty well although I always found it to be a PITA maintaining a working system.
     
  8. throAU macrumors 603

    throAU

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    #8
    Whether it is legality or PITA factor, running macOS on Apple hardware is more attractive than Windows on PC for many irrespective of performance.

    But yes, the recent hardware issues are pushing that.
     
  9. Queen6 macrumors 604

    Queen6

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    #9
    If for just basic use I'd opt for Linux as Apple can break the Hacintosh community in a heartbeat if they choose too, nor would I be surprised if Apple did so.

    Q-6
     
  10. throAU macrumors 603

    throAU

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    #10
    Thats pretty much why my next laptop will be from system76 unless apple fix their keyboards.
     
  11. Queen6 macrumors 604

    Queen6

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    #11
    Thinking the same System76 or Purism, however I like Pen & Touch and the flexibility the 12" W10 2in1 offers and primary 17" is on W10 for the foreseeable. Certainly not willing to be paying Apple over $4K for what it currently offers as a mobile solution.

    As time passes I'm less inclined to return to Apple and it's limitations/problems. For me W10 doesn't present any issue's and the hardware options are great, although in general I'd prefer Linux.

    Q-6
     
  12. pshufd macrumors 6502a

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    #12
    The 2008 MBPs were better because they were thicker. I have 2014 and 2015 and they are fine for what I do but I have my MBPs mounted on stands for better airflow and generally don't run a lot of taxing things outside of trading. I would like to build an external cooling solution. This is why I'm looking at Windows laptops despite the inferior ecosystem and consistency. And dealing with Windows Update.
     
  13. throAU macrumors 603

    throAU

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    #13
    Look into linux.

    It really has come a long way and if you don't need any macOS specific applications, and are mostly browser based then
    • performance is great
    • the OS is free
    • no Windows update running when IT feels like it and not when you want to schedule it
    I've eliminated Windows entirely from my household now and other than all of the iOS/WatchOS, etc. i have only 1 working mac.
     
  14. uecker87 macrumors regular

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    #14
    This is an excellent post. I agree with pretty much everything. I tried to like the 2018 15" MBP - twice. But ended up returning it both times. It runs way too hot and doesn't allow me the flexibility to try to change that if I want. They sacrificed way too much for the sake of thinness. I finally bought a XPS 9570 - repasted it and also use Throttlestop. Now that thing runs very cool, has terrific battery life (I went with the 1080p model - and I am talking about 12-14+ hours of normal day to day usage), and can handle everything I throw at it.

    I am still disappointed though. Like you, I also miss the integration between a couple core Apple services (mainly Messages for me though - I won't allow myself to get completely sucked into the entire Apple ecosystem).

    I also have a late 2013 13" MBP that still gets some usage. Runs fine. My only issue with it is occasionally the trackpad gets a little sticky, but oh well. I just use tap to click when that happens. I have actually turned it more-or-less into my Plex server with movies and TV shows on it that I can stream to my Nvidia Shield TV.

    I also ended up installing MacOS on my desktop for a dual boot machine with Windows and MacOS... All would be good in that world if I wasn't forced to use the iGPU in Mojave because Apple and Nvidia can't get along - oh well. Getting off topic now. ;)
     
  15. pshufd macrumors 6502a

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    #15
    We use Linux at work and we have staff to keep our systems maintained. The staff to maintain Windows and macOS systems are tiny by comparison. I like iTunes and iCloud and will keep at least one Mac for these. My trading applications run best on Windows. One of them runs on Wine on Mac and it has problems from time to time - often around macOS udpates.
     
  16. redheeler macrumors 604

    redheeler

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    #16
    The impression I got from this video is that Intel is more to blame for the throttling than Apple is. Linus himself admitted that Windows laptops with the same CPUs also throttle.

    That being said, Apple should include a way to switch to a more aggressive fan curve, rather than forcing the user to download a third-party fan control app. Their tendency to prioritize silent operation over adequate cooling has caused problems in the past.
     
  17. maflynn thread starter Moderator

    maflynn

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    #17
    Intel is to blame for providing chipsets that are running a lot hotter then previously. They're cramming more cores, because of the lack of 10nm chipsets and that's the only way to increase performance. Ultimately its apple's fault simply because they knew about the issue and chose not to do anything about it.
     
  18. SoyCapitanSoyCapitan

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    #18
    Thermal issues aside, we know how much time we save using macOS. Features like Finder Labels, Tags, Quick Look, super easy color profile management, and so on don’t exist on Windows.

    You plug a monitor into Windows and it isn’t recognized most of the time. In Device Manager it will be listed as a “Generic Plug and Play Monitor” and no color profile will be applied to it. These have to be manually configured. On macOS the monitor is recognized and correct profiles available.

    Try managing HDR content on Windows. You have to enable HDR to see HDR content. But if you do that the rest of the OS and apps appear messed up. On macOS you don’t need to manually enable HDR. Content will appear correctly without messing up your desktop or interface appearance.

    Same thing with eGPU. You have to jump through a couple of hoops on Windows. On macOS it really is plug and play and so easy.

    Apple can fix thermal issues easily with changes to hardware design. But Microsoft would take a lot longer to match the ease of use macOS gives users. They have had the last 20 years to catch up, but Windows File Explorer is still quite ancient. It won’t even show thumbnails for some common file formats such as .PSD files that have been used for 25+ years.

    Another example. Windows 10 copies Exposé very nicely. They did a job there and also made the Taskbar more like the Dock. Now they have added the “Timeline” feature and have screwed up the appearance of their Exposé. Microsoft has this ability to take something elegant and simple and then make it complicated and messy.
     
  19. pshufd macrumors 6502a

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    #19
    I think that macOS is a more efficient OS. I was using my 2008 MBP up until about two years ago for some things so CPU/disk performance wasn't a limiting factor. I was also using a 2014 MBP for work so raw performance wasn't the main criteria. But there are applications that run better on Windows or only run on Windows (outside of Wine or a VM) and part of my world involves those. They are running okay on my 2014 MBP but it would be nice to get a performance boost and a 17.3 inch display.

    There are a number of high-end Windows systems with big displays in the 10-12 pound range and maybe I should write an article enumerating these options as the number of these systems surprised me. I would really love for Apple to get into this market as there's clear demand for systems like these - whether for gaming, some kind of pro use or trading.
     
  20. cram501 macrumors regular

    cram501

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    #20
    I'm not trying defend Intel with their lack of execution with regards to CPU evolution over the last decade. I think everyone can agree that it has been inadequate to the point that Apple is apparently looking to design their own chips. We'll see if that ever creates anything exciting.

    With that said, Apple has had these chips during the creation of their laptops and still continued to develop a design that was thinner with inadequate cooling capacity. They've been doing that for years. I can't see how that is Intels fault.
     
  21. LogicalApex macrumors 6502

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    #21
    I'll watch the video once I'm done work...

    But, this made me curious why not? Intel CPUs are designed to run indefinitely as long as they are cooled within their TDP and don't exceed tJunction. I don't buy the argument that the chips can't handle running at their designed temperature maximums and sustained for long periods.

    There is debate on here about the keyboard suffering damage on the newer MBPs if they warp from heat. I haven't yet had that occur so I can't speak to it, but the logic board and CPU should have no trouble sustaining...

    Silicone quality has improved dramatically and this isn't the 1990s anymore where overclocking "reduces lifespan" due to the excessive heat generated. I'll say this is accurate as Intel has no problem selling unlocked CPUs for overclocking and I have overclocked my Intel desktop CPUs to run at 1Ghz more than specced and the chips have been in use for 5+ years...

    Just like with Nvidia GPUs better cooling may open you up to better overclocking room (and they do automatic overclocking similar to Intel Nvidia calls it GPU Boost and Intel calls it Turbo). Different cooling solutions may deliver different performance numbers as a result, but that doesn't mean the one at higher temperature isn't going to last.
     
  22. leman macrumors G3

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    #22
    Exactly, Apple is more confident in using the upper temperature operating range of the CPUs. If one looks at temperature/power relationship, it's evident, that the MBP has been very carefully engineered to hit the max safe operating temp at the max rated power output. It's one of the most efficient laptops on the market in this regard — it provides minimal necessary cooling necessary to run the hardware within its operating range. The upside is more compact and lightweight construction, cooler enclosure temperatures, less annoying fan curves, lower average energy consumption for the cooling system. The downside is that you don't really have much headroom in the upper range, which becomes an issue with CPUs like Coffee Lake that have very aggressive clocks which put them well above the official spec.

    Because in the PC world, they just give users like that anaemic hardware. That is one of the reasons I don't see any alternative for the 15" MBP for me — I want a lightweight, compact laptop that can be realistically used on the go, but also pack a punch if I need it to. Frankly, that has been MBP's niche since it was first released and the basis of its success, and the "I can get a better PC for 1/3 the price" (no you can't) crew doesn't seem to understand it. The only other laptop that comes close to it is the current XPS, but it has its own drawbacks that limit its usability (e.g. bottom air intake vents).
     
  23. pshufd macrumors 6502a

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    #23
    I don't think that you can get a better PC for 1/3d - and the PCs that I'm looking at cost as much as Apple's. But I can get a PC that's better at cooling (because of better cooling solutions due to a bigger PC) and weight isn't a factor for me.
     
  24. leman macrumors G3

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    #24
    Bah, just people who don't want to analyse the situation completely (talking about Linus and co). Can't really blame them, one cares about the result, not about how things actually work.

    To get the facts straight however: somehow the MBP was not slower than the competitors using the same CPUs Skylake times (using the same chassis as now). Yes, the MBP — using the same chassis — often performs slower than many other (larger, more aggressively cooled) laptops with the same Coffee Lake CPUs. And as to "2.2.Ghz is faster than 2.6Ghz" story, if one looks around, one sees that the same is also happening outside of Apple's world. It's the CPUs that are messed up. Their specs are misleading. Their max multi-core turbo should has been lower — but then Intel wouldn't get any sales since it would become painfully clear that its the same CPU as what they had two years before, just with twice as many cores crammed in the same package.
     
  25. redheeler macrumors 604

    redheeler

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    #25
    Unless you're ok with lugging around an inch-thick gaming laptop (and a lot of people aren't in 2019, myself included), you're going to be looking at the same cooling and throttling issues with the same specs on the Windows side.
     

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181 April 29, 2019