Major flaw with Spaces (and how well it is done in linux)

[QuarterSwede]

Spaces isn't a virtual desktop. It's actually a window management system. Killmoms was the first to point out the difference here.

That exactly why Spaces works for me while other virtual desktops don't (I hate them). To me it's more logical to think of it as one big desktop split into 4 smaller ones. If you have a small screen (12" here) it makes sense fast. Spaces alone breathed new life into this aging PowerBook.

 

[kuwisdelu]

That exactly why Spaces works for me while other virtual desktops don't (I hate them). To me it's more logical to think of it as one big desktop split into 4 smaller ones. If you have a small screen (12" here) it makes sense fast. Spaces alone breathed new life into this aging PowerBook.

Same here, actually. I love the feature that it switches to the correct Space when I command-tab between applications. Back when I used 3rd party virtual desktop in Tiger, it annoyed me to hell that I would command-tab to an application and I would still be in the wrong desktop. Spaces works quite well for me. Personally, my only complaint is that I can't send a window to another space without using the mouse. That really needs a keyboard shortcut.

I don't see why people don't think it's possible to have multiple windows of the same application in different Spaces. I can easily have different Safari or Pages windows in several different Spaces, and I do that a lot, too. I don't understand this confusion.

However, for the people who need their most task-centric, I hope they get their functionality of assigning Spaces to individual documents. For me that would be too much micro-management. I just switch to whatever free Space I have and open my document there. I don't have a particular Space for a particular task. I just use Space 1 for most day-to-day stuff. If I start doing something else, I put it in Space 2. If I start doing yet another task, I just switch to Space 3 and put it there, and so on.

 

[mckyvlle]

Here's a way to make Spaces task-based, rather than app-based:

http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=2008021122525348

Ooh! That's sweet!

I didn't really like the way Spaces would switch between spaces every time an app calls for attention. This solves it nicely. Pity there are minor problems as noted in the macosxhints article about not switching to the app's space when it is clicked on the Dock.

 

[Neutral Gamer]

It's "back breaking" time ...

Here's a way to make Spaces task-based, rather than app-based: http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=2008021122525348

Hold on a sec, weizilla posted this exact same link 23 days ago in the same thread:

More info and source here: http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=2008021122525348

Tut, tut! Not like you heatmiser to make such a mistake ...

Anyhow, it is still a great tip and something I was longing for when I used to use Leopard, such a pity that Apple didn't make it a public preference. You kinda wonder sometimes why Apple put so many "hidden" features into their OS and then never reveal them. It's always a smart kid who reveals it for us.

I also agree with everyone else that a proper keyboard shortcut for moving a window to a space is a must and soon as Apple implement it I'll be straight back onto the Leopard bandwagon. Now let's see if the feedback straw I'm gonna submit to Apple on this issue will be the one to break their backs ...

 

[mason.kramer]

That exactly why Spaces works for me while other virtual desktops don't (I hate them). To me it's more logical to think of it as one big desktop split into 4 smaller ones. If you have a small screen (12" here) it makes sense fast. Spaces alone breathed new life into this aging PowerBook.

Yea. That's why I don't say Spaces is 'flawed'. It actually is very useful as a window management system. In fact, it's the best window management system I've ever used. Before Spaces, and in Windows and Gnome desktop environments, the window management system consists in some hodgepodge of: minimizing, changing the z-index of your windows by tabbing through them or clicking on them, using the "hide" menu command, and manually positioning them side by side. Spaces is more automatic and has the great F8 view, and is very intuitive because it plays to the human being's strong ability to do spatial reasoning.

Now, I propose a new feature in 10.6: "Facets", which should really be a virtual desktop environment. Each facet would be a virtual desktop, replete with its own Spaces and Dock, so that we could organize by task. Applications could appear on one space per facet. That way we would keep the great window managment of Spaces and add the task-oriented divisions that are the point of a viritual desktop. And of course, we'd get to our facets with the good-looking cube rotation that Beryl pioneered and Apple used for Fast User Switching.

 

[mason.kramer]

I also agree with everyone else that a proper keyboard shortcut for moving a window to a space is a must and soon as Apple implement it I'll be straight back onto the Leopard bandwagon. Now let's see if the feedback straw I'm gonna submit to Apple on this issue will be the one to break their backs ...

You know I am a huge fan of keyboard navigation shortcuts. If you don't believe that you should check the wiki. When I first started using Spaces, I thought this would be a necessity. But now that I've set the default location for my most common apps, I never change anything. Whenever i want to open a less common helper app, I'm usually in the space that I want to open it in, so there's no need to move it. I can't think of reason I'd need to move one of my apps that has a default space, but if it ever comes up, it will be so infrequently that a keyboard shortcut isn't crucial. The idea is to actually have a discipline with keeping your windows apart to reduce clutter; moving windows together should be the exception, not the rule, thus no shortcut is necessary.

Also, quick tip, if you ever do need your windows together (I can't think of why, unless you have a lot of things to drag and drop, in which case, you're using the mouse anyway so no need for a keyboard shortcut, but I'm sure there are reasons), try F8, c. It collects them all into the active space. C again will undo the action, but if you leave the spaces screen, you can't send them all back to their original homes.

 

[Neutral Gamer]

Not Applications but Windows, Windows, Windows!

The idea is to actually have a discipline with keeping your windows apart to reduce clutter; moving windows together should be the exception, not the rule, thus no shortcut is necessary.

My friend, that's EXACTLY what we want to do and what we're complaing about! We want to keep our windows apart and on separate spaces rather than having every single window of a specific application consigned to one space. Obviously everyone uses their operating system differently and it appears, from how you've described it, that your usage characteristics are antipodal to ours.

It only takes one application, Safari, to show you why the "one application per space" system is less than optimal. I used to have Xcode on one space along with a Safari window showing programming documentation. On another I had a Safari window showing the various websites (in tabs) I check daily such as Engadget, BBC News etc. and alongside it a Safari window for the Forum Spy. Also in one of my spaces for trading I had a couple of Safari windows showing financial news. Then on another space I had various Safari windows dedicated to the maintenance, visitor statistics and database management of a couple of my websites.

I could go on with my other spaces, but surely you get the idea I'm trying to express here? When I used to open up a new window in Safari the first thing I had to do was drag it to the appropriate space and if I didn't have a Safari window in my current space it would automatically shift the space to one that did have it in. (Thankfully the posts above show a solution to this problem at least.)

Believe me, dragging around windows or holding a window title bar and pressing shortcuts while using a laptop trackpad is just not fun at all and no way as fast as I'd like it. Of course I'm an extreme multitasker and I fully accept that not everyone uses Spaces in the way I would but those in the same boat as me are currently frustated by the current implementation.

 

[mason.kramer]

I used to have Xcode on one space along with a Safari window showing programming documentation. On another I had a Safari window showing the various websites (in tabs) I check daily such as Engadget, BBC News etc. and alongside it a Safari window for the Forum Spy. Also in one of my spaces for trading I had a couple of Safari windows showing financial news. Then on another space I had various Safari windows dedicated to the maintenance, visitor statistics and database management of a couple of my websites.

Well, actually, my post is speaking directly to users who have your usage habit. What you are describing is an attempt to set up a task-oriented work environment using Spaces. You want each space to correspond to a , ask. But as has been pointed out by me and others, Spaces isn't actually designed to separate out tasks. In short: you say, "Spaces isn't task oriented!", I say, "Yes! It's a pity. But here is what Spaces can actually do for you." I think many people, including myself, were hoping that Spaces would be a task-oriented "virtual desktop", and I, too, was disappointed that it isn't. But c'mon, what do you think of my Facets ideas?

Edit: I thought of another way to make Spaces more task oriented. If users could specify multiple default spaces for their applications, that would allow Spaces to become task-oriented but still retain some of the window management. The best solution is still Facets, because then Spaces gets to be a very good window management system.

Suppose you could specify that Firefox defaults to your Xcode space, your Numbers space, your Mail space, etc. When you cmd-tab into Firefox or open it from a space has Firefox specified, your space doesn't switch, but the menu switches to that app, and windows you create using that app appear in the current space. This would be better than the hack from macoshints. (defaults write com.apple.Dock workspaces-auto-swoosh -bool NO), because that hack ruins the usefulness of specifying default spaces. In other words, every time you log in, you have to implicitly set up your work station all over again as you open each application. (Don't forget to change spaces before opening Xcode! What a hassle. Obviously in this usage pattern, a keyboard short to move windows is necessary. But the I think the action that you want to manually perform with a keyboard shortcut is a prime candidate for automation).

 

[Neutral Gamer]

I think many people, including myself, were hoping that Spaces would be a task-oriented "virtual desktop", and I, too, was disappointed that it isn't. But c'mon, what do you think of my Facets ideas?

Facets is a great idea but you just know Apple would never implement it as to them it would probably be like having a virtual desktop inside of a virtual desktop and that would just confuse most consumers. Hardcore users like oursevles though would be over the moon!

Let's just hope that 10.5.3 / 10.6 brings some kind of enhancements to Spaces that brings it more in line with a task orientated system or at least offer an option to do so. I know a lot of people would like different desktop wallpaers for each space and I'd love to have a big number or something on the desktop so I know which space I'm currently in. The Spaces menu bar option is just too small. It'd be great if we could actually name separate spaces as well and their names would come up when in the birds eye view.

Or even better how about having a miniaturised or resizable birds eye view on the desktop so you can keep an eye on ALL your spaces at once in real time - how cool would that be!

 

[chagla]

hei i thought space was an revolutionary innovation on Leopard. who are you talking about this thing called linux's multiple desktop?
i bet linux has nothing better to do than copying Apple.

 

[mckyvlle]

Now, I propose a new feature in 10.6: "Facets", which should really be a virtual desktop environment. Each facet would be a virtual desktop, replete with its own Spaces and Dock, so that we could organize by task. Applications could appear on one space per facet. That way we would keep the great window managment of Spaces and add the task-oriented divisions that are the point of a viritual desktop. And of course, we'd get to our facets with the good-looking cube rotation that Beryl pioneered and Apple used for Fast User Switching.

Facets is a great idea but you just know Apple would never implement it as to them it would probably be like having a virtual desktop inside of a virtual desktop and that would just confuse most consumers. Hardcore users like oursevles though would be over the moon!

Facets would be a great idea! If Apple really wanted to, they can take this relatively complicated idea and make it Just Work[TM]. Exposé & Spaces for window management, Facets for task management! That would be seriously cool and easily satisfy both camps of Spaces' lovers and haters.


Apple really should release an API for Spaces so that applications can be made aware of Spaces. So that apps know that they are being launched in different Spaces. It could also provide a unified way to notify the user that attention is needed. This really should be done instead of swooshing the user around Spaces to click on dialogs as it is now.

Another option is for OS X's window manager to be more aggressive when it comes to managing windows. For example, apps that can spawn new windows should be given an option to "launch in current Space", "launch in Space N", etc.

Furthermore, for keyboard junkies, there needs to be a way to control CMD+Tab's behaviour with Spaces. That is either let CMD+Tab switch between windows only within the same Space or switch windows from all Spaces. A small change like that would help placate the many complains from the Space-does-not-work-for-task-oriented-management camp.

Or even better how about having a miniaturised or resizable birds eye view on the desktop so you can keep an eye on ALL your spaces at once in real time - how cool would that be!

I was about to suggest that Spaces needs something like KDE's Pager -- a small representation of all virtual desktops and their contents, that sits in the taskbar allowing users to switch between virtual desktops -- to sit in the Dock or easily accessible from the Spaces menubar. Neutral Gamer's idea to make the desktop a live preview for all Spaces is pretty cool too!


Pure speculation here, but 10.6 is going to take another couple of years to come out, I really wouldn't want to wait so long to see improvement in Spaces. Now considering that 10.5.3's developer seeds are already pushing half a gb, surely Apple could push a big update to Spaces sooner?

Say mason.kramer, have you posted your Facets idea to Apple's Mac OS X feedback?

 

[heatmiser]

Hold on a sec, weizilla posted this exact same link 23 days ago in the same thread:



Tut, tut! Not like you heatmiser to make such a mistake ...

Anyhow, it is still a great tip and something I was longing for when I used to use Leopard, such a pity that Apple didn't make it a public preference. You kinda wonder sometimes why Apple put so many "hidden" features into their OS and then never reveal them. It's always a smart kid who reveals it for us.

I also agree with everyone else that a proper keyboard shortcut for moving a window to a space is a must and soon as Apple implement it I'll be straight back onto the Leopard bandwagon. Now let's see if the feedback straw I'm gonna submit to Apple on this issue will be the one to break their backs ...

Haha...quite correct! My mistake for not reading the thread thoroughly.

 

[weizilla]

hei i thought space was an revolutionary innovation on Leopard. who are you talking about this thing called linux's multiple desktop?
i bet linux has nothing better to do than copying Apple.

linux's multiple desktop has been around long before apple made spaces

 

[Neutral Gamer]

linux's multiple desktop has been around long before apple made spaces

I'm pretty sure chagla was being sarcastic, at least I hope he was - you can't always tell on the internet ...

 

[Domofloge]

I was having problems with spaces today. I had 2 word documents open and wanted each to have their own space, while I had another space to do other work in. I couldn't put each separate document in its own window. I had to keep both in the same window because of it being the same program. It's just a little annoyance that I wish could be fixed.

Actually, using Office '04 I am able to allow word documents to have their own "space." So you must be using the new version of Office or something...

 

[kuwisdelu]

Actually, using Office '04 I am able to allow word documents to have their own "space." So you must be using the new version of Office or something...

He was. It's a known bug in Word '08.

 

[ale500]

Disabling/Enabling the change of space with that command (posted 2 times) is ok, but what makes Spaces almost useless (for me) is the hold-the-button-near-a-border-of-the-screen-to-change-to-another-space. I want that disabled, removed, inactivated. X11 apps and VMWare fusion trigger that way too often, does anybody know how to disable that ?.

Btw, the unix implementation is simpler and superior, I hope they get to that point, or make it at least consistent between X11 and native Cocoa/Carbon apps.

Thanks in advance.