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pining

pining as it is called has been happening for many years in the derivative markets, and the option WEEKLYS just make it that much more of an issue/opportunity.

The stock will move to "pin" to the strike where a majority of the options contracts have pegged it. Don't try to buy/sell puts or calls too far outside that high volume strike.

I have often traded equities with the weekly options, especially during EARNINGS weeks and made from 300-3000% in a day or even hours. Granted, these are option contracts not actually OWNING the underlying equities, but still 100-1000% in an hour works for me.
 
more interesting

I think a more interesting analysis is that

If you bought AAPL first week of Jan 2011, you paid about 348-350$.

If you sold it recently, or near an average for the period, it was worth

348-350$, so essentially a gain of NOTHING during a huge market run up.

Holding appl for this most recent period of nearly nine months has been NO value to the "invenstor"

the only way to have made money with appl was buying and selling it frequently, or selling covered calls, or selling puts, or buying/selling the later around earnings and product releases.
 
I wouldn't lump finances with the market. One is controlling money that you have made while the other is high-stakes gambling.


That makes a nice soundbite; however, unfortunately, unless you want to stuff it under your mattress or in a cd (not much better), "controlling money you have made" by necessity includes some some knowledge of and involvement in the market.
 
I think a more interesting analysis is that

If you bought AAPL first week of Jan 2011, you paid about 348-350$.

If you sold it recently, or near an average for the period, it was worth

348-350$, so essentially a gain of NOTHING during a huge market run up.

Holding appl for this most recent period of nearly nine months has been NO value to the "invenstor"

the only way to have made money with appl was buying and selling it frequently, or selling covered calls, or selling puts, or buying/selling the later around earnings and product releases.


Bull$@:!. Aapl was stalled at around $250 last year for @5 months. Last September it started move up to 350 in January of this year. Has been stalled for a bit over 4 months.
 
I have often traded equities with the weekly options, especially during EARNINGS weeks and made from 300-3000% in a day or even hours. Granted, these are option contracts not actually OWNING the underlying equities, but still 100-1000% in an hour works for me.


Outrageous gains in options are possible, but so are huge losses. I've known many who thought they were smarter than the average investor and could "beat the house" on short term plays. The majority went broke. In the end, the writers generally win--which is why pinning occurs.
 
Wall St. Blues

Wait a minute so you're telling me those really high speed servers owned by private financial companies who are conveniently colocated in same data center as the NYSE ARE being used to game the system? who woulda thunk!?

Agree. I am just SHOCKED!


PS. Read Matt Taibbi in Rolling Stone Magazine, or his book Griftopia, if you want to set your hair on fire. He nails the Wall St bubble/fraud machine.
 
That makes a nice soundbite; however, unfortunately, unless you want to stuff it under your mattress or in a cd (not much better), "controlling money you have made" by necessity includes some some knowledge of and involvement in the market.

No I use my hard earned money to pay a nice gentleman to do it for me. If he does a poor job I fire him and find someone else. See? Finances vs Market!
 
sorry

Bull$@:!. Aapl was stalled at around $250 last year for @5 months. Last September it started move up to 350 in January of this year. Has been stalled for a bit over 4 months.

I'll rephrase a part of my post, but maybe read it thoroughly

For ALL of 2011 (so not NINE months, more like SIX months), an appl STOCK owner has made NOTHING
 
not really accurate

Outrageous gains in options are possible, but so are huge losses. I've known many who thought they were smarter than the average investor and could "beat the house" on short term plays. The majority went broke. In the end, the writers generally win--which is why pinning occurs.

Outrageous losses are NOT possible as long as one does not SELL PUTS or SELL CALLS (without holding the underlying asset), and even then one is only exposed to BUYING the underlying asset which they would then HOLD and it has asset value. Now, if a stock goes from 100 to ZERO and one has sold puts at 98$, yep, you just lost 98$x100xnumber of contracts.

Other than that, the only loss is the amount put up to BUY PUTS or BUY CALLS which can never vector to greater A LOSS than the purchase price but can always vector to greater a GAIN than the purchase price.
 
I'll rephrase a part of my post, but maybe read it thoroughly

For ALL of 2011 (so not NINE months, more like SIX months), an appl STOCK owner has made NOTHING


You're still wrong, and still trying too hard to paint a picture of dead money as opposed to paintng an honest, accurate picture. Mid-January to mid-May is 4 months, NOT 6 months.
 
Here's the Options Industry Council FAQ on "weeklies":

http://www.888options.com/help/faq/weekly_options.jsp

This is a pilot program, involving some Exchange Traded Funds and a small number of equities, including Apple:

AAPL Apple Corporatin
AMZN Amazon.com Inc
BAC Bank of America Corp
BIDU Baidu, Inc.
BP British Petroleum
C Citigroup Equity
CSCO Cisco Systems Inc.
F Ford Motor Company
GE General Electric Company
GOOG Google Inc
GS Goldman Sachs Group, Inc.
MSFT Microsoft Corporation
NFLX NetFlix Inc.

In addition to the normal series of options which expire on a monthly basis with expirations from 3 months out to a year, and LEAPS, with expirations ranging out to years, some exchanges have started trading options that are issued on a Thursday and expire a week from the following Friday.

Presumably, the exchanges and regulators will be looking at the effect on markets to determine whether the pilot will be extended to other equities, modified, or abandoned.

There must be some extraordinary volume going into these options to create the "pinning".

Prior to the introduction of weeklies, the pinning effect was NOT universal. It happened some months on some equities, but not always. It only occurs when there are a large number of expiring near-the-money options and there is an imbalance that will tend to push the stock one way or the other toward a strike price. The low cost of the expiring options create the opportunity for quick, short-term profits.

Again, this is a normal phenomena that has been going on as long as listed options have existed. The difference is that there are now options expiring every week, rather than just monthly, so on those equities that have them there is the potential for this to happen every Friday, rather than just once a month.

The options themselves are NOT MARKET MANIPULATION. An option is nothing more than an "insurance contract" on the underlying equity. For a price, you've put off risk to another party for a limited period of time. There are a number of well-known mathematical principals that guide option pricing and their interaction with equity pricing, and the "pinning" phenomena is one of these. It's been well-known and understood for many years.

In general, the availability of options increases market stability. Indeed, it's the primary motivation for futures, which are similar to (but not the same as) options. Commodity futures help stabilize our commodities markets so that weekly fluctuations in the market price of say, corn, doesn't cause the price of corn flakes to also fluctuate wildly on a weekly basis, since Kellogg's has locked-in long-term prices using contracts.

Now, PERHAPS the introduction of weeklies has increased the incentive for some other form of market manipulation intended to reap profits from these new options. But I haven't seen any suggestion that this is happening, nor of what mechanism(s) might be used for such manipulation.

The short-term nature of these options means that they have little appeal or use to long-term investors. I am hard-pressed to think of a legitimate need that the weeklies serve. Given that, I do think that one can make a case that they serve no useful purpose and are disruptive to market structure.

I guess it depends on your view of the role and limits of market regulation. Should derivative products be permitted only when they have a positive effect on market stability? Or should the gummet keep their hands-off, and permit those that want to place bets to place whatever bets they'd like, and damn the fallout?

Personally, I am leaning toward the viewpoint that weeklies should not go forward from here. Before listed options were invented, options were individualized contracts. They expired when the two parties agreed they would expire. So there were no grand expiration times when large numbers of options would expire all at once, and pinning could not exist, UNLESS there were some reasons or conditions that would cause large numbers of hedgers to enter into contracts expiring at the same time. (This still could likely create potential for pinning at end-of-year (tax strategies), at quarterly earnings announcements, etc.

The listed option system was invented because they have a much lower overhead cost than individualized options, and because they facilitate a liquid market in options. I'd rather see the market go back toward the old system. With computers today, there's no reason why options can't have individualized expiration dates based on the individual needs of hedgers.

Conversion costs are now WAY lower than they were at the advent of listed options trading, because the fixed commission system on equities was abandoned many years ago, and transaction costs have steadily dropped since. At a half a penny a share or less for commissions, one could make an argument that there is no longer a need for trading options, and thus no longer a need for fixed expiration dates, and instead go to a system where every option transaction is a conversion.
 
alright

You're still wrong, and still trying too hard to paint a picture of dead money as opposed to paintng an honest, accurate picture. Mid-January to mid-May is 4 months, NOT 6 months.

Alright, i'll agree with you its 5.5 months.

But, it has been an issue since dec regardless. Regardless since 2011 it's been DEAD MONEY. that doesn't mean I haven't been able to make many MBA's worth on selling puts and CC's,
 
Alright, i'll agree with you its 5.5 months.

But, it has been an issue since dec regardless. Regardless since 2011 it's been DEAD MONEY. that doesn't mean I haven't been able to make many MBA's worth on selling puts and CC's,


I have no idea why you're having so much trouble with basic stock charts. Aapl broke 340 for the first time 4 months ago. It didn't break 350 until early February. Stop throwing around silly claims and look at a price chart.
 
clearly

I clearly don't have trouble with the charts at all, least not as my portfolio cares.

apple broke 340$ on 1/10/11. If you want to consider that 120 days fine, I could care less.

In that time, I'm up 43% overall, with other vehicles and with selling apple puts every single month at 320$ or below. And writing covered calls on 550 shares of aapl. that has been the only way to make money on the stock since that time. Holding it has been dead money, unless one is willing to write the calls or sell the puts. There hasn't been anything more than about 4-6% max daily vol and even then only on very big vol days.

I still answer "yes" to people who ask me whether or not they should buy the stock, but I tell them there is better money to be earned elsewhere for the moment. I don't see any big catalysts in the near term. If they want to have a bit in their port, good.

i'm happy to say I've managed to make more money on this one stock than many will see in a lifetime. I've sent letters to stevej to thank him too. :)
 
I still answer "yes" to people who ask me whether or not they should buy the stock, but I tell them there is better money to be earned elsewhere for the moment. I don't see any big catalysts in the near term. If they want to have a bit in their port, good.
:)


That has been true for the past several months and will continue to be true. Until it isn't. Surprised to hear someone say that they don't consider WWDC and imminent NC data center catalysts. I wouldn't want to bet against them and associated announcements. And as far as a better, safer, stronger place to have money at the moment.......good luck.


["apple broke 340$ on 1/10/11. If you want to consider that 120 days fine, I could care less."

yes. I do. 120 days is not 9 months. It's not 6 months. It's not 5.5 months either. It's 4 months, as I originally stated.]
 
What does that have to do with day trading?
What happened to long-term investing in companies you believe in?

The market manipulating dirtbags in the minute-by-minute trading game make it difficult for those of us investing the old-fashioned (honest) way. :mad:
 
hmm

The stocks will keep rising for at least another year or so... Apple still hasn't reached the top to start falling IMHO :p

I don't know if I would take that bet, just my read. I think we're in for a flat to down market for a while here, I've been lighting up any long positions now for three weeks.
 
I don't know if I would take that bet, just my read. I think we're in for a flat to down market for a while here, I've been lighting up any long positions now for three weeks.


It should be interesting to revisit that quote later this year, especially wrt aapl.
 
I've been a stock investor in AAPL since early 2007 and I can tell you that from my vantage point there has been some rather strange activity for the past six months that seems to be based on the options market.

To whomever above is basically saying "this is how options markets work" you are ignoring that there is an effect on the "normal" workings of the regular market. AAPL shouldn't close every Friday at the specific numbers it's closing at, except for the options pricing. Personally, I'd like to see all options go away. Either buy the stock or don't.
I could not agree more. It's refreshing to read a sensible intelligent post on this topic.

I've been a very long term investor in Apple, entering when it was just over twenty dollars per share. Between Apple and Microsoft, I've exceeded my wildest dreams. Nothing is quite as sweet as the gains I've enjoyed. Yet I keep a wary eye on what's happening, since like you I've noticed a little funny business over the last six months.
 
Market is slightly up and Apple is down another $4.20

Really poor performance since mid February - can't figure out why.

Market manipulation resonates with many of us, options trading / day trading - some impact I'm sure. But yikes - we are down to the mid $330s again.
 
Market is slightly up and Apple is down another $4.20

Really poor performance since mid February - can't figure out why.

Market manipulation resonates with many of us, options trading / day trading - some impact I'm sure. But yikes - we are down to the mid $330s again.

Apple has to be the most oddly-traded stock on the planet. Heck, I bought mine the day after it fell 50% in a day back in 2001 or so (wish I had bought a lot more, of course). It's absurd. I've learned not to watch the day-to-day action, but hold on for the long haul. Rational thinking will prevail over the market manipulators over time. It's a shame that the stock market has become something more akin to a slot machine than a place where you invest long-term in companies you believe in.
 
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