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Too bad that you're not using Windows 7 in this discussion....

There are many improvements in Windows 7 in navigation between windows and apps - and much of what is being discussed is no longer true (e.g. many apps hide the menu bar - a tap on <Alt> makes it appear).

I've started playing with it some since the Beta was released. It has some nice things in it though there's still some things I don't like. I'm nowhere near as experienced in it as I am in Win2K, XP, 2003 server. But it will definitely get into the conversation.
 
Wow. I don't think any of this would make me cry but aren't you a wee bit defensive?

Let's see. No one says you can't maximize a screen. Drag it to full screen.
You mean as in drag the window up to the left corner, then go down to the right corner and yank the resize handle until the window fills up the screen? Sure, but that's like 10 times more cumbersome than clicking a single button, or dragging the title bar to the top of the screen like in Windows 7.

Or should we have 4 buttons. Is maximize the Mac max or the Windows max? If it's added, it wouldn't hurt my feelings. You said you wanted maximize like Windows as opposed to the Mac version. So, your version of a dictatorship is different how? :)
Umm.... no, I said I want it next to the Mac version. If by Mac version you mean the weird "+" button that sometimes resizes the window to fit the contents, sometimes not. Then you can click the green button and I can click the new purple or blue one. ;)

And a window (Mac, Windows or Linux) can take up the exact amount of space that a user wants. Just resize it. I do wish the Mac allowed resizing using any edge/corner of the window but I still prefer the Mac's maximize philosophy.
Well, my philosophy is that my clients pay me for actual creative work, not for moving and resizing windows all day, so I feel that changes to a workspace layout should be something that happens in an instant, preferably with a single click. Getting the exact layout you want is cumbersome on a Mac.

Actually a single menu bar is a better UI than a menu bar for each app. Talk about wasted space. Also, muscle memory. I know I can throw my mouse to the top of the screen and always hit the menu bar. I don't have to pay close attention to "which" menu bar I'm choosing (oops clicked the wrong app because I don't have everything maximized and can see multiple apps at once :) ).
Well, it goes both ways. My muscle memory is programmed to aim for the upper left corner of the window I'm working in, I don't see how you could accidentally end up trying to click the menu of a completely different window. That's much more likely to happen on a Mac, since the menu bar is context sensitive. One accidental click along the way and the menu bar you were heading for suddenly belongs to Finder, not the app you were working in.

Just looking at it logically without any bias toward one platform or the other, I feel that there's something fundamentally wrong about one part of the application being entirely separated from its actual window. If you have two 30" screens and you have some tiny instant messaging application window down in the right corner of the right screen, does it really make sense to you that any part of that application's UI is up in the left corner of the left screen? Try to think past your muscle memory now - does it make sense?

The Mac's menu bar was conceived in an age when dual or quad-screen setups were a distant pipe dream, when Macs had 9" screens and every pixel mattered. I had a similar menu bar on my Atari ST (=Mac ripoff) back in 1990 and it made perfect sense on my b/w 12" screen. But it makes zero sense today.

Actually Windows doesn't put the menu bar and the windows title bar in the same space. There's the title bar, the control box and the min/max buttons. Below that is the menu bar. Below that is the Ribbon (if using Office).
Well, it's not so much a question of where Windows puts things, the application developers decide where things go (within reasonable adherence to the UI guidelines, of course). IE has no menu by default... neither does WMP... or Safari 4... Adobe CS4 puts the menu on the title bar... but wherever it ends up, it's within the rectangular area where the rest of the app is, not on another planet at the top of the screen.
 
You mean as in drag the window up to the left corner, then go down to the right corner and yank the resize handle until the window fills up the screen? Sure, but that's like 10 times more cumbersome than clicking a single button, or dragging the title bar to the top of the screen like in Windows 7.

Umm.... no, I said I want it next to the Mac version. If by Mac version you mean the weird "+" button that sometimes resizes the window to fit the contents, sometimes not. Then you can click the green button and I can click the new purple or blue one. ;)

I guess I misunderstood your solution. If it's in addition to instead of, I wouldn't complain at all. :)

Well, my philosophy is that my clients pay me for actual creative work, not for moving and resizing windows all day, so I feel that changes to a workspace layout should be something that happens in an instant, preferably with a single click. Getting the exact layout you want is cumbersome on a Mac.

I typically don't resize my windows. I get them to the size I want and that's where they stay. So, to me, I spend the time doing the creative work. And with Spaces, there's even less screen resizing needed. I'll agree getting the layout can be more difficult at times. Other times, I find it more convenient. If the Mac had the resize on all sides/corners, that would help a lot.

Well, it goes both ways. My muscle memory is programmed to aim for the upper left corner of the window I'm working in, I don't see how you could accidentally end up trying to click the menu of a completely different window. That's much more likely to happen on a Mac, since the menu bar is context sensitive. One accidental click along the way and the menu bar you were heading for suddenly belongs to Finder, not the app you were working in.

That's true but I found that I've learned to not click until I hit the menu bar. I see people clicking the wrong menu bar frequently if they don't have the apps maximized (which is usually the case). One looks from upper left and then comes down the screen and there's the File menu. One has to train themselves to look for the active window title bar.

Just looking at it logically without any bias toward one platform or the other, I feel that there's something fundamentally wrong about one part of the application being entirely separated from its actual window. If you have two 30" screens and you have some tiny instant messaging application window down in the right corner of the right screen, does it really make sense to you that any part of that application's UI is up in the left corner of the left screen? Try to think past your muscle memory now - does it make sense?

It does make sense to me. Again, one location for the menu bar, easy quick access, I find. If the menu bar was the only way to get some functionality, then it would be different, but with keyboard shortcuts and mouse clicks, I find the need to go to the menu bar less on the Mac than on Windows. The cmd-key location helps since the thumb can use it without moving the hand as opposed to the ctrl key in Windows. It's easy to Cmd-C, Cmd-N, Cmd-V, Cmd-S and type so I don't have to use the menu bar as much. In windows not everything that's on a shortcut menu is available in the main menu so it's a bit different in what one can do with keyboard shortcuts.

The Mac's menu bar was conceived in an age when dual or quad-screen setups were a distant pipe dream, when Macs had 9" screens and every pixel mattered. I had a similar menu bar on my Atari ST (=Mac ripoff) back in 1990 and it made perfect sense on my b/w 12" screen. But it makes zero sense today.

Well, it's not so much a question of where Windows puts things, the application developers decide where things go (within reasonable adherence to the UI guidelines, of course). IE has no menu by default... neither does WMP... or Safari 4... Adobe CS4 puts the menu on the title bar... but wherever it ends up, it's within the rectangular area where the rest of the app is, not on another planet at the top of the screen.

Agreed and competition between the OS keeps making each one better. I spend probably half or more of my working day in Windows (usually in virtualized or remote (more so) settings) and the other half in OS X and away from work in OS X. I like that Windows 7 is looking to be much better than Vista; it'll keep making OS X better and I'm looking forward to Snow Leopard with its improvements.

Cheers
 
"Yes, and that's one of the main reasons why some people puke all over Mac and would never switch to one."

It almost sounds like you're being a little disloyal to Apple. Do you prefer Microsoft?
 
"Yes, and that's one of the main reasons why some people puke all over Mac and would never switch to one."

It almost sounds like you're being a little disloyal to Apple. Do you prefer Microsoft?
Umm... Why would I be loyal to any given company, unless I work for it?

Is there some oath of loyalty to the Church of Apple that members are forbidden to break?
 
I don't know. I guess I thought that in a mac forum people would be at least mostly partial toward Apple.

-gasp-:eek: you aren't a member!?:p

but seriously, which os do you prefer?
 
Am I missing something here?

I've opened Safari, iTunes, iPhoto, iWeb, and iMovie (all 09) and the style and colour of each window is identical in design and colour. Where is this "black" style that someone mentioned, along the lines of the mock up with Ratatouille?

Everything seems to be the "uniform" across the board on Apple programs on my iMac.
 
Am I missing something here?

I've opened Safari, iTunes, iPhoto, iWeb, and iMovie (all 09) and the style and colour of each window is identical in design and colour. Where is this "black" style that someone mentioned, along the lines of the mock up with Ratatouille?

Everything seems to be the "uniform" across the board on Apple programs on my iMac.

Look at the scroll bars and the new Music interface in iTunes and you'll get what they mean.

To be honest I want something else than what iTunes is using. Something new and NOT shiny black.
 
@ Anuba:

I understand where you're coming from. To be honest, I've never really been a fan of Microsoft's UI "design ethic", although there have been a few exceptions along the way.

While I know it's just about the same thing, I actually prefer Gnome's execution of the "menubar within the window" concept better than Microsoft's. Honestly, I don't know if I can explain why. I'm thinking it has to do with how Gnome is generally very Mac OS 9-like in overall nature, so perhaps it's just the blend of something I'm familiar with (and like) and one of Microsoft's (fairly few) "good" ideas.

Now if only Compiz could be made to work in Aqua...
 
It's simply not practical. Sure you're buying into oh it looks cool, but that has nothing to do with practicality.

I've never seen anyone use cover flow when they were legitimately looking for a specific thing. EVER.

This is a reply to an old post in the thread but I just wanted to chime in that I find Coverflow in Finder useful... sometimes. Sure... no one in their right might would use it as the default way to browse files.. but, specifically when I'm looking through lots of images that aren't named well (like lots of simulation results).

I don't find it all that useful for looking through documents though (well... powerpoint slides can sometimes work since it shows the title slide)... but that doesn't mean it's not a useful feature. Specifically, there is nothing wrong with having Coverflow available....

Friedmud
 
am i the only one that thinks that "aqua" dosn't remind me of a refreshing water ui? i wish apple would go "true aqua". make the ui actually look nice. look like there were actually water used in the ui. like the buttons look more like real drops of water. make it so i first see it and think, "that reminds me of aqua!"
now that would be major eye candy.

huh?:D
 
This is a reply to an old post in the thread but I just wanted to chime in that I find Coverflow in Finder useful... sometimes. Sure... no one in their right might would use it as the default way to browse files.. but, specifically when I'm looking through lots of images that aren't named well (like lots of simulation results).

I don't find it all that useful for looking through documents though (well... powerpoint slides can sometimes work since it shows the title slide)... but that doesn't mean it's not a useful feature. Specifically, there is nothing wrong with having Coverflow available....

Friedmud
I agree. For most uses, Coverflow sucks. But then on the other hand, using Coverflow to browse my Safari 4 History is a good aid.
 
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