Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Yeah! I don't remember that either. From their page:
Image

Now THAT looks a whole lot better. I didn't see pricing and it says "September 2012".

It still needs twice as many connections to the laptop than a Dell/Lenovo dock.

Or three times - since none of the ports are for DVI-D/VGA/DisplayPort....

Or four times - since my Dell E-Series dock has dual DisplayPort/DVI-D connections....

T-Bolt had so much promise - but Apple has completely destroyed the promise....
 
The Dell D-series docks are interoperable among all D-series laptops. The E-series replaced the D-series in 2009, and is still current. The E-series docks work with most systems from 2009 and later.

It's lock-in to a single manufacturer, Aiden.

LOL - what could be more proprietary than T-Bolt?

Why are you laughing? Dell's docks are far more proprietary than Thunderbolt. Matrox != Apple != Belkin. Customers can choose which of these thunder-docks works best for them. if they change their minds at some point, they can change thunder-docks without altering their laptop at all. That's what interoperability means.

How many systems have T-Bolt?

This question is a non-sequitur to your "proprietary" question. Any PC manufacturer could have gotten off their a.. and made a thunderbolt-compatible laptop by now. It's not Apple's fault that they have failed to do that.

Try to separate the reality from the hype.

The hype in this thread was your claim that "Windows laptops have supported many premium docking solutions since the last century". But all of those "solutions" are proprietary. They have failed to be interoperable: each of those docks locks you into a particular vendor.

As @MagicBoy keenly noted, the Dell, Lenovo, HP, etc. all want to lock their customers into their particular platform. If you have a Dell dock and want to switch to a Lenovo computer, you are SOL.

Thunderbolt holds the promise of breaking this proprietary docking logjam. The fact you are missing: this is Intel's tech, not Apple's.
 
It still needs twice as many connections to the laptop than a Dell/Lenovo dock.

Or three times - since none of the ports are for DVI-D/VGA/DisplayPort....

Or four times - since my Dell E-Series dock has dual DisplayPort/DVI-D connections....

T-Bolt had so much promise - but Apple has completely destroyed the promise....

AidenShaw, you're a piece of work. And you rarely post anything that is accurate.

The Belkin dock requires one connection to the PC. The Thunderbolt port (yes the Belkin dock has 2 of them) is also a mini DisplayPort, which can be converted to anything except dual-link DVI quite easily (a mini-DP to HDMI adapter even comes in the box). If you use a Thunderbolt display, you can daisy-chain two of them off of this box.

So the only additional connection you need for a laptop is power, but then again, there's no reason to assume that you'd be plugging this "dock" into a laptop. It will work with any Thunderbolt enabled PC, regardless of manufacturer, model or form factor.

LOL - what could be more proprietary than T-Bolt?

How many systems have T-Bolt? Some Apples from the last year. Big whoop.

Try to separate the reality from the hype.

What is more proprietary than Thunderbolt, which is licensed to multiple OEMs, are the docking solutions you were referring to, which are licensed to nobody, controlled entirely by individual OEMs, and revised every time a new feature needs to be added.

5% of all PCs shipped last year had Thunderbolt, thanks to Apple. And if you're paying any attention to the news from Computex, that number will be much larger 12 months from now.

Try to do some actual research.

Actually, T-Bolt would have a 6 Gbps PCIe SATA controller on the disk side, so it could be no faster than eSATA 6 Gbps.

(And possibly a bit slower, since some insane manager at Intel decided to put DisplayPort traffic on the T-Bolt lanes.)

T-Bolt 1.0 is DOA - and most people realize it.

Wait for T-Bolt 2.0 with actual support for optical links, and the elimination of the stupid requirement to share the line with DisplayPort signals.

All eSATA implementations depend on the capabilities of the SATA controller and the devices attached to them. So I'm not sure what your point is here, except to segue into another totally misguided and inaccurate statement.

The only scenario in which the DisplayPort traffic could possibly limit PCIe bandwidth given the current implementation of Thunderbolt is if you had two Apple Thunderbolt Displays daisy chained along with other devices and were trying to write (not read mind you) in excess of 8.4 Gbps of PCIe data.

I can just see you sitting there gritting your teeth and trying to will Thunderbolt out of existence. It's so cute. And just a few days after Thunderbolt began shipping from OEMs other than Apple no less.

The current generation of Thunderbolt has "actual" support for optical links, it just doesn't use silicon photonics. But why don't you enlighten us all and explain to us what benefits we end users could be realizing today if only Thunderbolt had an optical PHY?
 
Yeah! I don't remember that either. From their page:
thunderbolt-backView.jpg


Now THAT looks a whole lot better. I didn't see pricing and it says "September 2012".

It does look a whole lot better and for $40-50 more it seems to Me the Matrox is DOA.
Don't forget it comes with a ?huge powerbrick?, look at the right, 12 volt 5 Amps, where is all that power going to.
 
...and how many manufacturers make systems with T-Bolt?

That depends on what you define as a system. In this thread, we've been talking about Apple, Belkin, and Matrox.

When PC laptop manufacturers get off their tails and make thunderbolt-compatible systems, their computers should also interoperate with all of the thunder-docks.

This is distinct from the "solution" that you have discussed: a Dell computer working (only) with a Dell dock. That approach is so 20th century; it's time for customers to demand something better and non-proprietary.

A single manufacturer, in case you haven't counted.

That's not Apple's fault. Nothing is stopping PC manufacturers from getting the Intel licensing to use thunderbolt in their machines. Since they all already have healthy relationships with Intel, that should be a slam-dunk, right?

Dell is offering a proprietary dock. Apple is not -- they're not even making the dock. Do you understand the difference between the approaches of Apple and Dell?

Here is an article from earlier this year where Lenovo will start supplying laptops with thunderbolt. That article estimated a June delivery. We'll see what the PC competition does.

Thunderbolt is not proprietary to Apple. I don't know how to say it any more plainly than that.
 
Last edited:
That's not Apple's fault. Nothing is stopping them from getting the Intel licensing to use thunderbolt in their machines. Since they all already have healthy relationships with Intel, that should be a slam-dunk, right?

Dell is offering a proprietary dock. Apple is not -- they're not even making the dock. Do you understand the difference between the approaches of Apple and Dell?

Here is an article from earlier this year where Lenovo will start supplying laptops with thunderbolt. That article estimated a June delivery. We'll see what the PC competition does.

Thunderbolt is not proprietary to Apple. I don't know how to say it any more plainly than that.

Well, it kinda is Apple's fault. They got a year exclusive on Thunderbolt for agreeing to buy a quarter billion dollars worth of the controllers from Intel.

But anywho, other OEMs were allowed to start shipping Thunderbolt systems a couple days ago, so now it's on. Intel, Asus and MSI all have certified motherboards shipping, and Gigabyte was flaunting their wares at Computex yesterday.
 
Well, it kinda is Apple's fault. They got a year exclusive on Thunderbolt for agreeing to buy a quarter billion dollars worth of the controllers from Intel.

I don't know what "it" you think is Apple's fault. Are you referring to the misrepresentation by some posters that TB is proprietary to Apple?

But anywho, other OEMs were allowed to start shipping Thunderbolt systems a couple days ago, so now it's on. Intel, Asus and MSI all have certified motherboards shipping, and Gigabyte was flaunting their wares at Computex yesterday.

We shall see if the posters here finally understand this is not Apple-proprietary tech.
 
I don't know what "it" you think is Apple's fault. Are you referring to the misrepresentation by some posters that TB is proprietary to Apple?

I was referring to why Apple was the sole manufacturer of Thunderbolt equipped PCs until a couple days ago. They had an exclusive license with Intel until then.

It does look a whole lot better and for $40-50 more it seems to Me the Matrox is DOA.
Don't forget it comes with a ?huge powerbrick?, look at the right, 12 volt 5 Amps, where is all that power going to.

Hate to burst any bubbles, but it looks like Belkin is going big or going home with their dock, and asking $399.99 for it. If it's any consolation, their new Thunderbolt cable is only $44.99 though.

http://www.techpowerup.com/167153/B...rbolt-Express-Dock-and-Thunderbolt-Cable.html

The 60W are probably mostly providing bus power for the USB and FireWire ports, but the Thunderbolt controller draws 3.4W all by itself. Then there's the gigabit Ethernet, USB 3.0, SATA, and FireWire controllers, plus the USB audio device. Factor in loss for DC/DC conversion and leave a little headroom and 60W doesn't seem like too much overkill...
 
Last edited:
Here is me acting stupid and spending that much money for ONE USB 3.0 PORT THAT I ALWAYS WANTED!
 
That article mentions motherboards with T-Bolt, not systems.

You're just arguing semantics instead of admitting that the embargo has lifted and Thunderbolt is here for the non Apple set now.

What's silly is referring to a vaporware announcement for a product that is not available. Try to find those systems on Lenovo's website....

It's not vaporware. That model just isn't intended for the US market. You can buy one right now in Europe: http://geizhals.at/787695
 
AidenShaw, you're a piece of work. And you rarely post anything that is accurate.

The Thunderbolt port (yes the Belkin dock has 2 of them) is also a mini DisplayPort, which can be converted to anything except dual-link DVI quite easily

Wow, irony, thy name is repoman27.

Mini DisplayPort to Dual-Link DVI Adapter

----------

That's not Apple's fault. Nothing is stopping PC manufacturers from getting the Intel licensing to use thunderbolt in their machines. Since they all already have healthy relationships with Intel, that should be a slam-dunk, right?

Maybe, just maybe, PC OEMs are properly understanding Thunderbolt's niche in the industry and not trying to shoehorn it unto consumer devices ? ;)

----------

You're just arguing semantics instead of admitting that the embargo has lifted and Thunderbolt is here for the non Apple set now.

There's a big difference between motherboards aimed at the custom systems builder, the small shops and gamers, than actual systems, shipped by OEMs. You do understand it right ?
 
I'd buy this over Belkin's offer...

even after today's spec update for the Belkin.

While the Belkin seems better specced with all USB ports being USB 3, firewire and e-sata, IMO the Matrox offer is better targeted for more humble users, both in specs and cost.

I know very very few people who have a firewire peripheral. On the other hand, I know tons of people who have spare DVI monitors they wouldn't mind using... and -150 USD is a very very welcome price difference. I, for one, will certainly not mind all ports not being USB 3 and the lack of e-sata.
 
Maybe, just maybe, PC OEMs are properly understanding Thunderbolt's niche in the industry and not trying to shoehorn it unto consumer devices ? ;)

Or maybe not. Apple certainly thinks differently than other companies; the value of their ThunderBolt deployment will play out over the next couple of years.

It's radiantly clear in hindsight: Apple was in strategic conversations with Intel about Thunderbolt far before the conversion to Intel processors. Among other decisions, they had aligned on the mini displayport form factor for the Thunderbolt connection years before they had ThunderBolt ports.

Here are some obvious advantages to having ThunderBolt over the whole line:

  1. All TB-compatible devices will work with any current Mac product (presuming that the Mac Pro will soon be refreshed). They can be used interchangeably with any of those current Mac products.
  2. Customers can use Target Disk Mode to rapidly move files in bulk from one computer to another. That will have little value for some customers, but can be incredibly valuable for others.
  3. Service becomes easier for Apple. When Macs are brought for service, they are booted off of TB with Target Disk Mode. They may even use Flash drives on their Genius Bar servers to shave even more seconds off of the boot time and execution time for the diagnostics. Cutting a couple of minutes off of the mean time for an appointment is worth its weight in gold. Faster appointments should help with a positive customer experience.
  4. Thunderbolt was much more prevalent at this year's NAB show. It's only a matter of time before 1K or 2K cameras start creeping into the consumer marketplace, and ThunderBolt will be poised to deal with those devices quite well.
  5. Going the all-TB route makes for a very clean product line. It allows the I/O vendors to slug it out for the best valuable for devices and the best combination of interfaces to put on the Thunder-dock stations.
  6. The advantage of being ahead of the curve is setting the standards. My only real fear with the PC ThunderBolt laptops is that the manufacturers have made a brain-dead decision to go with something other than a mini displayport for ThunderBolt. I most fondly hope the number of existing devices will essentially mandate the use of the mini displayport by those other manufacturers.
Apple definitely made a big bet. Interestingly, I fully expect that many non-Apple users will ultimately benefit from Apple's bet. Apple's decision to have iOS browsers be Flash-free was a similar decision. A Flash-free web will ultimately benefit all users of the Internet; those who still need to provide legacy Flash apps can do it through Adobe's tools and distribute them through the various app stores. Do you also remember: USB tech really didn't take off until Apple committed to it?

While the Belkin seems better specced with all USB ports being USB 3, firewire and e-sata, IMO the Matrox offer is better targeted for more humble users, both in specs and cost.

I love discussions like this. Vendors will slug it out for the correct tradeoff of features and cost for their Thunder-ports. Some will hit the sweet spot, and some will fail. Apple and Intel haven't defined a product, they have defined a whole ecology for the best-of-breed peripherals and docks to slug it out.

What's silly is referring to a vaporware announcement for a product that is not available. Try to find those systems on Lenovo's website....

Vaporware is defined as hardware/software that's not available either because it is only a concept or because it is still being written or designed. Do you think the TB interfaces on these machines are still being designed? Really? :rolleyes:

AidenShaw, your claim that "Windows laptops have supported many premium docking solutions [comparable to Thunder-docks] since the last century" was a cute sound-bite, but it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. All of those old docks were proprietary to particular models and particular manufacturers; these new Thunder-docks should work with any computer with a TB port. That is a game-changer; the Dells, HPs, and Lenovos of the world will lose that bit of leverage to lock customers into a particular brand of computer. The correct slogan: Proprietary computer docks are so 20th Century. :D

Please tell us when you realize that these TB computers from vendors other than Apple are indeed real.
 
Last edited:
Do you also remember: USB tech really didn't take off until Apple committed to it?

No, because I don't live in an Apple centric world and back when USB appeared on the market, I was basically ignoring Macs alltogether (the 90s, when Apple was close to death and were completely irrelevant).

USB tech took off when Microsoft implemented proper support in Windows 98.

I'm not going to argue about TB. That's your opinion. Frankly, I think it will be another Firewire/IEEE 1394. It's certainly coming out that way from 3rd party vendors. Only Apple right now seems to be aiming it at the consumer. And I also don't think any of your conjecture about Apple envisionning it before 2005 is based on any kind of reality, but if it helps you to sleep at night, so be it.
 
What's silly is referring to a vaporware announcement for a product that is not available. Try to find those systems on Lenovo's website....

Vaporware is defined as hardware/software that's not available either because it is only a concept or because it is still being written or designed. Do you think the TB interfaces on these machines are still being designed? Really? :rolleyes:

AidenShaw, your claim that "Windows laptops have supported many premium docking solutions [comparable to Thunder-docks] since the last century" was a cute sound-bite, but it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. All of those old docks were proprietary to particular models and particular manufacturers; these new Thunder-docks should work with any computer with a TB port. That is a game-changer; the Dells, HPs, and Lenovos of the world will lose that bit of leverage to lock customers into a particular brand of computer. The correct slogan: Proprietary computer docks are so 20th century. :D

Please tell us when you realize that these TB computers from vendors other than Apple are indeed real.

I recall those days of using proprietary Dell, Compaq, and VAIO docks during my Windows days in enterprise. They were flaky too as I would have to sometimes reboot the laptop (after initial startup in dock) to get the signal to the external display or shutdown laptop, then disconnect laptop from the dock, reconnect laptop to the dock, and then power up again, then repeat again if that still didn't work. That cycle of hassle would sometimes take 15 minutes. I definitely don't miss those days of using "third-rate" computer products. :apple:
 
Do you also remember: USB tech really didn't take off until Apple committed to it?
No, because I don't live in an Apple centric world and back when USB appeared on the market, I was basically ignoring Macs alltogether (the 90s, when Apple was close to death and were completely irrelevant).

So your cultural orientation is the only one that could possibly provide the correct interpretation? Really? :confused:

USB tech took off when Microsoft implemented proper support in Windows 98.

Hardware is different from software. More importantly, addition of USB drivers is fundamentally different from completely dropping support for older keyboard tech. With the iMac, Apple completely dropped its proprietary keyboard/mouse connectors; users were required to use USB devices. This cutover on Windows machines would only be required when the hardware manufacturers dropped their keyboard/mouse ports.

The conversion from legacy ports was noted by this MacWorld article:

The iMac is the computer most credited with reversing Apple’s fortunes, its distinctive looks and playful colors instantly finding a place on consumer desks and in pop-culture history. In terms of specifications, the iMac featured the by-then-ubiquitous G3 processor, but unlike other Apple computers, it featured no legacy ports.

The iMac instead relied on Universal Serial Bus, a technology that offered plug-and-play ease for connecting peripherals and hot-swappable capabilities. Despite criticism about the lack of legacy ports, the USB market boomed around the iMac, and most early USB products came in white plastics and translucent colors that matched the iMac’s style. (The translucent color craze didn’t stop there; everything from USB hubs to George Foreman grills came in bright iMac-like hues.)

1998 was before I owned any Apple products, but I distinctly remember the buzz that this all-in-one machine caused. The commitment to USB was part of the buzz, and USB definitely rode the wave of that popularity to accelerate its acceptance on PCs.

I'm not going to argue about TB. That's your opinion.

Incorrect. I provided far more than my opinion. I listed six facts with reasoning why TB is a good bet for Apple. Your "That's your opinion" lacks any facts or reasoning whatsoever. While I am wholly uninterested in an opinion, I am highly interested in the reasoning and facts that went into that opinion. You provide neither.

Frankly, I think it will be another Firewire/IEEE 1394. It's certainly coming out that way from 3rd party vendors.

Yes, that is your opinion. The opinions of attendees and vendors at this year's NAB show was entirely different. They are very happy with ThunderBolt. Some are quite unhappy that Apple hasn't upgraded the Mac Pro with TB, but those are fondly hoping that Apple will address that deficiently promptly.

Only Apple right now seems to be aiming it at the consumer.

Apple has provided a platform for third-party developers to explore options. AFAICT, they're really not aiming anywhere; they're letting the marketplace decide what are the valuable niches for TB devices and Thunder-ports.

And I also don't think any of your conjecture about Apple envisionning it before 2005 is based on any kind of reality, but if it helps you to sleep at night, so be it.

Comments like this add absolutely nothing to the discussion, and they are just your opinion. Rather than off-topic banter about sleep habits, why don't you provide reasoning for your conclusions?


I recall those days of using proprietary Dell, Compaq, and VAIO docks during my Windows days in enterprise. They were flaky too as I would have to sometimes reboot the laptop (after initial startup in dock) to get the signal to the external display or shutdown laptop, then disconnect laptop from the dock, reconnect laptop to the dock, and then power up again, then repeat again if that still didn't work. That cycle of hassle would sometimes take 15 minutes. I definitely don't miss those days of using "third-rate" computer products. :apple:

Ha! Your description of the rigamarole of those proprietary 20th-century docks reminds me of the famous Tom Lehrer song:

First you get down on your knees,
Fiddle with your rosaries,
Bow your head with great respect,
And genuflect, genuflect, genuflect!​
 
Last edited:

Sorry I didn't bother to restate the entirety of what I had said a few posts earlier, so I'll just go ahead and quote myself now:

By all appearances the Matrox DS1 is sporting a dual-link DVI-I connector. There are a lot of very expensive displays in the wild that support dual-link DVI, and it is the one interface you can't convert to from DisplayPort with a sub $10 adapter. DP to dual-link DVI adapters need an external power source and generally run about $90 or more...

Thanks for providing a reference to substantiate my earlier claim, and next time I won't use such loose language as "quite easily." The reason why I said "except dual-link DVI" is because I recognized that many PC docking stations, including the ones AidenShaw was referring to, provide 1 or 2 dual-link DVI ports. The Belkin does not and it would cost quite a bit to connect a display requiring dual-link DVI to that dock, and connecting two would be out of the question.

Maybe, just maybe, PC OEMs are properly understanding Thunderbolt's niche in the industry and not trying to shoehorn it unto consumer devices ? ;)

----------

There's a big difference between motherboards aimed at the custom systems builder, the small shops and gamers, than actual systems, shipped by OEMs. You do understand it right ?

Don't those sites say "available in 2 to 3 weeks" ?

Plenty of professionals use "consumer" devices to do their jobs, and many consumers enjoy owning "professional" gear, for whatever reason. If you prefer Mac OS, Apple is your only legitimate hardware vendor, and their product stack is pretty streamlined. Practically every model gets used by pros, consumers, students and grandparents alike. I doubt any other OEM would even consider Thunderbolt across the board. Then again, they typically have hundreds to thousands of SKUs on their hands that they need to try to differentiate somehow.

Yes there is a difference between a motherboard and a fully prebuilt system.

I thought I had one of those Lenovo's in my cart, but then again, my German could use a little brushing up. Regardless, when shipping estimates for a newly released product say 2-3 weeks, that does not equate to the product being vapor. In your experience, is Lenovo known for introducing a new model, publishing the specs, and then not actually shipping it?

What you're doing here is kind of like arguing that the moon landing was faked. You can continue ad nauseum, but I find it hard to believe that you both haven't read enough about Thunderbolt by now to know the story.

Apple negotiated a one year exclusive which expired a couple months ago. The Cactus Ridge Thunderbolt controllers were released shortly thereafter, and the embargo on non-Apple OEMs shipping Thunderbolt systems was lifted at the end of last week. Thunderbolt systems designed to run Windows must also pass Intel certification to ensure that the UEFI/BIOS properly handles hot-plugging of Thunderbolt devices before they go on sale. Not surprisingly, an Intel motherboard was among the first to be certified. As more boards and systems become certified over the next couple weeks, they'll start to hit retail channels. The reality is that at least three major PC manufacturers besides Apple have licensing agreements in place and are testing the waters with Thunderbolt (Lenovo, Asus and MSI), and, not counting Intel, there are a few more on the motherboard front (Gigabyte, Asrock and Foxconn.) Denying that any of this is happening is just irrational.

Now I'm not making any claims as to the suitability of this technology for any purpose or particular target audience. Will the attach rate for Thunderbolt on PCs shipped by OEMs other than Apple ever exceed 10%? Who knows, probably not. Will Thunderbolt be (even further) marginalized by other technologies in the near future? Quite possibly. But the point is that saying "Thunderbolt is DOA" is patently false. In fact it's beginning its first significant expansion this month.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.