MBP 17" Uni: 9600m GT Graphics Problems

[crazylegsmurphy]

If i could be bothered to find it, I repeatedly said how i DID NOT want to have the hassle of a replacement.. but wanted to have a fix. It seems that there's a few people who DONT have this issue, and I am hoping that my new replacement will not have this issue either.

Fair nuff.

I am wondering if the people who aren't seeing the problem are because they're not taxing their computers enough. That's kinda why I have been pushing for some kind of standard, repeatable steps so we can determine this.

If everyone on this forum who is watching these posts takes their computer and runs it through a simple 1 hour test session and reports back, then if some are reproducing the issue and some aren't then it's a pretty good indication you're safe in getting a replacement.

If the problem is however that some people are doing no more than surfing Disney.com or using the 9400 chip, then we don't have an accurate idea of how many are effected. They might ALL be effected, or only a small number...my original and overall point is until we stop complaining about nonsense and start doing some real tests we're essentially ignorant consumers.

If you think Mapple is going to be quick on this then you obviously haven't been around this company long enough...I'm still waiting to hear about stuff from years ago that I had questions about. Lets be proactive consumers and become educated on the subject so that as many people as possible are on the same page.

If it turns out it's a design flaw and we ALL pitch in to determine that, then we might all be getting new computers a lot sooner than if we keep falling for the, "Oh, we've never heard of this issue" crap you're getting from Mapple.

 

[Next Tuesday]

Why does everyone on this damn forum like to argue and trash other people? The point of this post is to gather information and suggestions as to the solution to the problem....Either make a suggestion or go blog your rants on twitter.

 

[James812]

Have not seen any green lines or problems when using the 9600m. Played Fallout 3 for a long while and Gmod for 3 hour in Windows. No problems under load in OSX either but my temperature has never gone above 88 C even under full load.

 

[bronksy]

well.. you see...

Why does everyone on this damn forum like to argue and trash other people? The point of this post is to gather information and suggestions as to the solution to the problem....Either make a suggestion or go blog your rants on twitter.

Because people like to complain! Thats what makes the world go around.. well the forums world.

I have to say though.. i dont think people want to test their laptops because they dont know how to.. I also think that if they're happy they dont have the issue, then let them be. Its not for anyone here to get them to install software.. heat up their macs.. put them on a test whatever.. if they dont use the 9600 then so what.. as long as they are happy.

Also.. i'm a pretty keen Mac user, and its not actually that obvious how to select the 9600M chip.... I actually thought that the high powered chip kicked in when you run off mains power and kicked back to the 9400 when you're on battery.. I didn't realise it wasn't automatic. I'm pretty computer literate.

ALSO... its not actually apparent for the novice which card is what.. perhaps this is the issue.. its not actually labelled on the settings 9600M or 9400 etc, just says higher performance, or better battery life.. so its not actually THAT obvious.. unless you're in the know which one is which, or even HOW to get to it!

Just a thought..

 

[crazylegsmurphy]

Have not seen any green lines or problems when using the 9600m. Played Fallout 3 for a long while and Gmod for 3 hour in Windows. No problems under load in OSX either but my temperature has never gone above 88 C even under full load.

Thanks James!

Were your fans spinning up quite a bit? Did you experience the issue of the fans misbehaving if you put it into sleep?

 

[stepheneleven]

I had this problem as bad as anyone (see attached pic). I called apple this mornin at about 11am to start the replacement process, he said i could do that but that i had some time before i had to return it so we could do some troubleshooting first. He had me do a couple of resets and walla it fixed the problem. I'm sorry i dont remember them exactly but if you call them they should be able to talk you thru it, something with the ctrl +alt + power, and then one more that used a couple of letter keys as well. But let me assure you guys, i was getting the lines bad just from watching a video and just surfing the web, but now ive been testing it all mornin, and working my machine hard, for almost an hour i had 2 hd streams going and had WoW runnin in the background (dont play it, its just the only game in my house at the moment that i can test my gpu with hehe). Anyway I didnt see one line or artifact show up all afternoon and its been workin hard, so even if it comes back I think it would make sence that it is a software issue and not a hardware failure. Hope this helps out, good luck people.

 

[crazylegsmurphy]

Because people like to complain! Thats what makes the world go around.. well the forums world.

I have to say though.. i dont think people want to test their laptops because they dont know how to.. I also think that if they're happy they dont have the issue, then let them be. Its not for anyone here to get them to install software.. heat up their macs.. put them on a test whatever.. if they dont use the 9600 then so what.. as long as they are happy.

Also.. i'm a pretty keen Mac user, and its not actually that obvious how to select the 9600M chip.... I actually thought that the high powered chip kicked in when you run off mains power and kicked back to the 9400 when you're on battery.. I didn't realise it wasn't automatic. I'm pretty computer literate.

ALSO... its not actually apparent for the novice which card is what.. perhaps this is the issue.. its not actually labelled on the settings 9600M or 9400 etc, just says higher performance, or better battery life.. so its not actually THAT obvious.. unless you're in the know which one is which, or even HOW to get to it!

Just a thought..

Great, so perhaps it may have been a little more productive if way back at the start of this post you actually spent your energy posting solutions to what you just stated.

Maybe instead of bitching about how you don't feel like doing something you could have helped others by making a step by step guide based on the knowledge you gained.

Secondly, please...again stop arguing points that I'm not making. I'm not forcing anyone to test their computers. If they don't want to and are happy then so be it. This post again...for the 80th time is for those who are concerned about it and want to test it using actual rhyme and reason instead of just, "I found it, I'm taking it back!"

Maybe try being positive and productive and see if that helps. Right now you have nothing to lose, but if you insist on continuing to pick out parts of what I say for sake of argument...then it's just one more minute we're not getting things solved.

 

[crazylegsmurphy]

I had this problem as bad as anyone (see attached pic). I called apple this mornin at about 11am to start the replacement process, he said i could do that but that i had some time before i had to return it so we could do some troubleshooting first. He had me do a couple of resets and walla it fixed the problem. I'm sorry i dont remember them exactly but if you call them they should be able to talk you thru it, something with the ctrl +alt + power, and then one more that used a couple of letter keys as well. But let me assure you guys, i was getting the lines bad just from watching a video and just surfing the web, but now ive been testing it all mornin, and working my machine hard, for almost an hour i had 2 hd streams going and had WoW runnin in the background (dont play it, its just the only game in my house at the moment that i can test my gpu with hehe). Anyway I didnt see one line or artifact show up all afternoon and its been workin hard, so even if it comes back I think it would make sence that it is a software issue and not a hardware failure. Hope this helps out, good luck people.

Thanks for your feedback.

I have a few questions however...Do you think that the time resetting allowed the chip to cool down thus making the problem appear to go away?

I really wish you could have wrote down what the solution was. Do you happen to have any information as to the person you talked to or anything? What might be awesome of you is to call back and say you just called in and if they could transfer you back to the person who helped you, but this time ask them (or you yourself) to post somewhere on the internet this solution so we might all test for ourselves.

I'm happy you're no longer having issues....

 

[James812]

Thanks James!

Were your fans spinning up quite a bit? Did you experience the issue of the fans misbehaving if you put it into sleep?

I did the stress test in OSX with the default fan settings (2000rpm) just to see if any green lines or artifacts show up and none have yet. It goes up to 88 C and doesn't go any higher then that and the fans do not go any faster then 2000rpm. In windows I set the fans to 5000rpm when im gaming and never had a problem yet.
I am lucky i guess to far but im taking care of my laptop manually setting the RPMs when needed, but really we shouldn't have to.

 

[crazylegsmurphy]

I am lucky i guess to far but im taking care of my laptop manually setting the RPMs when needed, but really we shouldn't have to.

Ahhh..key!!

If in fact you're having to manually set your fans this might actually line up with what others are saying. It might be that the fan control software isn't calibrated correctly or something.

I wonder if the person above was asked to reset options or something that forced the fans into some kind of setting.

Would you be willing to try gaming for a few moments without manually setting the fans? I don't want you to burn out your chip obviously, but maybe you would be willing to see if this is simply a fan issue (using the default fan speeds).

 

[James812]

Ahhh..key!!

If in fact you're having to manually set your fans this might actually line up with what others are saying. It might be that the fan control software isn't calibrated correctly or something.

I wonder if the person above was asked to reset options or something that forced the fans into some kind of setting.

Would you be willing to try gaming for a few moments without manually setting the fans? I don't want you to burn out your chip obviously, but maybe you would be willing to see if this is simply a fan issue (using the default fan speeds).

I have played Fallout 3 for over an hour with the default settings for the fan. It stayed at 2000rpm and was burning hot (I do not know what temperature it was but it was obviously alot hotter then when i set the fans higher manually). I really think these problems come from high temperatures, but even with the high temperatures during stress my mac has yet to show any artifacts... so far.

 

[kastenbrust]

I have played Fallout 3 for over an hour with the default settings for the fan. It stayed at 2000rpm and was burning hot (I do not know what temperature it was but it was obviously alot hotter then when i set the fans higher manually). I really think these problems come from high temperatures, but even with the high temperatures during stress my mac has yet to show any artifacts... so far.

I've been telling people here for days its the fans. Apple are using the standard SMC with the new 17" Unibody's, and the 9600 graphics cards are hitting 90C due to it almost straight away after you start gaming, you have to install Fan Control 1.2 and set it to the correct thresholds (well it sorted my problems). This isn't a hardware issue

 

[James812]

I've been telling people here for days its the fans. Apple are using the standard SMC with the new 17" Unibody's, and the 9600 graphics cards are hitting 90C due to it almost straight away after you start gaming, you have to install Fan Control 1.2 and set it to the correct thresholds (well it sorted my problems). This isn't a hardware issue

I agree, the fans should be increasing rpm's when it hits 75-80 C but they don't. They just sit there at 2000rpm??? But when i manually boost the rpms to 5000 rpms during gaming the keyboard and metal of the case where the hinge area is is only warm, not burning hot when using the default smc settings.

 

[pdxflint]

I've been telling people here for days its the fans. Apple are using the standard SMC with the new 17" Unibody's, and the 9600 graphics cards are hitting 90C due to it almost straight away after you start gaming, you have to install Fan Control 1.2 and set it to the correct thresholds (well it sorted my problems). This isn't a hardware issue

It's been brought up a few times... seems reasonable, and a pretty easy "troubleshooting" issue to monitor fans speed vs. temps.

 

[iLog.Genius]

I had this problem as bad as anyone (see attached pic). I called apple this mornin at about 11am to start the replacement process, he said i could do that but that i had some time before i had to return it so we could do some troubleshooting first. He had me do a couple of resets and walla it fixed the problem. I'm sorry i dont remember them exactly but if you call them they should be able to talk you thru it, something with the ctrl +alt + power, and then one more that used a couple of letter keys as well. But let me assure you guys, i was getting the lines bad just from watching a video and just surfing the web, but now ive been testing it all mornin, and working my machine hard, for almost an hour i had 2 hd streams going and had WoW runnin in the background (dont play it, its just the only game in my house at the moment that i can test my gpu with hehe). Anyway I didnt see one line or artifact show up all afternoon and its been workin hard, so even if it comes back I think it would make sence that it is a software issue and not a hardware failure. Hope this helps out, good luck people.

All you did was an SMC and PRAM reset (remove battery, press and hold power button for 5 sec. (SMC) and CMD+option+P+R (PRAM)) and RARELY does that fix GPU problems. Like OP said, you're probably not seeing them anymore since the GPU temp. has decreased since you've reset your computer.

 

[crazylegsmurphy]

Does anyone know what the max/reasonable RPM's are on the fans? I can't find any information myself on the specific fans.

Lets assume that it's a fan control issue (which it seems to be). Is setting the fans higher beyond what they're intended, or has a simply mistake been made in the default settings.

I ask this because if turning up the fans solves the problem of the artifacts, but A) burns out the fans b) decreased battery life...then is it a fan problem or a design issue?

How loud are the fans at 5000 RPM?
(excuse my ignorance) Does that fan control software work in both Windows and OSX?

 

[pdxflint]

Does anyone know what the max/reasonable RPM's are on the fans? I can't find any information myself on the specific fans.

Lets assume that it's a fan control issue (which it seems to be). Is setting the fans higher beyond what they're intended, or has a simply mistake been made in the default settings.

I ask this because if turning up the fans solves the problem of the artifacts, but A) burns out the fans b) decreased battery life...then is it a fan problem or a design issue?

How loud are the fans at 5000 RPM?
(excuse my ignorance) Does that fan control software work in both Windows and OSX?

I'll try to answer that from the perspective of a 15.4" previous version MBP user, and maybe some others with an actual 17" unibody might have some variation on the theme... if it's alright with you...?

Just from a user perspective, the max speeds appear to be about 6000rpm, and for me a reasonable speed is anything <=3000rpm, simply because of noticeable sound above that speed. Usually when speeds hit a noticeable range because of their loudness, I'm become aware of higher temps, if I haven't already, but to stick to you question... it depends on what "reasonable" rpms are to you. I gave you my perspective, for what it's worth.

I don't understand your second question... sorry. I have no idea what default settings are with the 17", but on my MBP the default "idle" is around 2000 rpm. Whatever temp/rpm curve set by OSX as a default tends to ramp things up with mine, and somehow isn't doing the same on a fair number of 17inchers. It could be that a firmware update is needed for the MBP17" to bring this back into line with previous behavior. But I really don't know.

To answer your third question: who knows, really? You have a design that obviously requires certain compromises - thin package, high performance chips, heat, reliability... all issues. What would be the best "design?" Ideally, no fans at all, and no heat. But right now, it seems that as long as the fans do their job, and ramp up when needed, things should at least work. The fans aren't a big problem with burning out under normal use, so I don't think they're the problem, but the fan controllers might be. Is this a design flaw... only if it's inherent in the design, but if its an incorrect setting that can be remedied, then no, it's not a design issue in that sense.

Next question: How loud at 5000rpm? As stated, I only have a previous gen. MBP, so take this as just a bit of information. My fans are noticeable at 5000 rpm, but I can still work comfortably. They're not unpleasant... but I'm aware of them. I just set mine at 5000 to confirm, and it's definitely not silent. But...about half as loud as 6000 rpm. Dropping them to 4000 and it becomes really bearable, at 3000 it's almost silent compared, and at my default minimum of 2500 they may as well be off if there's any ambient noise in the room at all.

Your last question: Sorry, I don't know. I don't run Windows. I have a hunch (and maybe someone else can confirm) that if you're running VMWare Fusion, Virtual Box (free from Sun,) or something similar, with one or several Windows OS installs as instances within the Mac environment, fan control software like SMCFanControl should work. I can't see why it wouldn't.

You asked, and I hope it helps...

 

[crazylegsmurphy]

I'll try to answer that from the perspective of a 15.4" previous version MBP user, and maybe some others with an actual 17" unibody might have some variation on the theme... if it's alright with you...?

Just from a user perspective, the max speeds appear to be about 6000rpm, and for me a reasonable speed is anything <=3000rpm, simply because of noticeable sound above that speed. Usually when speeds hit a noticeable range because of their loudness, I'm become aware of higher temps, if I haven't already, but to stick to you question... it depends on what "reasonable" rpms are to you. I gave you my perspective, for what it's worth.

I don't understand your second question... sorry. I have no idea what default settings are with the 17", but on my MBP the default "idle" is around 2000 rpm. Whatever temp/rpm curve set by OSX as a default tends to ramp things up with mine, and somehow isn't doing the same on a fair number of 17inchers. It could be that a firmware update is needed for the MBP17" to bring this back into line with previous behavior. But I really don't know.

To answer your third question: who knows, really? You have a design that obviously requires certain compromises - thin package, high performance chips, heat, reliability... all issues. What would be the best "design?" Ideally, no fans at all, and no heat. But right now, it seems that as long as the fans do their job, and ramp up when needed, things should at least work. The fans aren't a big problem with burning out under normal use, so I don't think they're the problem, but the fan controllers might be. Is this a design flaw... only if it's inherent in the design, but if its an incorrect setting that can be remedied, then no, it's not a design issue in that sense.

Next question: How loud at 5000rpm? As stated, I only have a previous gen. MBP, so take this as just a bit of information. My fans are noticeable at 5000 rpm, but I can still work comfortably. They're not unpleasant... but I'm aware of them. I just set mine at 5000 to confirm, and it's definitely not silent. But...about half as loud as 6000 rpm. Dropping them to 4000 and it becomes really bearable, at 3000 it's almost silent compared, and at my default minimum of 2500 they may as well be off if there's any ambient noise in the room at all.

Your last question: Sorry, I don't know. I don't run Windows. I have a hunch (and maybe someone else can confirm) that if you're running VMWare Fusion, Virtual Box (free from Sun,) or something similar, with one or several Windows OS installs as instances within the Mac environment, fan control software like SMCFanControl should work. I can't see why it wouldn't.

You asked, and I hope it helps...

Cool. Ya I was mostly concerned with the fans having to run beyond capacity to cool the PC. I have in the past cranked up my fans as well but the whine I hear from them is so crazy that I turned it down the minimum I could muster.

I'll be running bootcamp with Vista being my main OS probably 98% of the time so I'm curious to see how the fans are handled in that environment.

 

[pdxflint]

You might want to give some thought to running your windows os in a virtual setting. You can use a bootcamp install within VMWare Fusion or Parallels, or just do the whole thing virtually. That way you won't have to re-boot just to get from Windows to OSX.

But I'm curious... if you only plan to use OSX 2% of the time, and you're only getting a Mac so you can develop websites which will be compatible with 12% of your website visitors who use Macs, basically using your Mac to "test" compatibility, it seems like a waste of money to me. Why not just develop your website(s) to current W3C standards. Safari on Mac, and Firefox on Mac both will be compatible, regardless of what platform you develop on. I've done more than a little website development using a Thinkpad, and everything I did was fine on Macs. You could test using Firefox and Safari for Windows, which should reflect the same results as browsing on a Mac.

Anyway, I think you might find plenty of other great uses for your MBP when you get it instead of just using it 2% of the time. But, it's your dime.

 

[crazylegsmurphy]

You might want to give some thought to running your windows os in a virtual setting. You can use a bootcamp install within VMWare Fusion or Parallels, or just do the whole thing virtually. That way you won't have to re-boot just to get from Windows to OSX.

But I'm curious... if you only plan to use OSX 2% of the time, and you're only getting a Mac so you can develop websites which will be compatible with 12% of your website visitors who use Macs, basically using your Mac to "test" compatibility, it seems like a waste of money to me. Why not just develop your website(s) to current W3C standards. Safari on Mac, and Firefox on Mac both will be compatible, regardless of what platform you develop on. I've done more than a little website development using a Thinkpad, and everything I did was fine on Macs. You could test using Firefox and Safari for Windows, which should reflect the same results as browsing on a Mac.

Anyway, I think you might find plenty of other great uses for your MBP when you get it instead of just using it 2% of the time. But, it's your dime.

Actually, you would think so...but it's actually not the case. My business partner in England uses a Mac 100% of the time and we've found on many occasions where there were issues cross platform.

We do develop to W3C standards, but we also do other things that aren't specifically web related. The thing is that I can't be guessing...I deal with some big clients and I can't afford to assume it works. As I said before I need to know it's working on both platforms 100% and that is why I'm planning on using bootcamp because I want to make sure it's as close to 100% the same as my end users would be using.

Trust me I wish I could have spent $1000 or so less on a similar PC and not paid Mapple Tax, but if it can easily let me jump back and fourth then it's fine with me.

The other reason I'll be using Vista 98% of the time is that I don't like OSX. I never have. Call it personal preference but I simply don't like how it's designed.

 

[Mark2000]

Anyway, I think you might find plenty of other great uses for your MBP when you get it instead of just using it 2% of the time. But, it's your dime.

Not to mention Safari for Windows ought to render pages identically to the one for Mac.

 

[crazylegsmurphy]

Not to mention Safari for Windows ought to render pages identically to the one for Mac.

There are other differences as well. Mac and Windows renders fonts and colors differently. It's not so much the difference between browsers, but in the differences between the two operating systems and how they run.

As I said before, I can't write help files for the Mac if I don't have one to use. It know it seems strange for such a small number of users, but the projects and clients we have, I can't afford to simply assume.

 

[stepheneleven]

nevermind that reset that they had me do fixed it for about 12 hours. Its weird I worked my machine hard all day and then later when i booted and watched a vid it started all over again and is worse than ever, dont know what to think anymore. Oh well, back to the replacement idea i guess.

 

[PLin]

I was able to reproduce the GPU artifacts within minutes of playing 3 HD movie trailers simultaneously in QuickTime even though the CPU temp was less than 80 degrees C. I'm not sure what the GPU temp was. Resetting the PRAM didn't help, but resetting the SMC did.

After resetting the SMC, I played the same 3 HD movie trailers on loop for almost 8 hours, and even though the CPU temp was almost 100, the artifacts didn't appear. I even played a 4th HD clip for a while, which increased the CPU load even more, and still no artifacts.

 

[Hopsdaballa04]

I was able to reproduce the GPU artifacts within minutes of playing 3 HD movie trailers simultaneously in QuickTime even though the CPU temp was less than 80 degrees C. I'm not sure what the GPU temp was. Resetting the PRAM didn't help, but resetting the SMC did.

After resetting the SMC, I played the same 3 HD movie trailers on loop for almost 8 hours, and even though the CPU temp was almost 100, the artifacts didn't appear. I even played a 4th HD clip for a while, which increased the CPU load even more, and still no artifacts.

I am having the same problem with my MBP 17in. So during the 8 hours did you ever restart the computer or let it go to sleep? If you haven't could you please try letting it go to sleep and then doing a couple restarts.