MBP 2011 w/ Mavericks Heat

[undesign]

It's a bit of an art, but you actually can get better results via the 'grain of rice' method - if you look at your way, you can trap small bubbles of air, reducing the thermal conductivity between the die and heatsink. The grain of rice method removes that.

That said, looks like good results - of course, lapping the heatsink and ensuring no trapped air could lead to better results

Good to see that even the Apple genius' put too much heatsink compound in.

I've only used AS-5 in ideal situations and never on a dual heatsink assembly, so maybe wait for some others to weigh in on what I'm about to say (I'm not sure and I might be wrong).

My first impression in looking at your photographs is that you might have trapped some air between the die and heatsink. Given the texture of AS-5 and the mount pressure here, it's hard for me to think otherwise.

You should see a few degrees of improvement over the next 200 hours as it cures, but I think it could be much better.

My advice would be to follow Arctic Silver's exact instructions for lidless mobile packages:

http://www.arcticsilver.com/pdf/appmeth/int/ss/intel_app_method_surface_spread_v1.1.pdf

I would do everything exactly as instructed, including tinting the heatsink. They suggest using a single-edge razor blade to spread onto the die and an old credit card to tint the heatsink.

Again, maybe first wait to see what others have to say. It has been a while since I've used this.

Thanks guys!

The way I actually spread the thermal paste was with my finger wrapped in plastic foil, like this:

I looked around online as to how others were doing it and came across this method:

This is taken from this thread:

http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=496397

The instructions are:

Step 1 - Fold the straw to form a kink in it, resulting in a nice flat area about 1/4" wide,and begin to spread your AS5 with it.

Step 2 - Continue to spread the AS5 until it is very thin, like you usually would. You should still see tracks where you spread with the straw, which is normal.

Step 3 - Now, take the straw and lie it parallell to the CPU, and push down with just enough force to spread the AS5 more, and slide the straw up and down a few times to get rid of the straw "tracks".

I might try this out later, I'll give my laptop about 1-2 weeks to 'break in' and see what the temperatures are like then.

Judging by Swampus' comments about pockets of air and referencing my photos, I think its definitely possibly that that is what happened considering the very top of the thermal paste wasn't completely/perfectly flat, but rather had with very small points sticking upwards.

Now that I've taken apart the laptop once, doing this again will be fairly simple. To be honest, its not *that* difficult, but it is tedious. I took extra time with it, probably about 1.5-2 hours with a quick dinner break in between.

 

[Swampus]

Now that I've taken apart the laptop once, doing this again will be fairly simple. To be honest, its not *that* difficult, but it is tedious. I took extra time with it, probably about 1.5-2 hours with a quick dinner break in between.

Aye. Not difficult, just tedious. For your first time, you chose one of the more difficult compounds to work with, so don't feel bad!

 

[undesign]

Aye. Not difficult, just tedious. For your first time, you chose one of the more difficult compounds to work with, so don't feel bad!

Well, I've applied thermal paste before on an ATI HD3870 on my old Mac Pro, the fan was much too noisy and I opted to get a large heat sink to make it silent.

As for my MacBook, I've upgraded the RAM, Hard Drive and replaced the optical drive with an optibay. I'm not completely new to this, but meddling with bare CPU's with thermal paste has always frightened me a little considering the potential damage it could do.

 

[Swampus]

...Good to see that even the Apple genius' put too much heatsink compound in.

Heh. They're just following instructions. From page 213 of the 2010/2011 Technician Guide:

It would be silly, after all, to use an entire syringe for each microprocessor.

 

[Swampus]

Well, I've applied thermal paste before on an ATI HD3870 on my old Mac Pro, the fan was much too noisy and I opted to get a large heat sink to make it silent.

As for my MacBook, I've upgraded the RAM, Hard Drive and replaced the optical drive with an optibay. I'm not completely new to this, but meddling with bare CPU's with thermal paste has always frightened me a little considering the potential damage it could do.

Apologies. Yes, it's tedious even for the experienced.

You're also right about the dangers. To others following this thread, I don't mean to make it sound like a walk in the park. There are dangers. If you're researching this for yourself, be sure to also read about the dangers posed by ESD and the appropriate way to mitigate those dangers. IMHO, ESD poses the biggest risk, for different reasons, for both the novice and the enthusiast.

 

[undesign]

Apologies. Yes, it's tedious even for the experienced.

You're also right about the dangers. To others following this thread, I don't mean to make it sound like a walk in the park. There are dangers. If you're researching this for yourself, be sure to also read about the dangers posed by ESD and the appropriate way to mitigate those dangers. IMHO, ESD poses the biggest risk, for different reasons, for both the novice and the enthusiast.

Well, not just ESD, but the ribbons and connectors, a lot of them are very fragile so EXTRA care needs to be taken into consideration. The toughest part for me was the ribbon with the latch near the battery and a similar one near the magsafe connector.

I dont think I'll be needing to reference any of the videos the next time around.

For the record, I've only got Chrome open right now, 5 tabs open, download 100mb zip file and running the MBP in clamshell mode with a 24" @ 1920x1200 and the fans ramped up to 4,100 RPM and the temperatures are at 57C. Hmmm....

 

[Swampus]

For the record, I've only got Chrome open right now, 5 tabs open, download 100mb zip file and running the MBP in clamshell mode with a 24" @ 1920x1200 and the fans ramped up to 4,100 RPM and the temperatures are at 57C. Hmmm....

You'd be using the discreet now that it's hooked up to an external display. Your previous temperature post indicated that you were running with the integrated at that time.

 

[Gav Mack]

I'd say for a first go you've done a lot more than ok! After seeing your temps were that high last year I would have checked the alignment of the heatpipe and tinted like Doward has done in his video.

Have to 'run in' AS-5 now, it usually starts low, goes up then settles down over a week or two...

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Heh. They're just following instructions. From page 213 of the 2010/2011 Technician Guide:

Image

It would be silly, after all, to use an entire syringe for each microprocessor.

View attachment 450930

Says it all doesn't it?

A tube of AS-5 lasts me months!

 

[Doward]

Says it all doesn't it?

A tube of AS-5 lasts me months!

I get about a dozen applications out of a basic tube of AS5

 

[undesign]

For anyone who's curious, here are some screenshots of my temperatures from about a year ago before my GPU died (reply below taken from another thread)

Did you also monitor your temps before the logic board replacement?

I'd be curious to hear from anyone else who monitors temps and has had their logic board replaced for this problem.

It might be worth taking some extra steps to verify that heatsink fits correctly, that both sections of the heatsink fit flat against their corresponding dies. As I mentioned in the other thread, mine fit together perfectly (I've never had any problems with mine), but I'm not so sure that's always the case.

It would be helpful to know whether or not some manufacturing variations in the heatsink assembly is playing a role in these failures. All information is good. It would be helpful to know if it is. It would also be helpful to rule it out.

I have a couple screenshots of my desktop from a year+ ago which shows the temps in iStat. Click on the images for a larger view.

In April, 2012 running some apps (adium, coda, mamp, espresso and firefox for 2.3gb of RAM usage and minimal CPU usage) for a total of 71C:



In January, 2013, running completely idle with 1gb ram usage (likely after boot): 62C



I dont think I bothered much with the temperatures before.

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I'd say for a first go you've done a lot more than ok! After seeing your temps were that high last year I would have checked the alignment of the heatpipe and tinted like Doward has done in his video.

Have to 'run in' AS-5 now, it usually starts low, goes up then settles down over a week or two..

I'm confused... What does tinted mean? (in regards to the heatpipe).

 

[Gav Mack]

For anyone who's curious, here are some screenshots of my temperatures from about a year ago before my GPU died (reply below taken from another thread)



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I'm confused... What does tinted mean? (in regards to the heatpipe).

Tinted means prime the surface of the heatpipe (see the Artic Silver PDF) I would use a bit of Chrome cleaner as Doward does on his youtube video. Polishing the surface of the heatpipe element for better contact with the chips. Will have to use the Artic purifier and a spare clean cloth afterwards though.

 

[undesign]

Tinted means prime the surface of the heatpipe (see the Artic Silver PDF) I would use a bit of Chrome cleaner as Doward does on his youtube video. Polishing the surface of the heatpipe element for better contact with the chips. Will have to use the Artic purifier and a spare clean cloth afterwards though.

Ah. Yeah, thats the only step I didnt do. I don't have the buffing cream and not sure where to buy it locally in Canada. Instead, I rubbed down the heat sink with isopropanol (99%) about 7 times.

 

[Gav Mack]

Ah. Yeah, thats the only step I didnt do. I don't have the buffing cream and not sure where to buy it locally in Canada. Instead, I rubbed down the heat sink with isopropanol (99%) about 7 times.

Any kind of fine metal polishing compound will do, Chrome polish is particularly fine. May also want to examine if your heat pipe assembly is absolutely level with a metal ruler or length of a spirit level as I have seen assemblies that have been every so slightly bent in the past before.

 

[undesign]

Any kind of fine metal polishing compound will do, Chrome polish is particularly fine. May also want to examine if your heat pipe assembly is absolutely level with a metal ruler or length of a spirit level as I have seen assemblies that have been every so slightly bent in the past before.

Found a shop for the mothers metal polish! I'll be buying some probably tomorrow or a week from now once I see the temps stabilize with the thermal paste I've done yesterday.

In regards to the heat pipe, I'll check that later on.

I should mention, I cleaned out the fans too, there was some fine dust on the blades, I got rid of almost all of it with an old toothbrush and cotton swabs.

Thanks again for the help

 

[Gav Mack]

Found a shop for the mothers metal polish! I'll be buying some probably tomorrow or a week from now once I see the temps stabilize with the thermal paste I've done yesterday.

In regards to the heat pipe, I'll check that later on.

I should mention, I cleaned out the fans too, there was some fine dust on the blades, I got rid of almost all of it with an old toothbrush and cotton swabs.

Thanks again for the help

No problem - if the pipe is ever so slightly bent please be very careful how you bend it back into shape. Apply pressure and ever so slightly increase the pressure and check with the ruler again. Too much pressure too quickly can snap them or bend them totally out of shape.

 

[undesign]

New tests:

Here's my temperature when running Hanbrake at full load. GPU however isn't used I don't think.... at least not much. 3 tabs were open in Chrome.

Click on image for full size.



Initially when I started conversion, temperatures reached 96C, but fans turned on fairly quickly and reduced the heat down to the 80C mark which is steadily holding on to this for the last half hour.

Idle temps vary, if not doing anything at all, eventually the laptop cools down to 40-42C.

These numbers are also using a 24" external LCD connected via thunderbolt and the MacBook Pro closed in clamshell mode. When not in clamshell and using the MBP's internal LCD only, idle temps can hover around 33-39C.

 

[Swampus]

New tests: ...

Looking good! And you're not even close to that 200 hour mark yet.

Another thing that you can do with HandBrake (not necessary with your new temps, but handy to keep in mind if you're using it outside on a hot summer day) is limit the CPU usage. In your picture, in the "Advanced Options Panel" you could, for example, add ":threads=3" to the end of the options string to run on the first three physical cores and leave the 4th core to handle I/O duty. No spaces, in your example, would look like this:

b-adapt=2:rc-lookahead=50:keyint=15:keyint_min=4:threads=3

You can use any number between 1 and 8, but handbrake doesn't benefit much from virtual cores and performance does take a hit for each physical core that is dropped. Someone also mentioned recently that they got good results (same framerate, but lower temperatures) by turning off TurboBoost (edit: this comment by priitv8. I haven't tried it yet.)

Again, though, I think your temps look great. Just a handy thing to keep in mind if you're ever working in a punishing environment.

 

[undesign]

Looking good! And you're not even close to that 200 hour mark yet.

Another thing that you can do with HandBrake (not necessary with your new temps, but handy to keep in mind if you're using it outside on a hot summer day) is limit the CPU usage. In your picture, in the "Advanced Options Panel" you could, for example, add ":threads=3" to the end of the options string to run on the first three physical cores and leave the 4th core to handle I/O duty. No spaces, in your example, would look like this:

b-adapt=2:rc-lookahead=50:keyint=15:keyint_min=4:threads=3

You can use any number between 1 and 8, but handbrake doesn't benefit much from virtual cores and performance does take a hit for each physical core that is dropped. Someone also mentioned recently that they got good results (same framerate, but lower temperatures) by turning off TurboBoost (edit: this comment by priitv8. I haven't tried it yet.)

Again, though, I think your temps look great. Just a handy thing to keep in mind if you're ever working in a punishing environment.

I'm thinking of doing one of a couple things:

1) Buy a 2012 15" MacBook Pro with an Nvidia 650M gpu, 2.6ghz, 8gb RAM and High Res screen for $1,500 CAD. I could do this monday (theres a guy willing to sell his locally)... I know the 650M is a significantly better GPU than the 6750M but this could potentially alleviate the inevitable failure of the 6750M, I have my doubts about it lasting more than another 2 years.

2) Buy a simple Mac Mini for these types of punishing tasks. I do a lot of Handbrake conversions for my movie library and will need to do a lot more when I get around to converting analog to digital video from my old 8mm tapes.

I could potentially do both and leave the Mac Mini for future use as a HTPC.

 

[Swampus]

...I have my doubts about it lasting more than another 2 years.

It's hard to say since it's not yet known exactly what is going on with these 2011 models. We don't know what variables are in play and we don't know what percentage have the potential for this early GPU solder joint failure. Just because some have reported failure in the replacement boards doesn't mean that all have or that you will.

I get what you're saying though. In your case, I'd probably be more concerned about the future in relation to your need for an external monitor. I think the i7 BGA packages in these machines would survive a nuclear strike. The GPU packages, for whatever reason, not so much.

Is your new board still under warranty? If so, this might be a good time to sell it if you're leaning in that direction. It would give the buyer a little time to stress-test it.

 

[undesign]

It's hard to say since it's not yet known exactly what is going on with these 2011 models. We don't know what variables are in play and we don't know what percentage have the potential for this early GPU solder joint failure. Just because some have reported failure in the replacement boards doesn't mean that all have or that you will.

I get what you're saying though. In your case, I'd probably be more concerned about the future in relation to your need for an external monitor. I think the i7 BGA packages in these machines would survive a nuclear strike. The GPU packages, for whatever reason, not so much.

Is your new board still under warranty? If so, this might be a good time to sell it if you're leaning in that direction. It would give the buyer a little time to stress-test it.

The replacement board is backed by 90 day warranty. I actually paid for it with a Visa that extends warranty on all my electronics by an additional year... but I'm not sure how that plays with replacement parts.

 

[Gav Mack]

New tests:

Here's my temperature when running Hanbrake at full load. GPU however isn't used I don't think.... at least not much. 3 tabs were open in Chrome.

Click on image for full size.

[url=http://www.ungraphic.com/stuff/macbook/temps-after-load-sm.jpg]Image[/URL]

Initially when I started conversion, temperatures reached 96C, but fans turned on fairly quickly and reduced the heat down to the 80C mark which is steadily holding on to this for the last half hour.

Idle temps vary, if not doing anything at all, eventually the laptop cools down to 40-42C.

These numbers are also using a 24" external LCD connected via thunderbolt and the MacBook Pro closed in clamshell mode. When not in clamshell and using the MBP's internal LCD only, idle temps can hover around 33-39C.

I don't think you need to take it apart again by the look of that lot. Marvellous

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I'm thinking of doing one of a couple things:

1) Buy a 2012 15" MacBook Pro with an Nvidia 650M gpu, 2.6ghz, 8gb RAM and High Res screen for $1,500 CAD. I could do this monday (theres a guy willing to sell his locally)... I know the 650M is a significantly better GPU than the 6750M but this could potentially alleviate the inevitable failure of the 6750M, I have my doubts about it lasting more than another 2 years.

2) Buy a simple Mac Mini for these types of punishing tasks. I do a lot of Handbrake conversions for my movie library and will need to do a lot more when I get around to converting analog to digital video from my old 8mm tapes.

I could potentially do both and leave the Mac Mini for future use as a HTPC.

I reckon your MBP is going to be fine for a while yet.

Punishing tasks are not for a mini, they get just as hot, my video customers have to sit them on cooling pads like the MBP. If you have room for one and you have a lot of hard transcoding work to do I would seriously consider getting a used 4/5,1 Mac Pro. There will be a lot of them on the market once the new black can is available and the prices will drop. My old 2008 3,1 is pretty outdated by Mac Pro standards and much slower than the newer models but the twin 3.2 quad core Xeons and 32gb ram takes more punishment than I can throw at it with aplomb. I should have bought one years ago and will be upgrading it to probably a 5,1 with twin hex core chips when I get one cheap enough transferring all the upgrades and drives into the newer model. It's already fast enough for me as it is!

I paid $640 USD equivalent for my tower, $540 in reality cos I sold the raid card on eBay!

 

[Swampus]

I don't think you need to take it apart again by the look of that lot. Marvellous

Aye. I do agree with that just in case it was unclear. Ignore what I said about the possibility of trapped air. These results speak for themselves.

 

[Gav Mack]

Aye. I do agree with that just in case it was unclear. Ignore what I said about the possibility of trapped air. These results speak for themselves.

All good things come to those that wait - about a week or two

 

[Swampus]

...Punishing tasks are not for a mini, they get just as hot, my video customers have to sit them on cooling pads like the MBP. If you have room for one and you have a lot of hard transcoding work to do I would seriously consider getting a used 4/5,1 Mac Pro. There will be a lot of them on the market once the new black can is available and the prices will drop. My old 2008 3,1 is pretty outdated by Mac Pro standards and much slower than the newer models but the twin 3.2 Xeons and 32gb ram takes more punishment than I can throw at it with aplomb. I should have bought one years ago and will be upgrading it to probably a 5,1 with twin hex core chips when I get one cheap enough transferring all the upgrades and drives into the newer model. It's already fast enough for me as it is!

Another +1. I have the same pro as you and the same upgrade plans. A beast of a machine.

For a dedicated HandBrake machine, another option would be a cheap Windows based mATX build. You'd get QuickSync that way.

 

[Gav Mack]

Another +1. I have the same pro as you and the same upgrade plans. A beast of a machine.

For a dedicated HandBrake machine, another option would be a cheap Windows based mATX build. You'd get QuickSync that way.

I love my beast, it monsters everything I throw at it and my MBP is downgraded to menial tasks now like I actually prefer it to be. Though it has far more fans doing hard work it barely makes more noise whereas it's always a worry hearing your MBP go in hovercraft mode. Like the upgradeable nature of it, with add on cards and flashed my PC GTX 680 with mac EFI bios which sped up CS6 a lot. All the parts I have bought will just go in a newer one. I'm just gutted that when I had 3 12 core models 18 months ago I didn't keep one for myself!