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MacOS no longer allowing 3rd-party kernel extensions has been overall a good thing, albeit a bit slow in responding to developer needs (see audiohijack). VPN drivers in particular have improved greatly, it used to be I'd have to wait six months to upgrade to a new MacOS release because the VPN vendor hasn't bothered to update.
But it also allowed Apple to ignore third party firewalls for their own communications with Apple.
 
Basically, Windows allows kernel extensions because Windows Defender uses a kernel extension. They leave this capability open to other developers because Microsoft has an effective monopoly on desktop and does not want the appearance of pushing out antivirus developers.

CrowdStrike made a silly error and broke their kernel extension, breaking Windows in the process. This didn't effect MacOS or Linux because those systems don't allow kernel extensions to begin with.
Linux does since anyone can roll their own kernel.
 
So who wants to bet that the way the EU responds to this is to fine Microsoft for "malicious compliance" and to force Apple to also comply? Bunch of idiots run that place.
 
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You assume the "EU" can draw that distinction on a technical and enforcement level. They probably cannot.

The EU didn't get that specific. The EU basically said you use an API to write software you have to give that access to others. So if the only way you can make MS Excel run fast on your OS is to use APIs that were undocumented, you have to document those APIs and let others use them. They didn't get into kernels, endpoint security API, etc. Just document the APIs for others if your software uses them.

The difference between Apple and MS in this area is that Apple created new API before restricting access to the kernel. Over 5 years ago Apple developed the EndpointSecurity framework as one of several types of "system extensions" so that 3rd party security vendors could accomplish their goals without writing kernel extensions. MS kept with the simpler model of using kernel extensions/drivers/etc for their own products which meant that 3rd parties could too.
 
i think it funny people refuse to acknowledge the EU or any government for that matter has no idea the complexities of technology and they really should be consulting with the technology companies to create policy and not dictating how they should operate their businesses.
do you really think the likes of Apple will listen to that?
 
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...and focus on making their operating system secure. For everyone.

Instead of business users having to rely on third parties to do it - and Microsoft competing against security software vendors with their own (payable) enterprise security products.
One good thing about gen ai is hopefully it will stop companies from trying to squeeze out every single bit of incremental revenue that can and focus on the big prize of winning at ai. Even a certain fruit company.

Windows 12 should then be a rock solid platform for ai with all the legacy stuff finally stripped away and no cheap promotions in the start menu etc.

Unfortunately that’s not likely to happen, as Microsoft has very little good taste and corporates still want to run some dot.net application that was last maintained in 2008.
 
CrowdStrike's software is extremely expensive but considered among the best in the industry. It's overkill both in terms of cost and use case for most consumers and small/medium sized businesses, and is instead used heavily by large businesses to secure mission critical systems. That's why 1% of computers had such an outsized impact.
That makes a lot of sense. It's just crazy how it caused so much distress for such a small percentage of users.
 
The real issue here is lack of testing by CrowdStrike, whose CEO was the CTO of McAfee the last time a similar thing happened:


From Microsoft risk analysis standpoint this shouldn’t even have been allowed in the first place. Having a third party company whose code you don’t have QA over being able brick your entire OS is incredibly dangerous in terms of liability and reputation.

It’s the equivalent of a food factory not having any processes in place to check ingredients of suppliers. Yes 99.9% of the time it’s fine but it just takes one unlikely accidental rat poison contamination to bring down your whole operation.
 
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The law of unintended consequences, and the unintended consequences of law.

Lots of people claiming Microsoft is making excuses, but no one has explained how what they said is incorrect: EU required Microsoft to give kernel level access to third parties. Third party software with kernel access release a bad update that crashed their systems.

Pray tell, how could Microsoft give full kernel access and prevent a third party from creating a sh*t storm? How could Microsoft have fulfilled the EU mandate and not also give companies like CrowdStrike enough rope to hang themselves?
The answer is Microsoft shouldn’t be giving kernel access period. If this was the case already, the EU wouldn’t event have a leg to stand on.
 
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The kernel developer having preferential access to the kernel itself seems perfectly reasonable to me. If it were a Defender crash, then MS would have to answer for it-- but it wasn't a Defender crash.

Kernel developers of coures have access to the kernel. However, we're not talking kernel developers but rather add-on and additional products.

So if MS can only make Excel fast on Windows by using a special API then that API has to be documented for everyone else as well.

Likewise, if MS can only make a antivirus/security suite by adding kernel drivers/extensions/etc then they have to let others do the same.


You might think so if you're particularly sensitive to opposing points of view. Even in this thread pointing to the failures of government interference, you're finding some very outspoken support for EU meddling.

Actually it's EU's meddling that might have saved Apple and gave us the competition we have today. Had MS been able to continue their "aggressive tactics" they could have squeezed Apple out of the market before they even got a chance to develop the iPhone, etc. What would Apple have looked like in the 2000s with no Microsoft Office, access to SMB shares, integration to NT domains? What if they had blocked Apple from making a proper iTunes for Windows (i.e. no seamless access to iPods and later iPhones) would those devices have taken off? If MS continued with the tight integration and bundling of IE in Windows, would other browsers have taken off? Would the net be dominated by IE-specific websites that were always glitchy when accessed from a non-MS system?
 
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The EU has no problem with security
Then why do they go sticking their nose where it doesn't belong and force these companies to open up the most crucial parts of their products' operating systems to more vulnerabilities in addition to the many threats that already exist? At the very least they seem to be ignorant to even the basics of cybersecurity, like we're talking the simplest stuff here that I learned in the first half of the first semester as a comp sci university student. If lawmakers are so ineptly dense they can't take a little time to learn about the basics of what goes into securing the most crucial components of the world economy and human communication these days, then what the hell business do they have being in those roles???
 
Microsoft are not blocking it for everyone else in the world.

They're allowing it to everyone and their kitchen sink drivers.
Even recommending it, according to gaming anti-cheat vendors (see above).
My question then is - in light of this recent event, would you be in favour of Microsoft closing off kernel-level access to their OS to everyone else but themselves, and is there any EU legislation that would specifically prevent Microsoft from doing so?

What we are seeing now is the unintended consequences of a piece of legislation that was made 2 decades ago. It's easy to cheer the immediate benefits of opening up a market like the iOS App Store (eg: so and so app is now available!). Not so easy to predict the long term ramifications of what might happen in the future.
 
Oh no. Are you back on the heroin again Microsoft? **** that's painful to see. We get it. You show up on time for CIO meetings and you look plenty put together when you do. You say everything is great. But now you're hurting people around you and blaming it on them. We know, you can "quit anytime". Heroin just gives you that extra edge and it's not an "addiction". We trusted you when you "quit" with the release of Windows 10 but ---- fool me twice shame on me. You're on your own now bud. I wish you well.
 
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My question then is - in light of this recent event, would you be in favour of Microsoft closing off kernel-level access to their OS to everyone else but themselves, and is there any EU legislation that would specifically prevent Microsoft from doing so?

What we are seeing now is the unintended consequences of a piece of legislation that was made 2 decades ago. It's easy to cheer the immediate benefits of opening up a market like the iOS App Store (eg: so and so app is now available!). Not so easy to predict the long term ramifications of what might happen in the future.
Apple hasn’t been forced to allow kernel level access in iOS or iPadOS so…..no? It’s only a thing because Microsoft allow themselves to access it
 
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Microsoft and Crowdstrike are just desperately trying to find excuses for not paying the $billions compensation for damage they caused.

9to5mac made a pertinent point at https://9to5mac.com/2024/07/22/crowdstrike-aftermath-microsoft-claims/

"Microsoft’s claim here seems dubious. Antitrust law means that it cannot give its own security software an unfair advantage over third-party apps. However, if it took the same endpoint security framework approach as Apple, and gave third-party apps the same access to the results as it does its own security apps, this would seem to be fully compliant with the law."
Yeah that’s how I read it.

At the root of it, it seems to be Microsoft being lazy and not fully modernising windows and still allowing av and anti malware programs to run at kernel level, including its own solutions (hence why it has to allow 3rd party solutions to run).

And also because corporates still want to run old code - and they pay Microsoft a lot of money for licenses - then it feels a good reason to them for things not to make significant changes to windows.

Changes which would make it far safer - but probably break a load of applications that run with ageing code.

I say - buy a Mac. And if you can’t afford a Mac and want your computer to ‘just work’ get a Chromebook (but don’t forget to read those google privacy policies).

And if you’re technical with not much cash to spare, get Linux on your laptop.
 
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Apple hasn’t been forced to allow kernel level access in iOS or iPadOS so…..no? It’s only a thing because Microsoft allow themselves to access it

And my proposal is to make it so only Microsoft has privileged access to their own kernel, making them responsible (and the only company capable of) managing the security of windows devices around the world.
 
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