Microsoft Hires Linguist to Oppose Apple's 'App Store' Trademark

[cmaier]

True, for their UI, similar to Samsung's TouchWiz name. For that matter, HTC was able to get just "Touch" for one of their phones.

A difference, I think, is that Apple does not (and probably cannot) go after anyone who simply says their device has multi-touch (lowercase), and HTC cannot go after anyone who says they make a touch phone.

They probably could. Differences in punctuation or capitalization are of little consequence linguistically - the test is whether the general public would likely be confused and believe that Apple provides or otherwise endorses these other devices.

Wouldn't App Store fall into the same usage? So people could still say they had an "app store", just not the "App Store"?? If so, then I would lean a bit more toward's Apple's side.

Nope.

 

[swagi]

Microsoft has a store for apps. See http://www.microsoft.com/windowsphone/en-us/apps/default.aspx

This store for apps is called Marketplace. Now Microsoft would like to inform people that may not know about it (for example you) that Marketplace is an app store.

But if "app store" is trademarked, Microsoft can no longer describe it as an app store even though it is exactly that - a place to buy apps.

See... this is the problem with allowing trademarks of generic terms that describe generically what the thing actually is.

We have a winner right here!

 

[cmaier]

We have a winner right here!

Why can't they call it any of the following:

An app market
A mobile applications store
An applications store
Etc.?


The reason they want to call it an "app store" is because it reminds consumers of apple and says "apple isn't the only company with one of these!"

It is not generic - it's descriptive. These are two different things.

 

[ChazUK]

The reason they want to call it an "app store" is because it reminds consumers of apple and says "apple isn't the only company with one of these!"

Going by that logic, do you think Amazon took the same route of wanting to be associated with Apple by calling theirs the "Amazon Appstore" or do you think they called it "Amazon Appstore" because it is in fact, an "app store"?

 

[DDMaKeeg]

Originally Posted by DopeyFish

What is an app store? It's a store where apps are sold...

apps, apps apps! Why must they be called app anyway? They are software programs for a mobile phone.

"Programs" have been ingrained into most peoples heads for years as describing software. How many times have you heard a switcher from Windows to Mac ask, "Where are the Programs?", "Where is the Program Manager?". You have to tell them on a Mac they are called "Applications".

90% of the population has been calling them Programs, despite claims that Microsoft has been using "apps" for 20 years. If anything Apple has been consistent with naming them Applications since Lisa.

Why do you think that mobile phone software programs have to be called 'apps' anyway? That's what Apple decided to call them. Even my old Palm, and non-smart phones always called their software as "Programs".

Apple started calling them Apps and now everyone and their momma want to claim that all software programs that run on a smartphone has to be called an App. Really you gotta see through the BS. Apple was first to market with a rich OS on a smartphone, they changed the game, now everyone is trying to ride the coattails of the iPhone.

Windows marketplace for example is an app store and it was open years before "AppStore."

Exactly! So why can't Microsoft just stay with Marketplace?

 

[kdarling]

They probably could. Differences in punctuation or capitalization are of little consequence linguistically - the test is whether the general public would likely be confused and believe that Apple provides or otherwise endorses these other devices.

Hmm. Okay, so if they own "App Store", the test is whether the public thinks that calling something an "app store" might make them think it's actually Apple's.

Does that also apply in reverse?

That is, if using "app store" could be applied in the public's mind to any software download store, wouldn't that mean such a confusing trademark should never have been granted to begin with?

For instance, I've had new, naive Android and Blackberry users ask where the "app store" icon is for that device. I mean, it's like "app store" was bound to go into general usage right away, being so generic a name.

 

[i hate phones]

Originally Posted by DopeyFish

Windows marketplace for example is an app store and it was open years before "AppStore."

Exactly! So why can't Microsoft just stay with Marketplace?

I believe they are staying with Marketplace. They just want to continue to be able to describe it as "an app store". Your "Exactly!" shows you initially saw no problem with that as long as they are not changing their name


anyway...

As much as I personally don't think app store should be trademarked... from searching http://tess2.uspto.gov/ I see that "Virtual Store" is trademarked... that's pretty generic to me as I consider anywhere you can buy stuff on the internet "a virtual store"... and probably the closest example i've seen that can compare to "App Store". I know nothing about the trademark language so i don't know if there are different types of trademarks and if these are in fact comparable in trademark terms.

 

[Bubba Satori]

Cunning linguist move on MS' part.

"Fwow him to the fwoor".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPGb4STRfKw

 

[cmaier]

Going by that logic, do you think Amazon took the same route of wanting to be associated with Apple by calling theirs the "Amazon Appstore" or do you think they called it "Amazon Appstore" because it is in fact, an "app store"?

I think that they are trying to leverage off the Apple connection, yes. By calling it the same thing, it's clear that it's analogous.

Hmm. Okay, so if they own "App Store", the test is whether the public thinks that calling something an "app store" might make them think it's actually Apple's.

or licensed by Apple or some how endorsed by Apple.

Does that also apply in reverse?

That is, if using "app store" could be applied in the public's mind to any software download store, wouldn't that mean such a confusing trademark should never have been granted to begin with?

For instance, I've had new, naive Android and Blackberry users ask where the "app store" icon is for that device. I mean, it's like "app store" was bound to go into general usage right away, being so generic a name.

The issue you refer to is whether "app store" is generic (as opposed to descriptive). If the majority of the public thinks that "app store" is the name of the genus (that is, if all stores that sell downloadable [mobile?] applications are "app stores") then regardless of secondary meaning, it cannot be trademarked.

 

[Musocat]

Those jerkoffs, copying Apple again.

Everybody called them programs, until Apple decided to call them Applications.

Windows has a folder called Program Files. Apple has a folder called Applications.

Worthless ****s, trying to ride on Apple's coattails.

 

[MarcoTenshi]

Am I going crazy or is the word 'app', being short for 'application' only a word we use to describe the stuff the appstore sells BECAUSE of the appstore?

Noone referred to the things on their phone as 'apps' before appstore.

Noone referred to games as 'apps' on any platform until the appstore.

The word 'application' was in use but hardly used. We talked about software, games, programs, utilities and sometimes applications.

And I maintain that 'app' isnt a generic word or term because its neither a word nor a term. Application Store is the generic term. And the stuff about 'scientific sources' is absolute nonsense. Word usage has nothing to do with science. Like there are scientists deciding what words are...this isn't 1984.

If the majority of the public thinks that "app store" is the name of the genus

Surely the situation is different if people think that way because of the appstore (and because the appstore was the only example of that genus!).

 

[madhatter61]

I still do not see how or why Apple should be awarded App Store™.


Ah well someone had to go there I guess.

It's called big-time marketing ... and yes it does matter. MS (along with Dell and HP) is just crying because Apple is being so successful

 

[kdarling]

Everybody called them programs, until Apple decided to call them Applications.

Noone referred to the things on their phone as 'apps' before appstore.

Nonsense.

The abbreviation might be new to you, but as has been pointed out many times, millions of us have used "app" over the past couple of decades.

Many consumers didn't know what a GPS or navigation app was for a long time either. Doesn't mean that the millions who did know, wouldn't object to someone trying to belatedly trademark an abbreviation like "nav app" and stop anyone else from referring their own app that way.

 

[cmaier]

Surely the situation is different if people think that way because of the appstore (and because the appstore was the only example of that genus!).

nope. It's called "genericide" and is why companies have to police their marks to make sure people use them properly. For example, "aspirin" was a trademark of Bayer. So many people used it as the name of the genus that, in the United States, they lost the rights to the mark. The only reason people even knew the word "aspirin" was because of Bayer. Didn't matter.

 

[AidenShaw]

Those jerkoffs, copying Apple again.

Everybody called them programs, until Apple decided to call them Applications.

Windows has a folder called Program Files. Apple has a folder called Applications.

Worthless ****s, trying to ride on Apple's coattails.

How about this quote from 2005 that refers to the "Application" log in the Windows event viewer?

How to View the Application Log in Event Viewer
Topic Last Modified: 2005-05-24

In Event Viewer, both the application log and the system log contain errors, warnings, and informational events that are related to the operation of Exchange Server, the SMTP service, and other applications. To identify the cause of message flow issues, carefully review the data that is contained in the application log and system log.

Use the following procedure to view errors, warnings, and informational events in the application log.

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa996117(EXCHG.65).aspx

How about looking at the files on an XP disk - note the abbreviations "app" and "apps".

S:\>dir /s/b s:\winxp\*app*
s:\winxp\AppPatch
s:\winxp\msapps
s:\winxp\AppPatch\apphelp.sdb
s:\winxp\AppPatch\apph_sp.sdb
s:\winxp\assembly\NativeImages_v4.0.30319_32\System.Web.Applicat#
s:\winxp\assembly\NativeImages_v4.0.30319_32\System.EnterpriseSe#\8b6e9d6171aad3561263ce2cd05c57df\System.EnterpriseServices.Wrapper.dll
s:\winxp\Cursors\appstar2.ani
s:\winxp\Cursors\appstar3.ani
s:\winxp\Cursors\appstart.ani
s:\winxp\Cursors\lappstrt.cur
s:\winxp\Help\apps.chm
s:\winxp\Help\apps_sp.chm
s:\winxp\ime\chsime\applets
s:\winxp\ime\CHTIME\Applets
s:\winxp\ime\imejp\applets
s:\winxp\ime\imjp8_1\applets
s:\winxp\ime\imkr6_1\applets
s:\winxp\inf\appmig.inf
s:\winxp\inf\appmig.PNF
s:\winxp\inf\apps.inf
s:\winxp\inf\apps.PNF
s:\winxp\Microsoft.NET\assembly\GAC_MSIL\System.Web.ApplicationServices
s:\winxp\Microsoft.NET\assembly\GAC_MSIL\System.Web.ApplicationServices\v4.0_4.0.0.0__31bf3856ad364e35\System.Web.ApplicationServices.dll
s:\winxp\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\AppLaunch.exe
s:\winxp\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\applaunch.exe.config
s:\winxp\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\Microsoft.Windows.ApplicationServer.Applications.man
s:\winxp\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\System.Web.ApplicationServices.dll
s:\winxp\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\ASP.NETWebAdminFiles\AppConfig
s:\winxp\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\ASP.NETWebAdminFiles\App_Code
s:\winxp\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\ASP.NETWebAdminFiles\App_Data
s:\winxp\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\ASP.NETWebAdminFiles\App_GlobalResources
s:\winxp\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\ASP.NETWebAdminFiles\App_LocalResources
s:\winxp\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\ASP.NETWebAdminFiles\WebAdminHelp_Application.aspx
s:\winxp\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\ASP.NETWebAdminFiles\AppConfig\AppConfigHome.aspx
s:\winxp\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\ASP.NETWebAdminFiles\AppConfig\AppSetting.ascx
s:\winxp\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\ASP.NETWebAdminFiles\AppConfig\App_LocalResources
s:\winxp\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\ASP.NETWebAdminFiles\AppConfig\CreateAppSetting.aspx
s:\winxp\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\ASP.NETWebAdminFiles\AppConfig\EditAppSetting.aspx
s:\winxp\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\ASP.NETWebAdminFiles\AppConfig\ManageAppSettings.aspx
s:\winxp\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\ASP.NETWebAdminFiles\AppConfig\App_LocalResources\AppConfigHome.aspx.resx
s:\winxp\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\ASP.NETWebAdminFiles\AppConfig\App_LocalResources\AppSetting.ascx.resx
s:\winxp\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\ASP.NETWebAdminFiles\AppConfig\App_LocalResources\CreateAppSetting.aspx.resx
s:\winxp\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\ASP.NETWebAdminFiles\AppConfig\App_LocalResources\EditAppSetting.aspx.resx
s:\winxp\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\ASP.NETWebAdminFiles\AppConfig\App_LocalResources\ManageAppSettings.aspx.resx
s:\winxp\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\ASP.NETWebAdminFiles\App_Code\ApplicationConfigurationPage.cs
s:\winxp\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\ASP.NETWebAdminFiles\App_GlobalResources\AppConfigCommon.resx
s:\winxp\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\ASP.NETWebAdminFiles\App_LocalResources\WebAdminHelp_Application.aspx.resx
s:\winxp\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\ASP.NETWebAdminFiles\Providers\App_LocalResources
s:\winxp\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\ASP.NETWebAdminFiles\Security\App_LocalResources
s:\winxp\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\ASP.NETWebAdminFiles\Security\Permissions\App_LocalResources
s:\winxp\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\ASP.NETWebAdminFiles\Security\Roles\App_LocalResources
s:\winxp\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\ASP.NETWebAdminFiles\Security\Users\App_LocalResources
s:\winxp\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\ASP.NETWebAdminFiles\Security\Wizard\App_LocalResources
s:\winxp\pchealth\helpctr\binaries\HCAppRes.dll
s:\winxp\system32\apphelp.dll
s:\winxp\system32\appmgmt
s:\winxp\system32\appmgmts.dll
s:\winxp\system32\appmgr.dll
s:\winxp\system32\appwiz.cpl
s:\winxp\system32\syncapp.exe
s:\winxp\system32\tsappcmp.dll
s:\winxp\system32\config\AppEvent.Evt
s:\winxp\system32\usmt\archvapp.inf
s:\winxp\system32\usmt\migapp.inf
s:\winxp\system32\wbem\unsecapp.exe

(false matches removed)​

As others have pointed out, Microsoft has been using "app" since the DOS days.

 

[cmaier]

As others have pointed out, Microsoft has been using "app" since the DOS days.

Absolutely true. But "app store" will be examined as a phrase, not as the sum of the words "app" and "store." And even if, logically, the phrase denotes "a store that sells apps," the issue of whether it is generic will be whether the public thinks that "app store" is the generic term for what you call stores that sell downloadable software (as opposed to "downloadable software store" or "application marketplace" or "on-line software seller" or whatever). (Maybe, maybe not. i tend to think not, but that's the question).

The second issue is whether it is descriptive - it sure seems to be ("app store" describes a store that sells apps), and then the question will be whether, despite the fact that it's descriptive, it has achieved sufficient secondary meaning that the public associates the term with Apple. Again, maybe, maybe not.

 

[Dbrown]

Before Apple, did anyone refer to their store that sold applications as an app store? Did they do so in public (Print or the internet)?

By that logic Toyota should be able to trademark "hybrid vehicle" since they were the first to use that term.

 

[cmaier]

By that logic Toyota should be able to trademark "hybrid vehicle" since they were the first to use that term.

Yes. If they had done so before the general public started to believe that "hybrid vehicle" was the name of the genus of cars that have two forms of locomotion, they could have done so. And the rest of the world would have had to come up with a different phrase to describe such vehicles (at least when using the phrase to sell such vehicles).

 

[Dbrown]

Yes. If they had done so before the general public started to believe that "hybrid vehicle" was the name of the genus of cars that have two forms of locomotion, they could have done so. And the rest of the world would have had to come up with a different phrase to describe such vehicles (at least when using the phrase to sell such vehicles).

But they didnt. Toyota trademarked "hybrid synergy drive" because "hybrid vehicle" is merely descriptive. Just like app store.

 

[cmaier]

But they didnt. Toyota trademarked "hybrid synergy drive" because "hybrid vehicle" is merely descriptive. Just like app store.

You can trademark a merely descriptive mark, as long as it has achieved secondary meaning.

And, so? They didn't. Doesn't mean they couldn't have. (Though probably they couldn't have - people were using the term to describe the genus prior to that, meaning it was likely generic, which is different than descriptive).

 

[Dbrown]

You can trademark a merely descriptive mark, as long as it has achieved secondary meaning.

Which "app store" hasn't.

And, so? They didn't. Doesn't mean they couldn't have. (Though probably they couldn't have - people were using the term to describe the genus prior to that, meaning it was likely generic, which is different than descriptive).

Same thing applies to "app store."

There were app stores before apples app store.

 

[cmaier]

Which "app store" hasn't.

Ok. That's your opinion. And that's what will be decided.

There were app stores before apples app store.

Not sure what you mean by that. All that is relevant is whether or not the majority of people today (not some time in the past) associate the phrase "App Store" with Apple's product or not.

 

[Dbrown]

Ok. That's your opinion. And that's what will be decided.

You have yours, I have mine.

Not sure what you mean by that. All that is relevant is whether or not the majority of people today (not some time in the past) associate the phrase "App Store" with Apple's product or not.

The majority of people dont associate app store with apple... lol

 

[cmaier]

You have yours, I have mine.




The majority of people dont associate app store with apple... lol

You don't know my opinion. And we will see what a majority of people think.

 

[gombach]

appstore iappstore iyapp yapp yapp

appstore - appstore - iappstore - iapp - iapp - iyapp yapp yapp yapp