Microsoft Modifies European 'Browser Ballot' to Eliminate Safari's Advantage

[DMann]

As a mac user, I understand your fascination with pants down and bending over but still it's a known fact that Jobs needed that 150M to continue to survive a company who has lost it all to Microsoft. A battle Jobs had to admit Microsoft had won

Microsoft Won; Apple lost. They control the PC market and the corporate market which includes the world's biggest corporations

What are you talking about? Jobs wasn't even with Apple during the time of the Windows renaissance, as he was absent during the years 1985-97.

Apple lost ground to MS, Jobs didn't.

The 150M purchase in restricted non-voting stock hardly made a difference for Apple, who accepted it as part of the GUI patent settlement.

FYI, Jobs admitted nothing of the sort, other than saying "It's not necessary that Microsoft lose in order for Apple to win."

You seem to be twisting history here to satisfy your own agenda.

 

[SnowLeopard2008]

Mozilla and Opera are jealous that Safari is kicking their ass in performance benchmarks. Opera's browser should just take some pills and die off. I'd rather Netscape still be in the browser wars than Opera's POS.

While I enjoy Firefox, I think Mozilla is worried that people will pick a faster, better, more secure browser than their slow plug-in laden browser. Either way, Apple will be getting more exposure and people will realize that Safari > Firefox > POS > Opera. Sometimes it's not the countless number of useless plug-ins but performance and security. Go Safari!

 

[Wakashizuma]

Judging by Apple's success and command of mindshare, A closed, controlled platform is the best thing to ever have happened to Apple. If managed correctly, it's golden. Apple commands the Premium segment, half the computer using population is lusting after Macs, and Apple can afford to pick and choose its target market and make a killing. In a recession. With more the cash on hand than Microsoft. And Apple's stock is moving from strength to strength. Everyone and their dog is copying Apple.

While the rest of the industry is fighting over the bottom end, Apple puts out a great product, can command a high price, and people line up to pay. Apple sets the bar. No one, but no one, can differentiate themselves successfully in this industry like Apple.

The only way one can describe Apple is "success story."



Seek help.

When you start from zero and go up, it's easy to post big percentage gains. Ofcourse when Apple started with a very small marketshare and low sales it's easy to say they have made it big. Microsoft on other hand has already reached those heights long time ago. There is not much you can do when you're at the top

As for people line to pay over 90% of world population say no to Apple on a constant basis so yeah whatever Apple has in lines must be infinitely larger for Microsoft. You can spin it however you want, but People have chosen Microsoft over Apple in the computer market long time ago and there is no going back. Apple lost the computer market battle to Microsoft

 

[Speedy2]

Absolutely ridiculous. Will cause a usability nightmare for users with poor computer skills and further problems for the customer support that follows.

What makes you think that?
I don't know any browser that is hard to install. Takes just a few clicks. And they all work out of the box in a similar manner.

Actually, the most annoying install procedure I have seen so far has been in IE8. This dialog that pops up at first start is just so annoying. They took the bad ideas from the IE7 install and inflated them even more.

Do you want to participate in some stupid survey: sure as hell no
Do you want us to set up everything so that you are directed to MS websites: Nope.
Oh sorry, you'll have to go through an irritatingly long list of questions now that a common user will never understand. (Do you want updates for the compatibility view? What do I know? Why are you asking, shouldn't you know best?) And so on ...

 

[cmaier]

As for people line to pay over 90% of world population say no to Apple on a constant basis so yeah whatever Apple has in lines must be infinitely larger for Microsoft.

Right. Because I know that at every job I have ever had, the first question the I.T. staff asks is "would you like a Mac?" Most people say no.

Not.

 

[DMann]

When you start from zero and go up, it's easy to post big percentage gains. Ofcourse when Apple started with a very small marketshare and low sales it's easy to say they have made it big. Microsoft on other hand has already reached those heights long time ago. There is not much you can do when you're at the top

As for people line to pay over 90% of world population say no to Apple on a constant basis so yeah whatever Apple has in lines must be infinitely larger for Microsoft. You can spin it however you want, but People have chosen Microsoft over Apple in the computer market long time ago and there is no going back. Apple lost the computer market battle to Microsoft

This would only be the case, if the world were to end tomorrow.

Since MS has near exclusive OEM deals with virtually all PC manufacturers, consumers do not necessarily "choose" the Windows platform, any more than employees "choose" Windows at their employers' companies, which license "Windows."

The continual surge of Mac sales are, however, representative of consumers who are aware of a choice, and actually choose Apple over competitors.

You really can't hold onto the past, although you can always try - as times are a' changing.

 

[j26]

...Europeans are idiots....

Oi! less of the insults there - it just so happens there is an existing judgment agains Microsoft for anti-competitive practice with web browsers (don't forget they destroyed Netscape). Microsoft has decided to allow several browsers of its own accord to ensure it doesn't violate the terms of the judgment. This whole storm in a teacup going on is entirely between US browser suppliers and nothing to do with Europeans.

Really, Americans, tsk

 

[Speedy2]

Blood oath it is. And you can also explain to me why I pay more for Itunes songs in the UK then the rest of europe. And why I cannot use my other players with Itunes.... though let me guess that is okay?

Have you never heard of the UK tax?
Everything American is more expensive than in the US for no good reason ...

Seriously, you can buy your online music wherever you want to. Amazon is pretty cheap and they have a decent iTunes integration if that is your favourite music player/library.

As for iTunes... actually you can sync other players with iTunes. Quite easily since it is an XML database open to anyone. Blackberry can do it. Palm was just too lazy to develop something on their own. I have no idea what other companies are doing. I guess Microsoft prefers to sync with WMP for obvious reasons.

 

[Speedy2]

Really, Americans, tsk

Paddyland ftw!

 

[MH01]

Name one cheap crap model from Sony, in ANY market. They may put out crap sometimes, but it's surely not cheap!

You can facepalm all day long, doesn't make you any right-er. Apple sells software and hardware combined so you can't just look at the money MS are making. You also have to put HP+Dell into the equation.

Apple proved that there is a LOT of money to be made in the high-end home user market. They didn't create that sector, it has been there since day 1 of human economy. Apple has never been strong in the corporate market (the iPhone being their best shot so far in my opinion, which doesn't mean that much) and they haven't shown much interest in it. Has their strategy failed because of this?

wow.... oww wow...

http://www.ebuyer.com/product/166449

Did not even look for the cheapest, they even do nasty netbooks..... please Sony have some cheap crap compared to apple.

So we have to combine hardware + software cause thats what apple sells...

Are you asking if not having a coporate strategy is a faliure? And please the iphone is not a corporate device!

 

[MH01]

Have you never heard of the UK tax?
Everything American is more expensive than in the US for no good reason ...

Seriously, you can buy your online music wherever you want to. Amazon is pretty cheap and they have a decent iTunes integration if that is your favourite music player/library.

As for iTunes... actually you can sync other players with iTunes. Quite easily since it is an XML database open to anyone. Blackberry can do it. Palm was just too lazy to develop something on their own. I have no idea what other companies are doing. I guess Microsoft prefers to sync with WMP for obvious reasons.

Focus here now, within the EU, why am I being charged more for songs in Itunes in the UK then in any other EU state? This has nothing to do at all with the US. All about the EU.

 

[Speedy2]

wow.... oww wow...

http://www.ebuyer.com/product/166449

Point taken. That IS cheap crap
Still, the general Sony product is definitely not cheap. In fact, they are the only ones who think they can sell home premium stuff at a higher price than Apple. Look at their mega-expensive netbooks and subnotebooks. A Macbook Air is a bargain compared to some of those.
Also when you buy a Sony TV or BluRay player or anything, you are usually looking at the mid-to-high-end segment.

Netbooks: they are a market segment of their own. They are cheaper than standard PCs, but the Sony netbooks are quite a bit more expensive than their Asus or Samsung counterparts.

Well, I think we can agree that Apple is one of the few companies that have ONLY premium priced products (nice alliteration..) in their corresponding market segments. B&O would spring into my mind in other markets, or the likes of Prada, Armani or Gucci ...

Are you asking if not having a coporate strategy is a faliure? And please the iphone is not a corporate device!

Yes that's what I'm asking because you made it sound as if there (and only there) were the big money to be made. The iPhone is not a corporate device, but it has a relatively high impact in small-to-medium-sized companies. In fact, about 50% of all iPhone owners I know (some) have it as a company phone.


Hmm getting a bit too offtopic now ...

 

[Speedy2]

Focus here now, within the EU, why am I being charged more for songs in Itunes in the UK then in any other EU state? This has nothing to do at all with the US. All about the EU.

I have no idea. Taxes maybe? Maybe the music labels in the UK were greedier and got a better deal? You might notice that a lot of stuff is more expensive in the UK compared to many other EU countries. Houses, food, booze, cigs.

I remeber reading some statement from Apple about it, but that was a while ago.

That's what I found after a quick look: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6520677.stm

Funny, when I do the numbers in today's exchange rates, the UK store is actually quite a bit cheaper than the Germany/France store. I guess you'll have to rethink your statement...

 

[MH01]

Point taken. That IS cheap crap
Still, the general Sony product is definitely not cheap. In fact, they are the only ones who think they can sell home premium stuff at a higher price than Apple. Look at their mega-expensive netbooks and subnotebooks. A Macbook Air is a bargain compared to some of those.
Also when you buy a Sony TV or BluRay player or anything, you are usually looking at the mid-to-high-end segment.

Netbooks: they are a market segment of their own. They are cheaper than standard PCs, but the Sony netbooks are quite a bit more expensive than their Asus or Samsung counterparts.

Well, I think we can agree that Apple is one of the few companies that have ONLY premium priced products (nice alliteration..) in their corresponding market segments. B&O would spring into my mind in other markets, or the likes of Prada, Armani or Gucci ...



Yes that's what I'm asking because you made it sound as if there (and only there) were the big money to be made. The iPhone is not a corporate device, but it has a relatively high impact in small-to-medium-sized companies. In fact, about 50% of all iPhone owners I know (some) have it as a company phone.


Hmm getting a bit too offtopic now ...

Sony are too broad to be premium, sure they make some really top notch stuff but get it so wrong in the implementation and future planning, A company that had both the Music and console markerts.... I mean how the hell do you go backwards like that? Well it proved that having great players was pointless when they could not play MP3 and u had to use thier crap software to encode ur music... it took them ages to accept MP3, fools, the markert left them behind before they joined. And the PS3.... how the hell was a kid who loves game going to afford one of those, the blueray build in was a huge mistake, only sony...

I think of Apple like Bose actually, awesome advertising, very sleek design and aimed at the high end, not that the actual products perform better then a competitor. For instance take Sennheiser, very broad, thier top offerings in headphones are way way better then any bose, but they also have lots of crap. Bose does not do crap, small offering of products and all $$$ a premium brand.

Frankly there is no place for Apple in a corporate setting, Apple knows this. My point here is that the two companies play in different segment, M$ will never pull the premium consumer $ while Apple will never pull the Corporate $.

I love my Mac at home, best computer i ever had, accept for the flickering i7 i justsent back, but at the same time my Mac Pro at work is a (@#!(#!$*%^(*@&#!!!! on a corporate network its just as ****** as the dell laptop i have. Mac just work... at home.

 

[elppa]

The 150M purchase in restricted non-voting stock hardly made a difference for Apple, who accepted it as part of the GUI patent settlement.

Quicktime actually. And Apple had the smoking gun, nailed to the wall watertight case. No fortunate contract clauses would have got Redmond out of it. And both parties knew it.

So Steve did the sensible thing and used it to nail down Office on the Mac and Microsoft avoided being dragged through the courts, again.

Wakashizuma probably doesn't even understand that Apple still had ~1 Billion cash left in the bank at the time (not quite today's ~34B, but still ok). The extra 0.15B from Microsoft would have been nice, but not essential.

 

[MH01]

I have no idea. Taxes maybe? Maybe the music labels in the UK were greedier and got a better deal? You might notice that a lot of stuff is more expensive in the UK compared to many other EU countries. Houses, food, booze, cigs.

I remeber reading some statement from Apple about it, but that was a while ago.

That's what I found after a quick look: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6520677.stm

Funny, when I do the numbers in today's exchange rates, the UK store is actually quite a bit cheaper than the Germany/France store. I guess you'll have to rethink your statement...

It is, the British paso is not doing to well. If you catch the Eurostar they have prices in Euro/pound the funny thing is that the you are better off buying in pounds cause its 1.5 euro to a pound on the price lists... and now its sitting at 1:1 almost but they have not updated the prices cause the pound is "suppose" to be stronger. In the short term yes the UK is cheaper but if the pound goes back to being worth 1.5 euro we are stooged again.

To be honest, the UK gets ripped off by all major companies.

 

[Speedy2]

My point here is that the two companies play in different segment, M$ will never pull the premium consumer $ while Apple will never pull the Corporate $.

Not sure if MS would agree with that. They had large chunks of the premium segment (at 95%+ market share, there's no way you can avoid that...) and lost most of it to Apple already in the last few years. In the computer market, they kind of accepted that loss for now since their advertising now aims at the budget-oriented customers. However, I'm pretty sure they envy Apple big time for their money-printing devices and their success at diversifying into other markets, that's why they started blatantly copying pretty much everything Apple is doing (iPod, iTunes, App Store). My bet is on an MS iPhone clone in 2010.
So the fight isn't over yet.

You could sum it up this way: MS knows how to control the masses, Apple knows how to make money.
Of course MS is making even more money right now, but that position might be crumbling.

 

[Topher15]

If Microsoft has had to do this, why hasn't Apple?
Surely it should do the same when you install Snow Leopard, in the interest of fairness that is.

Please explain it once more in the interest of public edification. It's a fair question and Microsoft should not be pigeonholed.

It's illegal in Europe to use your monopoly in one area to gain a monopoly in another, which is what Microsoft have been doing. Microsoft have a monopoly within the OS market so by including Internet Explorer with the OS they automatically gain monopoly in the browser market. Apple do not have a monopoly in the OS market so it's irrelevant that they include a browser.

 

[a cat *miaow*]

What makes you think that?
I don't know any browser that is hard to install. Takes just a few clicks. And they all work out of the box in a similar manner.

Actually, the most annoying install procedure I have seen so far has been in IE8. This dialog that pops up at first start is just so annoying. They took the bad ideas from the IE7 install and inflated them even more.

Do you want to participate in some stupid survey: sure as hell no
Do you want us to set up everything so that you are directed to MS websites: Nope.
Oh sorry, you'll have to go through an irritatingly long list of questions now that a common user will never understand. (Do you want updates for the compatibility view? What do I know? Why are you asking, shouldn't you know best?) And so on ...

Of course it's terrible for users. You weren't understanding my point. I am not talking about you and the users who will be on this forum.

Just think: is it easier for the average user who buys a computer purely for the internet... to open one application called "internet explorer" or to give them a choice of 5 browsers whch they don't know the advantages or disadvantages of each.

What is that person supposed to do? Randomly choose? Install one and do their research and then install another? Ask a friend?

Then these people have friends who randomly chose a different browser and may need help.... but hang on –*our internet looks different.

Its also easier for customer services for broadband suppliers etc. If you call a helpline for an online service provider, now there will be an additional process just to figure out what browser you have.

Not everyone in the world knows this stuff, most people just don't care, they want an application which the click and it works (annoying questions to you may be helpful to others).

Is it really fair that random Windows users will have dumped upon them Safari rather than a browser which is completely integrated with their own OS? In my opinion , no.

 

[ptsube]

I wish some of you would get over your "it's not fair" whining. Microsoft is not in business to be fair, or to make money for another company. You want fair? Why don't you sell everything you have and then split the money with the bum down on the corner that you see everyday, when you're going to work?

I work for an Ice Cream company. We have many competitors. We all compete for space in retail stores. Then the store, let's say Safeway, decides to make their own Ice Cream. Well heck, that cuts in to my space, that's not fair! Where do they get off using their shelf space to sell their product? I sell a name brand product. Better taste, better ingredients. Their product is inferior. Where do they get off making an inferior product, then they cut me out and get higher margins? That's not fair! /sarcasm

Whining about fairness isn't going to get you anywhere in life, because the best you will achieve is no more than the next person.

 

[heisetax]

I think safari is a great browser and hope this helps its visibility!

Safari seems to be working beter than before.I still use FireFox more of the time. For some reason Flock keeps getting itself set as my default browser. It works well enough that I can get to my eFiling programs help area. This program says that it only works with IE. But if Flock can do it so will Safari & FireFox.

My son uses Safari on his Macs as he believes that FireFox seems to slow his system down much more than Safari does.

My wife uses FireFox most of the time.

My one cousin has to use some one else's computer so most of the time it is a Windows unit except at my house. IE on her daughter's computer would not even let her get into her gMail account, but FireFox would.

Apple needs to keep improving Safari for Windows to keep all of those iPod TOuch/iPhone Windows Users happy with their Apple product.

 

[j26]

I wish some of you would get over your "it's not fair" whining. Microsoft is not in business to be fair, or to make money for another company. You want fair? Why don't you sell everything you have and then split the money with the bum down on the corner that you see everyday, when you're going to work?

I work for an Ice Cream company. We have many competitors. We all compete for space in retail stores. Then the store, let's say Safeway, decides to make their own Ice Cream. Well heck, that cuts in to my space, that's not fair! Where do they get off using their shelf space to sell their product? I sell a name brand product. Better taste, better ingredients. Their product is inferior. Where do they get off making an inferior product, then they cut me out and get higher margins? That's not fair! /sarcasm

Whining about fairness isn't going to get you anywhere in life, because the best you will achieve is no more than the next person.

If Safeway dominate the stocking space for ice cream to such an extent that it will drive all other ice cream companies out of business, then it is an abuse of the market, and in the long run everyone (except Safeway) suffers. It's pretty basic economics that an unregulated monopoly will lead to a less desirable outcome for consumers (less product at a higher price) and competitors (unfairly driven from the market).

 

[twoodcc]

well we all know greed has no limits, and it's not just microsoft. but at least safari is on the ballot

 

[Speedy2]

Of course it's terrible for users. You weren't understanding my point. I am not talking about you and the users who will be on this forum.

I understood your point perfectly. I have to deal with computer users, who have not the slightest idea about computer internals, too.
My point stays: Browsers are not that different from each other to be a support issue.

According to your reasoning, it would be best if every computer should run exactly the same software. I find this way of thinking highly questionable, if not dangerous on so many levels. Users WANT choice and individuality. No 2 desktops look the same.

 

[w0by]

Microsoft

Personally I think it's ridiculous that a company like Microsoft makes an operating system, and then the government butts in and tells Microsoft that they must share the wealth and put other companies software in their own software. That's just crazy.