Microsoft Prepping iPod Challengers?

[Snowy_River]

Re: Re: Re: Eventually

Originally posted by crees!
single movie can be anywhere from 4 to 9 GB's so the future harddrives will have to be huge if you want to store just a few movies...

Well, that's not taking any compression into account. Whole movies can be compressed and stored on CDs, hence VCDs. So, while a single uncompressed movie may well fill up a 5GB iPod, the same iPod could hold up to a dozen compressed movies. Now, of course, the greater the compression the poorer the image quality, but if the movie's being viewed on a small LCD, a fair amount of loss of image quality wouldn't be very noticeable.

 

[yahtzeen]

originally posted by Snowy_River
So, while a single uncompressed movie may well fill up a 5GB iPod, the same iPod could hold up to a dozen compressed movies. Now, of course, the greater the compression the poorer the image quality, but if the movie's being viewed on a small LCD, a fair amount of loss of image quality wouldn't be very noticeable.

1. why would i want 12 compressed movies on my iPod?

2. why would i want to watch it on a small LCD to compensate for loss of image quality? it seems so many people are currently complaining about the quality of music, aren't they even going to be more demanding of video quality?

Personally i take the trade-off of convenience over quality with my music, but when people are spending thousands of dollars on their home theater systems i doubt that they are going to be satisfied with any image loss.

 

[crees!]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Eventually

Originally posted by Snowy_River
Well, that's not taking any compression into account. Whole movies can be compressed and stored on CDs, hence VCDs. So, while a single uncompressed movie may well fill up a 5GB iPod, the same iPod could hold up to a dozen compressed movies. Now, of course, the greater the compression the poorer the image quality, but if the movie's being viewed on a small LCD, a fair amount of loss of image quality wouldn't be very noticeable.

Very true but if you're the picky type like me and notice all the little details then you would want full quality. I guess it's just a matter of preference.

 

[pkscout]

I love that the press says that at $400 - $700 the units will be "in line" with the iPod in terms of cost. The most expensive iPod is $500. If Apple released something that started just below the most expensive piece of equipment from the competition and ended at 50% higher than anything available they would say Apple had once again priced themselves out of the market.

 

[engelb15]

Software to decrypt a DVD has not yet proven to be legal in the eyes of the DMCA. The makers of DVDXCopy are in the middle of a suit now.

Originally posted by Spades
That doesn't apply if you have a legal decrypter, right? Such as the kind Apple needs in order for DVD Player to work. If a company such as Apple made a program to do the conversion, I think it would be legal.

Assuming the license for the decryption key doesn't prohibit making such software.

 

[iMook]

To those of you who don't see yourselves using a PVP and are consequently bashing Microsoft (or "M$" by some) for it...

Hey, wake up. The world doesn't revolve around you. Maybe some people out there might actually want things you don't like. Is that so ridiculously difficult to fathom? Seriously, people. "I don't want a PVP because I lie watching movies on big screens." ... "Those portable DVD players are utterly useless."

Oh yes, this is precisely why companies are still churning out new portable DVD players, and other companies are churning out PVPs. Portable DVD players have endured precisely because no one (meaning "not you") will ever want them. Such great logic there.

Also, to those who think CE is the end-all for Windows-based handhelds (and thus bash it to oblivion). Have you ever heard of Pocket PC 2003? Smartphone 2003? No? Google them, and actually look for things that might not put Microsoft in the bad light you want it in. Really. You'll learn a bit more if only you became more open-minded.

Cheers.

 

[Flowbee]

Originally posted by iMook
Oh yes, this is precisely why companies are still churning out new portable DVD players, and other companies are churning out PVPs. Portable DVD players have endured precisely because no one (meaning "not you") will ever want them. Such great logic there.

When was the last time you saw anyone watching a movie on a portable DVD player? Yes, you can find 3 or 4 portable dvd players at your local Best Buy, but have you ever seen anyone buying one?

A very 'niche' product...

 

[the_mole1314]

Originally posted by iMook
To those of you who don't see yourselves using a PVP and are consequently bashing Microsoft (or "M$" by some) for it...

Hey, wake up. The world doesn't revolve around you. Maybe some people out there might actually want things you don't like. Is that so ridiculously difficult to fathom? Seriously, people. "I don't want a PVP because I lie watching movies on big screens." ... "Those portable DVD players are utterly useless."

Oh yes, this is precisely why companies are still churning out new portable DVD players, and other companies are churning out PVPs. Portable DVD players have endured precisely because no one (meaning "not you") will ever want them. Such great logic there.

Also, to those who think CE is the end-all for Windows-based handhelds (and thus bash it to oblivion). Have you ever heard of Pocket PC 2003? Smartphone 2003? No? Google them, and actually look for things that might not put Microsoft in the bad light you want it in. Really. You'll learn a bit more if only you became more open-minded.

Cheers.

History shows people want passive entertainment while on the move. They want music. That's why the Walkman suceded and all those handheld TVs failed/didn't do well. The amount sold to those jogging, in their cars, walking, on busses, and waiting in line, will be none to a little. I can see the device mabey working as aids for tours and short plane flights, untill I see a market that needs this device, I won't think this thing will fly. This is a company inventing something that the market dosn't need or want.

 

[yahtzeen]

originally posted by iMook
Hey, wake up. The world doesn't revolve around you. Maybe some people out there might actually want things you don't like. Is that so ridiculously difficult to fathom? Seriously, people. "I don't want a PVP because I lie watching movies on big screens." ... "Those portable DVD players are utterly useless."

I wasn't trying to suggest nobody would want these, i'm sure there are a few people that would like one and i'm totally open to hearing some reasons why people would want them. I just don't think that there will be a huge market for these.

There doesn't seem to be a compelling reason to make a portable video player capable of holding hours and hours of video. There are endless uses for lugging a lot of music around with you, like somebody said music listening is passive. Watching video requires you to pay attention.

I'm open to ideas and would love to hear them, it's very possible I'm just missing something here.

 

[Spades]

Software to decrypt a DVD is legal if it has been licensed. Data from a DVD must be decrypted if you want to play it. Companies that make DVD playback programs license the decryption software (or the key, I'm not sure which), which makes their software legal. Technically, there is little difference between outputing to the harddrive and outputing to the screen. The only question is whether the license that makes the decryption legal prevents outputing the data to the harddrive.

Originally posted by engelb15
Software to decrypt a DVD has not yet proven to be legal in the eyes of the DMCA. The makers of DVDXCopy are in the middle of a suit now.

 

[wombat2]

I think the MS multimedia handheld device (not sure what to call it) looks interesting. Will I buy one? I dunno. It depends how clever it is at integrating with my other stuff.

If I could use it as a portable DVR, hook it to my cable box and record shows, then hook it to my dad's TV when I'm visiting to watch shows on his screen, that's pretty cool.

If I can view jpegs and AVIs on a 640x480 or better screen, instead of on my Canon digicam's 2" screen, that's pretty cool.

If I can use it to move files around between my camera, phone, PDA and laptop - IR port, CF and SD slots - that's a nice bonus.

Depending on the hard drive size, it could also be a very capable mp3 player ... though I don't see how present HD technology would let you fit lots of video and lots of mp3s on it at the same time. I also hope MS offers some kind of playlist manager instead of leaving it to the device manufacturers. Creative, in particular, is incompetent at making PC-side playlist software.

I think that device size is going to be what determines success or failure. And I don't know what the size should be - but at some size, it'll be too small to have a big enough screen or a big cheap hard drive; at another size, it'll be too big to carry in a coat pocket. The MS guy at the presentation referred to the Creative Labs device he held as "pocket-sized". Yeah, cargo pants pockets, maybe.

To think that convergence isn't going to continue progressing is to be in absolute denial of reality. As for all of the bashing - I own a P4 2.8 GHz running WinXP Pro SP1. Sitting two feet from it is a Mac G4 running OS X 10.3. I like them both, for different things. But I prefer the WinXP user interface. I use the Mac primarily as a server. This idea that everything MS does is hard to use and ugly is, I think, either an affectation, or is based on using Windows for only a few minutes at a time and feeling like a fish out of water.

 

[jeffgarden]

it's not that you'll be storing movies on the ipod-like device to watch on a small screen.

you could do that if you want to, but you'd be able to hook it up to your tv also. so you can carry around most or all of your movie collection all on a small device and not on a ton of dvd's. sorta like the idea with the ipod.

you can take your movies to other places and watch them just by plugging in to tv's. or if you're on a plane or something you can watch them directly on the device.

 

[wombat2]

I'm a little confused what differentiates that product from what's already on the market. Since I posted earlier, I have looked into this, and noticed that there are already at least two similar items:

RCA Lyra. I think the model number is 2780. $500, plays videos and mp3s, displays photos, is about the size of many PDAs (5.2 inches by 3.14 inches by .98 inches), has RCA in/out, lots of other nice features. On the down side, battery life is atrocious - about four hours, and that's for playing mp3s! Also, many features are not enabled yet, or are buggy, due to RCA rushing it out in time for Christmas. Firmware updates are gradually fixing the bugs. There are some complains about inordinant pauses between mp3 tracks, and gray pixelation in video where the picture is supposed to be black. Finally, the hard drive is only 20 GB, which seems rather slim for video + mp3s + photos. Oh, almost forgot, MAJOR plus - it has a built-in CF slot. (Psst, add SD too!)

Archos AV320 (or 320AV?). Less buggy and better battery life, but bulkier and more expensive. If you truly want a portable video player, this is currently the way to go. If you want an mp3 player that can do more, the RCA WOULD be better, if battery life was passable and the other bugs were reduced.

What does the Creative device due this summer do that these guys don't already do?

I think the concept is great. I think that the reality of good implementations won't arrive until at least late this year. For this to really work, it'll have to be PDA-sized, with an 80GB or better HD, 10 hours of mp3 playback/5 hours of video playback, with few major bugs. They'll get there eventually, but for now, this is really a niche product for aficianados and junkies. From what I read, the RCA in particular is super-cool and oozes of potential, but has enough flaws to piss you off every day to the point where you spend more time stewing over its shortcomings than actually using the device.

 

[JGowan]

Don't hold your breath

Originally posted by MacMarino I think eventually Apple will release a portable video player ... there are those people that want it.

Apple is notorious for NOT LISTENING to the "wants" of people ... even a multitude of people. Consider:

1) a (freakin') two-button mouse
2) a PDA
3) a TiVo-like device
4) a tablet computer
5) TV integration

Sorry, MacMarino. But, the louder we sometimes beg for Apple to listen, we are not heard.

 

[el gringo]

Re: Don't hold your breath

I'd like to add - a "new" cube please

Originally posted by JGowan
Apple is notorious for NOT LISTENING to the "wants" of people ... even a multitude of people. Consider:

1) a (freakin') two-button mouse
2) a PDA
3) a TiVo-like device
4) a tablet computer
5) TV integration

Sorry, MacMarino. But, the louder we sometimes beg for Apple to listen, we are not heard.

 

[dashiel]

Originally posted by iMook
Also, to those who think CE is the end-all for Windows-based handhelds (and thus bash it to oblivion). Have you ever heard of Pocket PC 2003? Smartphone 2003? No? Google them, and actually look for things that might not put Microsoft in the bad light you want it in. Really. You'll learn a bit more if only you became more open-minded.

Cheers.

sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken... sorry just re-reading fight club and i couldn't resist.

but, pocket pc 2003 is nothing more than a particular build of windows ce, remember ce is a component based OS, so building a "new" os for a "new" type of device is just a matter of selecting the right components and extending the architecture where needed. ok well it's a little bit more complex than that, but you get the idea.

that's not an indictment or endorsement of winCE or PPC2003.

 

[BurntCalc]

The iPod dominance is being challenged only because someone finally proved there is REAL money to be made. The format it plays in is quite irrelevant. MS can have it, it doesn't matter.

What I'm concerned with is the fact that once someone copies Apple correctly (and it WILL happen), and makes a GUI that at least LOOKS cooler and more functional, then what of the iPod?

To illustrate, PALM PILOT has a simple navigation. Mostly efficient. We bemoan the WinCE stuff, but man if it doesn't look a lot cooler to Joe Average.

Who wins? Well, not Palm.

iPod will face the same hurdle. It will go the way of Palm Pilot unless Apple updates it drastically for no other reason than to keep it fresh in the minds of consumers.

 

[McMike]

Re: Don't hold your breath

Originally posted by JGowan
Apple is notorious for NOT LISTENING to the "wants" of people ... even a multitude of people. Consider:

1) a (freakin') two-button mouse
2) a PDA
3) a TiVo-like device
4) a tablet computer
5) TV integration

Sorry, MacMarino. But, the louder we sometimes beg for Apple to listen, we are not heard.

I can live without two buttons on my mouse, I don't need a TiVo, I don't need a tablet and I think my PB is enough TV integrated
BUT can anybody do me a favour and give me a PDA that after syncing with iCal doesn't alert me at 6 a.m. although in iCal it's set to 8?

 

[wombat2]

To illustrate, PALM PILOT has a simple navigation. Mostly efficient. We bemoan the WinCE stuff, but man if it doesn't look a lot cooler to Joe Average.

I've owned the following PDAs in the last year:

Palm Tungsten T
Palm Tungsten C
HP iPAQ 5455
Handspring Treo 300
Handspring Treo 600

I currently use the Treo 600, which runs PalmOS 5. I love it - my all-time favorite gadget.

However, it's not because it's PalmOS. It's because of the phone/PDA/online integration, and the thumbboard.

The best pure PDA I have owned is the iPAQ. Pocket Windows is easier to use and has more features than PalmOS. It requires more CPU and memory, but PPC devices are typically sold with more CPU and memory, so that's not much of a user issue.

The iPAQ ran full-blown DOS and could actually serve as a Web/ftp server, not that you'd want it to. There is even a photo editor available.

PPC may look cooler to "Joe Average", but that's not who buys them. PPC devices tend to cost more (due to higher overall specs) and are aimed more at business users and power users. PalmOS's only serious advantage is that it's cheaper, quite frankly. Both will do what you need, but PPC is more powerful and versatile (though at a cost of demanding higher specs to run well).

I often wonder when I read this forum whether people have even used the products they are bashing, other than playing with it for two minutes in Best Buy looking for reasons to dislike it.

 

[VIREBEL661]

OK - this'll never fly to me... I mean, who wants to watch videos on a mini little screen? This DOES work for games, however (GameBoy Advance, obviously).. I just think that to make it feasible, the price point is dangerously close to a laptop - with full blown capability, etc. windows CE is an utter joke. I could be wrong, but my understanding is that it's essentially windows 3.1 repackaged for portable devices... GREAT... Also - imagine the utter pain of getting video into this thing on a pc!

 

[wombat2]

I watch videos quite often on my Canon digicam's LCD, which is 1.8" or 2".

However, the point of the device is to be able to hook it into TVs and watch the videos on the TV screen. It's meant to be a portable Tivo-like device (plus photo slideshow and mp3 features).

Pocket Windows (why do you call it Windows CE? Is that supposed to be derogative? It's an incorrect useage, not a dis) has a feel sort of like Windows 95, sort of like Windows 3.1. It's not bad. Compared with PalmOS, for example - in Pocket Windows, you can use File Explorer to view files, change their names or delete them. In PalmOS, you need to use a third-party app, FileZ, to have some of that same functionality. As for whether it's "based" on Windows 3.1, I doubt it, although it probably shares some code so that programs will run properly without the OS getting too big for a handheld. Remember that this is a pocket-sized device, and it's not going to have an interface as good as a cutting edge desktop or laptop computer. I'd praise it equally if it was similar to MacOS 7. PalmOS is acceptable but is showing its limits big-time.

As for loading videos from a PC, I think the Lyra and Archos both show up as hard drives in File Explorer, so it would be a drag and drop operation. Of course, you have to get it into mpeg format or another recognized format first, which can be a hassle if your source is not digital.

 

[whooleytoo]

Originally posted by yahtzeen
I'm open to ideas and would love to hear them, it's very possible I'm just missing something here.

- Watching movies on a bus/car/plane journey.
- Watching ANYTHING while working out at the gym (a popular use of the iPod, and soooo boring! ;D )
- Being able to record and replay video from a DV camera, without filling the camera's capacity.
- Being able to carry photos and videos of your kids with you.
- Carrying recordings of your home video blunders to laugh about with your friends.
- Carrying clips of the highlights of last nights (favourite sport) game, so you can argue down in the pub about who scored, now with video evidence!

etc...etc.. Need more reasons? I have dozens.

 

[MorganX]

Originally posted by whooleytoo
- Watching movies on a bus/car/plane journey.
- Watching ANYTHING while working out at the gym (a popular use of the iPod, and soooo boring! ;D )
- Being able to record and replay video from a DV camera, without filling the camera's capacity.
- Being able to carry photos and videos of your kids with you.
- Carrying recordings of your home video blunders to laugh about with your friends.
- Carrying clips of the highlights of last nights (favourite sport) game, so you can argue down in the pub about who scored, now with video evidence!

etc...etc.. Need more reasons? I have dozens.

Don't forget listening to audio. Portable Media Centers are also high capacity jukeboxes.

Cinemanow.com has movies formatted for portable devices at 700k now. Taking a trip, rent a movie for $3.99 and take it.

Eventually, having a portable version on a DVD will be a special feature, maybe.

As the form factors get smaller, I expect high end audio-only players to quickly fade.