Mn Pro in the Mac Studio...?

[Boil]

I have been going over the numbers for a Mn Pro Mac mini, and I will finally admit defeat...! ;^p

At this point it seems the only logical solution might be for the Mac mini to remain the domain of the base Mn SoC, and the Mn Pro SoC is added as a low-end option for the Mac Studio chassis...?

A Mac Studio with the following specs could be the new entry-level (for the Mac Studio, not overall):

• Double-binned M1 Pro SoC
• 8-core CPU (6P/2E)
• 14-core GPU
• 16GB LPDDR5 SDRAM
• 512GB NVMe SSD
• $1099

The M1 Max pricing for the Mac Studio is $900 less than an equally configured 14" M1 Max MacBook Pro, so if we configure a 14" MBP as above, the pricing is a match...

If Apple were to offer this low-end Mac studio with Gigabit Ethernet (rather than the stock 10GbE, but that $100 upgrade is available!), then the Mac Studio could have three entry tiers:

• M1 Pro @ $999
• M1 Max @ $1999
• M1 Ultra @ $3999

Thoughts...?!?

 

[Chancha]

The cooling and PSU of the Studio is already massively overkilled for the Max chip, they just threw the Max options in to suppress the entry model price and also widening the target audience for justify the volume for such a chassis design R&D and tooling.

According to rumors we may be seeing the M1 Pro / M2 Pro in minis instead. Coupled with related rumors saying the mini chassis will get redesigned as well, one would assuming the thermals can also be enabled slightly upwards to accommodate Pro chips instead just the base “Mn” chips. If in the same generation of Macs, a mini with say M2+M2 Pro options exists, then the Studio remains with M2 Max + M2 Ultra, this will become a much more streamlined line up that makes a lot more sense than now.

 

[roland.g]

The Mac Mini with M1 and most of those specs including 16GB and 512GB storage is $1,099. Why would they offer a M1 Pro in the Studio with those same specs?

 

[ashman70]

Apple obviously has to be careful with overlap in their lineup. Personally, I can't see them bumping the spec of the Mini too high so sure I can see it coming with an M2 of some sort, but nothing much beyond what the current spec is in the M1. I don't see an M1 Pro or anything better in its future, I can't see them bumping it beyond 16GB of RAM or the current two TB ports and single HDMI port. Maybe bumping HDMI to 2.1? As for the redesign, why? While the current design of the Mini is old, it works, unless they really want to attract new Mac users to the Mini which I suppose is possible with out much else in the mid range desktop offering other than the current M1 iMac, I guess it's possible.

 

[mcnallym]

One of the reasons that mini has stayed same shape is many are sold to colo companies who now have all the racks etc for the shape.

Change the size/shape and they need new Racks.

 

[Lihp8270]

Mac Mini and 13” MBP to get M2. New air to stay on M1

You heard it here first.

 

[Jorbanead]

I don’t ever see this happening because the thermal headroom is already overkill. It does allow apple plenty of room to grow which is nice, but it seems like the pro chip would just be used in a Mac mini instead.

 

[darngooddesign]

I have been going over the numbers for a Mn Pro Mac mini, and I will finally admit defeat...! ;^p

At this point it seems the only logical solution might be for the Mac mini to remain the domain of the base Mn SoC, and the Mn Pro SoC is added as a low-end option for the Mac Studio chassis...?

A Mac Studio with the following specs could be the new entry-level (for the Mac Studio, not overall):

• Double-binned M1 Pro SoC
• 8-core CPU (6P/2E)
• 14-core GPU
• 16GB LPDDR5 SDRAM
• 512GB NVMe SSD
• $1099

The M1 Max pricing for the Mac Studio is $900 less than an equally configured 14" M1 Max MacBook Pro, so if we configure a 14" MBP as above, the pricing is a match...

If Apple were to offer this low-end Mac studio with Gigabit Ethernet (rather than the stock 10GbE, but that $100 upgrade is available!), then the Mac Studio could have three entry tiers:

• M1 Pro @ $999
• M1 Max @ $1999
• M1 Ultra @ $3999

Thoughts...?!?

I don't see apple selling that 16/512GB M#-Pro Studio for less than a 16/512GB M# Mini. Considering this is the Studio, and not a Mini, I bet it is only offered with the 10/16 M#-Pro which is the base 16" MBP config.

So...
16/512GB M# Mini is $1099
16/512GB M#-Pro is $1399
32/512GB M#-Max is $1999

 

[darngooddesign]

Mac Mini and 13” MBP to get M2. New air to stay on M1

You heard it here first.

We heard that somewhere else first. ?

 

[Boil]

The M1 Max pricing for the Mac Studio is $900 less than an equally configured 14" M1 Max MacBook Pro, so if we configure a 14" MBP as above, the pricing is a match...

Im not sure why people mention MBP prices because its a completely different machine that comes with a screen and battery. Instead just use the pricing of the MBP processor, ram, and SSD upgrades.

Because the 14" MacBook Pro is the only Mac with the M1 Pro SoC, and we know the price difference between a 14" MBP & the Mac Studio with equal configurations is $900, this allows us to set a base line price for a theoretical double-binned M1 Pro entry level spec Mac Studio...

 

[darngooddesign]

Because the 14" MacBook Pro is the only Mac with the M1 Pro SoC, and we know the price difference between a 14" MBP & the Mac Studio with equal configurations is $900, this allows us to set a base line price for a theoretical double-binned M1 Pro entry level spec Mac Studio...

I meant in the sense that you can cite ram/cpu/ssd upgrade pricing without comparing the Studio to a laptop.

The 14" is the only one with the 8/14 Pro but I think Apple will only offer the 10/16 Pro in the Studio because that makes the Pro Studio $300 more than the Mini and $600 less than the Max Studio (or the 32/512 Pro studio is only $200 less than the 32/512 Max Studio). This is classic Apple pricing, but pricing a 16/512 Pro Studio at $999 which is $100 less than the much less powerful 16/512 Mini is not Apple pricing.

 

[mcnallym]

Apples pricing really has not left room for an Mx Pro.

From the MBP then we know the pricing difference for the M1 Pro 8/14 through 10/14 to 10/16 to M1 Max

So we know that to downgrade the M1 Max to M1 Pro 8/14 is 500 in total.
We also know that the 32Gb to 16Gb is 400.

We also know that the 10Gbe to 1Gbe would be 100 making a 1000 in total.

So based on that then working downwards.

M1 Pro 8/14 16Gb/512Gb with 1Gbe would be 999.

However Apple already ask 1099 for an M1 8/8 16Gb/512Gb with 1Gbe.

As there is no machine with M1 and M1 Pro then we don’t have a figure for M1 8/8 to M1 Pro 8/14 but we know it won’t be free.

M1 Pro 8/14 to 10/16 is 300, so

M1 16/512 at 1099
M1 Pro 10/16 16/512 going to be say 1499 it won’t be 1399 as is 300 from 8/14 to 10/16.

So going with a 100 for M1 to M1 Pro 8/14.

Once offer the M1 Pro then also have 32Gb option which is further 400 and if offer 10Gbe then you know have

M1 Pro 10/16 32/512 10Gbe at 1999 or the same price as M1 Max entry in the Studio.

Will need to be movement downwards on mini prices and upgrades to get an Mx Pro into the mini

 

[darngooddesign]

M1 Pro 8/14 to 10/16 is 300, so

M1 16/512 at 1099
M1 Pro 10/16 16/512 going to be say 1499 it won’t be 1399 as is 300 from 8/14 to 10/16.

I think Apple will use the 10/16 16/512GB M1-Pro from the base 16" MBP, and based on the cost of upgrading from the 16/512GB 10/16 M1-Pro to the 32/512GB 10/24 M1-Max, the 10/16 M1-Pro Mini or Studio will be $1399 which is only $300 more than the 16/512GB M1 Mini. Upgrading to 16/512GB M1-Pro to the 32/512Gb M1-Max is $600, which is the price of the base 32/512GB M1-Max Studio. So there wont be an 8/14 M1-Pro Mini/Studio because the pricing of the 16/512GB 10/16 M1-Pro Mini/Studio at $1399 fits.

Its hard to say what the processor upgrades really cost because if the 10/16 M1-Pro to 10/24 M1-Max upgrade is $200 does anyone actually think it costs $50 to go from the 8/7 M1 to the 8/8 M1?

 

[mcnallym]

I think Apple will use the 10/16 16/512GB M1-Pro from the base 16" MBP, and based on the cost of upgrading from the 16/512GB 10/16 M1-Pro to the 32/512GB 10/24 M1-Max, the 10/16 M1-Pro Mini or Studio will be $1399 which is only $300 more than the 16/512GB M1 Mini. Upgrading to 16/512GB M1-Pro to the 32/512Gb M1-Max is $600, which is the price of the base 32/512GB M1-Max Studio. So there wont be an 8/14 M1-Pro Mini/Studio because the pricing of the 16/512GB 10/16 M1-Pro Mini/Studio at $1399 fits.

Its hard to say what the processor upgrades really cost because if the M1-Pro to M1-Max upgrade is $200 does anyone actually think it costs $50 to go from the 8/7 M1 to the 8/8 M1?

From the 14 MBP then a 8/14 to 10/16 is 300 so that gives us a solid figure for the M1 Pro upgrades

Is why saying won’t get an M1 Pro Mini 10/16 at 1399 or only 300 more then the M1.
Based simply on there upgrade pricing.

You would have Apple charging the same price to upgrade from the M1 8/8 to the M1 Pro 10/16 in the mini as Apple charges for M1 Pro 8/14 to 10/16 in the MBP.

Upgrade prices are consistent amongst the different platforms where available.

512Gb SSD to 1TB SSD is 200 wether in a Mini, MBP, iMac and Air or Studio
32Gb to 64 is 400 wether in MBP or Studio
8Gb to 16Gb is 200 wether in Air Mini or iMac

So is not unreasonable to suggest that with the MBP 14 having 300 for 8/14 to 10/16 that not going to get M1 8/8 to M1 Pro 10/16 for 300.

Also that the 16 to 32 ram upgrade is also going to be 400.
1Gbe to 10Gbe at 100

What we cannot know is M1 8/8 to M1 Pro 8/14 as so far no machine has M1 and M1 Pro available but cannot see Apple giving you it for free.

With the M1 8/8 16/512 at 1099 then is going to be more then 300 to get from M1 8/8 to M1 Pro 10/16 as we already have from the MBP 14 that Apple wants 300 to get from M1 Pro 8/14 to Pro 10/16 and upgrade pricing is consistent across the various models.

If you work DOWN from a Studio then using the consistent pricing from other Apple Silicon models you get

Max 10/14 to a Pro 10/16 is - 200
32 to 16 is - 400
10Gbe to 1Gbe is - 100

So working down a 10/16 16/512 M1 Pro Mini would be 1299

This is only 200 more then a 8/8 16/512 M1 is at 1099

However if work up from a M1 Mini using the consistent pricing from other models

M1 to Pro 8/14 - unknown
Pro 8/14 to 10/16 + 300

So working up from an M1 8/8 16/512 then is going to be more then 1399 as we know from upgrades will be more then 300 as that 300 doesn’t cover the the M1 to Pro 8/14.

Upgrade options

16 - 32Gb +400
10Gbe to 1Gbe + 100

So IF take only 100 as what Apple would charge for M1 8/8 to M1 Pro 8/14 then would have a M1 Pro 10/16 at 1499 or 200 more then working down from a Studio.

Upgrade options

16 - 32 memory + 400
1Gbe to 10Gbe + 100

Now have an M1 Pro Mini 10/16 32/512 with 10Gbe at 1999 or same price as the base Studio.

Maths are

1099 for 8/8 16/512 1Gbe actual model available so price is definitely known.
1199 for Pro 8/14 16/512 1Gbe based on a 100 estimate as won’t be free.
1499 for Pro 10/16 16/512 1 Gbe is a known 300 upgrade from MBP.
1899 for Pro 10/16 32/512 1Gbe is a known 400 upgrade from MBP.
1999 for Pro 10/16 32/513 10Gbe is a known 100 from Mini

As looking at a mini still then working up from a Mini is more realistic then working down from a Studio.

This is basing on a 100 upgrade for M1 8/8 to Pro 8/14 which Apple is not going to give you for free.

People saying want the 32Gb Memory option in the forums as need more then 16 but don’t need the Studio extra CPU/GPU so would be offered. Enough people must want the 10Gbe option for it to be offered on the mini already.

This is why saying that between the M1 mini pricing and base studio there simply isn’t a space for an M1 Pro Mini in the pricing structure.

Apple would have to lower the mini starting price/upgrade prices that charge to make a price slot where would make the M1 Pro Mini lower by 200 then a similar Studio.

Not defending apples prices simply going with what they are currently.

I personally was looking for a M1 Pro 10/16 32/512 Mini to replace my hackintosh which basically an iMac 2019 with i9 9900k 32/1TB and RX580 GPU. With Monterey/open core and possible NVME Samsung 970 evo issue with slowdown then want to get off the Hackintosh route as now more effort then worth personally.

Doing the maths then ordered a base Studio as working up from a mini then at the studio price but with the better SoC.

 

[darngooddesign]

I agree that your prices follow Apple's examples, I just disagree with this computer starting with the 8/14 M#-Pro.

Whether its in the form of a Mini or a Studio I think there will only be a 10/16 M#-Pro computer between the M# Mini and the M#-Max Studio. The 8/14 M#-Pro will remain only in the 14" MBP so working the upgrade costs back down from the current base Studio places this 10/16 M#-Pro computer at $1399

But good discussion regardless.

 

[mcnallym]

The problem with working backwards from the studio which would be

Max 10/24 to Pro 10/16 -200
32Gb to 16Gb - 400
10Gbe to 1Gbe - 100
Total -700

1999 - 700 = 1299

M1 Pro 10/16 16Gb/512Gb SSD and 1Gbe Ethernet at 1299

These are known prices from the MBP as to what Apple charges for those differences and particularly went out of my way to show that Apple is consistent in upgrades across the various Mac as to why would use these figures.

The problem you have here is that the M1 SoC mini

M1 8/8 16Gb/512Gb SSD 1Gbe at 1099 is now only 200 less.

So at that point you are asking Apple to do M1 8/8 to M1 Pro 10/16 for 200 when Apple charges 300 in the MBP for M1 Pro 8/14 to 10/16, let alone what Apple want to charge for the M1 8/8 to M1 Pro.

When on the Apple Store if use the mini chassis you would be putting the M1 Pro SoC in as a BTO or simply as a higher build to a mini so the Mini with it is kind of ruled out here as point Apple creates a problem in that why charges only 200 for a SoC upgrade in the mini when charges 300 for a smaller SoC upgrade in the MBP and is right there in the store.

The Studio chassis is overkill for a Pro SoC but would avoid however the upgrade cost at that point really targeting the budget buyers which Apple don’t seem interested in.
However at that point if I was in the market for the mini I would be thinking that overpriced if could get a studio with Pro 10/16 poor only 200 more when Apple want over 300 for the Pro 8/14 to Pro 10/16.

By making the gap further apart not offering the Pro in Desktop then not many people saying the Mini overpriced. If fact only threads I see say Studio is good bargain. Though was one dissenters asking if Studio was value or simply the Mini overpriced.

 

[darngooddesign]

The 1399 Pro gets the faster Ethernet because Ethernet speed isn’t a choice in the Studio; however, if there is a Pro Mini then it could be as you said $1299 with the slower internet.

 

[darngooddesign]

So at that point you are asking Apple to do M1 8/8 to M1 Pro 10/16 for 200 when Apple charges 300 in the MBP for M1 Pro 8/14 to 10/16, let alone what Apple want to charge for the M1 8/8 to M1 Pro.

You're the only one mentioning the 8/14. I'm saying they should do the 10/16 Pro for 600 less than the 10/24 Max, which is how much those upgrades cost.

There will be no 8/14 Pro because it would be only $100 more than the 8/8 mini. That price makes no sense since Apple charges $50 to go from the 8/7 to 8/8 M1.

 

[EugW]

Personally I think that if they do use Mn Pro in a headless desktop, and I'm 85% sure they will, I think they will put it in the Mac mini. That gives us two general categories for each machine:

Mac mini low - Mn
Mac mini high - Mn Pro

Mac Studio low - Mn Max
Mac Studio high - Mn Ultra

Why? Keep all the Studios priced high with minimum 32 GB, whereas in the Mac mini the Mn Pro can be configured with 16 GB.

Sure you'd get the option to up spec the Mn Pro to 32 GB, but that brings it close enough in price to the Mac Studio that the latter becomes very attractive, and a fair number people would be upsold to the Mn Max Mac Studio. I see this happening in one of two main ways:

M1 Pro Mac mini released soon, to replace the Intel Mac mini.

OR

M2 Mac mini introduced later this year.
M2 Pro Mac mini and M2 Max Studio introduced next year.

I'd prefer it if they'd release both the M2 and M2 Pro Mac minis this year, but somehow I'm not that optimistic.

EDIT:

P.S. This would be the port situation:

Mac mini low - Mn (2 USB-C/TB, 2 USB-A = Total 4 USB ports)
Mac mini high - Mn Pro (2 USB-C/TB, 2 USB-C, 2 USB-A = Total 6 USB ports)

Mac Studio low - Mn Max (4 USB-C/TB, 2 USB-C, 2 USB-A = Total 8 USB ports)
Mac Studio high - Mn Ultra (6 USB-C/TB, 2 USB-A = Total 8 USB ports)

 

[sublunar]

@mcnallym has already done a great job estimating the price downwards from a Mac Studio. I have separately already argued the point by upgrading the spec and price of an M1 Mini. My conclusion is the same - there isn’t enough of a price gap to justify a Mac Mini with M1 Pro.

Let’s start with $899 for 8/512.

A 16Gb/512 M1 Mini costs $1099
A mythical upgrade to 32Gb/512Gb M1 Mini Costs $400 giving us a price of $1499.

These are known Apple upgrade prices in other lines by the way.

At this point, you add $100 to get 10 Gigabit Ethernet (ok, not everyone needs that), but you also need a CPU upgrade.

Even if it was a reasonable (for Apple) $200 to go from M1 8/8 to M1 Pro 10/14 you’re at $1799 if you snapped up the 10Gig Ethernet too. Let’s imagine that the upgrade includes bumping up the number of Thunderbolt ports to 3 which I think is reasonable because the M1 Max has 4.

Upgrading the 10/14 M1 Pro in the base MacBook Pro 14 to the 10/24 M1 Max which is also in the Studio costs $500 alone, and at that point you may as well buy the Studio if you need more grunt.

The conclusion has to be that Apple decided that the Mac Studio would be a good thing to launch and they set the price accordingly. The launch of the Studio has probably signalled the death knell for the M1 Pro Mini in even in its current form (the PSU might be able to power it) and that’s why we could see a compact redesign for the Mini which might just be designed for the M1/M2 series.

The M1 Pro would therefore be for iMac 24 (in the future, largely because the PSU can cope with it) or MacBook Pro 14 in my opinion.

 

[sublunar]

Personally I think that if they do use Mn Pro in a headless desktop, and I'm 85% sure they will, I think they will put it in the Mac mini. That gives us two general categories for each machine:

Mac mini low - Mn
Mac mini high - Mn Pro

Mac Studio low - Mn Max
Mac Studio high - Mn Ultra

Why? Keep all the Studios priced high with minimum 32 GB, whereas in the Mac mini the Mn Pro can be configured with 16 GB.

Sure you'd get the option to up spec the Mn Pro to 32 GB, but that brings it close enough in price to the Mac Studio that the latter becomes very attractive, and a fair number people would be upsold to the Mn Max Mac Studio. I see this happening in one of two main ways:

M1 Pro Mac mini released soon, to replace the Intel Mac mini.

OR

M2 Mac mini introduced later this year.
M2 Pro Mac mini and M2 Max Studio introduced next year.

I'd prefer it if they'd release both the M2 and M2 Pro Mac minis this year, but somehow I'm not that optimistic.

EDIT:

P.S. This would be the port situation:

Mac mini low - Mn (2 USB-C/TB, 2 USB-A = Total 4 USB ports)
Mac mini high - Mn Pro (2 USB-C/TB, 2 USB-C, 2 USB-A = Total 6 USB ports)

Mac Studio low - Mn Max (4 USB-C/TB, 2 USB-C, 2 USB-A = Total 8 USB ports)
Mac Studio high - Mn Ultra (6 USB-C/TB, 2 USB-A = Total 8 USB ports)

If the M1 Pro Mini was to come as a 16Gb/512Gb standard (to mirror the base MacBook Pro 14), price wise we are looking potentially at $1299 for such a basic spec (valuing the upgrade price from M1 to M1 Pro 10/14 at $200). This is obviously higher than the upper Intel SKU that is still lingering.

I don’t think Apple could offer an 8Gb variant due to the way the SoC is set up.

If they used the existing case the bonus is that the PSU could probably handle it but M1 Max would be out of the question on power consumption grounds and that’s before you notice that the uplift from 16/512 M1 Pro to 32/512 M1 Max is $900 making the modest mini potentially MORE expensive than buying the Mac Studio in the first place.

But let’s bear in mind now that the M1 probably beats even the i7-8700B CPU that‘s available in the 2018 Intel mini on synthetic benchmarks like Geekbench. The M2 would be even better.

Is there any need to give the Mini the M1 Pro? Especially when those CPUs might be better off in more profitable machines due to supply chain issues?

 

[EugW]

If the M1 Pro Mini was to come as a 16Gb/512Gb standard (to mirror the base MacBook Pro 14), price wise we are looking potentially at $1299 for such a basic spec (valuing the upgrade price from M1 to M1 Pro 10/14 at $200). This is obviously higher than the upper Intel SKU that is still lingering.

I don’t think Apple could offer an 8Gb variant due to the way the SoC is set up.

If they used the existing case the bonus is that the PSU could probably handle it but M1 Max would be out of the question on power consumption grounds and that’s before you notice that the uplift from 16/512 M1 Pro to 32/512 M1 Max is $900 making the modest mini potentially MORE expensive than buying the Mac Studio in the first place.

But let’s bear in mind now that the M1 probably beats even the i7-8700B CPU that‘s available in the 2018 Intel mini on synthetic benchmarks like Geekbench. The M2 would be even better.

Is there any need to give the Mini the M1 Pro? Especially when those CPUs might be better off in more profitable machines due to supply chain issues?

I think they need a Mac mini with more ports, and my scenario here is that they'd do that by going with Mn Pro. That would also give them the ability to go beyond the 16 GB limitation of two-chip LPDDR4X. I think two-chip LPDDR4X technically can support up to 32 GB, but this does not appear to be a true real world possibility in the volumes Apple would need, at a reasonable cost.

Judging by various information out there, I'm not optimistic that Apple will go with a 32 GB M2 Mac mini option either. With the entry level M2, they'd stick with LPDDR4X, but you can go higher if you pay more for Mn Pro.

The big problem though is whether or not they can keep up with Mn Pro demand. The MacBook Pros will always have priority for these chips. The gap seems clearly big enough to support a Mn Pro Mac mini, but there are other factors that might prevent its release, particularly component and chip supply constraints.