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Apple has been inadequately responsive to security bugs. Here's a report from Secunia showing that Apple has 10% unpatched security advisories. Many of these bugs are in the Mach kernel--and the source code is available, so for-profit hackers certainly have the opportunity to skim through the code and find these bugs.
Secunia also states that 17% of reported Windows vulnerabilities are unpatched, including one reported in March 2005 that is listed as "highly critical" and allows complete system access from a remote site. Compare this to the 9 listed unpatched OS X vulnerabilities, most of which are moderately critical or uncritical, and allow for the most part Denial of Services at worst.
 
I just read this over at Maccentral.

"This latest Apple project is being launched to raise awareness of security vulnerabilities in Apple’s products and to “stomp smugness,” Finisterre said via e-mail."

That comment is one of the things that makes me feel that this is not really about finding security problems, but that it is about something else. I suspect an ego-political problem.

I feel that Apple has done an excellent job with security, certainly better than the "second tuesday of every month is patch tuesday" routine in the windows world.

I think everyone agrees and understands that no operating system is perfect or totally secure. With that in mind, what point are these individuals trying to make?:confused:
 
Reporting them to Apple immediately on discovery would make us all safer. Waiting weeks or months to release them, and then releasing them to the public before releasing them to Apple (and in a month-long publicity stunt to boot) puts us all at increased risk. How long has this hacker been sitting on this information? Months? That's given potential crackers months to work on exploits, and Apple can't start working on fixes until the bugs are reported. Make no mistake, the way this is being done, it's not for the benefit of Apple or Mac users.

I think that's what bothers me most... This is a publicity stunt more than anything and there's a good bet that this guy (and his cronies) has been working on identifying these security holes for several months, if not a year or more. They claim they're going to have a new bug to report each day... How do they know that? ...Unless they already have 30+ things to report, which is very likely. Simply holding the information to release publicly with a bunch of "d00d, L00k @ m3!" hacker fan-fare rather than disclosing it to Apple upon discovery says a lot about this guy.

I'm all for releasing the findings publicly, but it should be done with responsibility. To better increase everyones' security, it should be done after Apple has a chance to review the findings and start working on any necessary fixes. ...I know this isn't going to happen, just as with Windows. Too many ****** "security experts" out there doing more harm than good. Mostly their purpose is self-serving, even though they claim they're helping the community.
 
I'm not sure why people think that OS X has fewer security problems per line of code than Windows does.

First, let's be clear: OS X is likely to be more secure for the end-user than Windows XP. OS X does not typically run as a 'root' user so users are typically protected.

However, that merely makes the task more difficult for a hacker. There are a number of privilege escalation bugs that, once on a local machine, makes OS X as insecure as Windows.

OS X is less-exploited because it's not as profitable to exploit, nor as effective to write worms for. The low installed base of OS X machines means that hackers won't be able to make as much money off popup ads or spambots as they would if they hacked Windows. Furthermore, worms that spread themselves through randomly scanning IP addresses will not reach a critical mass because there aren't enough OS X machines to reach. Finally, many hackers work from Eastern European and East Asian countries where Macs are priced far more highly than PCs. Thus, they do not have access to those machines.

Finally, there certainly are fewer people looking for hacks in OS X than in Windows. 97% of computers do not use OS X. Thus, in order for there to be an equal number, the 3% of OS X users would have to have a 30 times greater percentage of hackers than those working on other operating systems.

All of these factors together are what protect Mac users from viruses. Aside from privilege separation, there's nothing inherently secure about OS X or Apple's development methods.

The security bugs in OS X are patched frequently. Us OS X users patch our systems as often as Windows users patch theirs. While Microsoft has 'patch Tuesday,' Apple has 'patch randomly' which seems to be as often as Microsoft. This security update was '2006-008,' meaning that it's the 8th security update of the year. Combined with 5 point releases of OS X this year (10.4.4 - 10.4.8), that's 13 updates--or, one more than the number of 'Patch Tuesdays' this year.

That's just OS X security updates, too. An Apple list of security updates shows over 20 updates this year.

Yet despite the number of updates Apple does, they're still finding relatively disturbing bugs in OS X. Safari in particular is a scary program--it has several times contained bugs that are triggered by nothing more than visiting an image or disk image file that has been designed to crash and execute code. (Early versions of Safari had bugs that could run shell scripts right from specially-designed URLs, too). These bugs are ones that Microsoft and Mozilla fixed in their browsers years ago, yet Apple does not seem to have learned their lesson.

Compare Secunia's 2006 statistics for Windows XP and OS X. Apple has 38% unpatched advisories, and 13% of all bugs are extremely critical. On the other hand, Microsoft has 10% unpatched, and only 7% of all bugs are extremely critical.

We should not be defending Apple here. We should be pushing them to do better. I'm constantly amazed at how people defend Apple when they're making mistakes. If I wanted second-best, I'd be using Windows. Sadly, I think security is one area where Microsoft will ultimately put Apple to shame.

IE 7 in Vista is by far a more secure browser than any other. Its privilege separation should more-or-less eliminate serious spyware. OS X has nothing like this right now, and unless Apple steps up and adds it to Leopard (and thus far no one has seen evidence of this in the beta), Microsoft will be ahead in a critical area.
 
Finally, there certainly are fewer people looking for hacks in OS X than in Windows. 97% of computers do not use OS X. Thus, in order for there to be an equal number, the 3% of OS X users would have to have a 30 times greater percentage of hackers than those working on other operating systems.
The fact is, OS X does not even have 0.001% of the viruses in the wild. The one published "virus" was not self-replicating and required users to take specific actions to have its effect (even I can write a script that will erase your HD if you enter your admin password and run the script).
Compare Secunia's 2006 statistics for Windows XP and OS X. Apple has 38% unpatched advisories, and 13% of all bugs are extremely critical. On the other hand, Microsoft has 10% unpatched, and only 7% of all bugs are extremely critical.
Sorry, but I call FUD here. Your own links contradict you. They show that 17% of reported Windows vulnerabilities are unpatched, compared to 10% of reported OS X vulnerabilities. And they show that the highest severity of OS X bug that was unpatched was "moderately critical", compared with a maximim severity of "severely critical" for Windows.
 
I agree that releasing information - even the existence of bugs and security concerns, without giving the vendor a chance to address them is irresponsible at best, and aiding and abetting at worst.
 
Based on what evidence? It seems that hackers looking for bugs in OS X have been media darlings of late. Finding a vulnerability of OS X seems to be the best way to get publicity and make a name for yourself.

Being a media darling doesn't necessarily bring much money if any at all. Having an unpatched exploitable security hole can fetch a lot of money. There is not much money in hacking OS X, but there is plenty of money hacking Windows.
 
The fact is, OS X does not even have 0.001% of the viruses in the wild. The one published "virus" was not self-replicating and required users to take specific actions to have its effect (even I can write a script that will erase your HD if you enter your admin password and run the script).

I've never argued that OS X has more "in the wild" bugs--in fact, I've argued that it has fewer because people aren't interested in writing them for OSX. I'm pointing out that if people were interested, there are plenty of bugs in the OS to exploit.

Sorry, but I call FUD here. Your own links contradict you. They show that 17% of reported Windows vulnerabilities are unpatched, compared to 10% of reported OS X vulnerabilities. And they show that the highest severity of OS X bug that was unpatched was "moderately critical", compared with a maximim severity of "severely critical" for Windows.
I call didn't read my links. Your numbers are for all time. Mine are for 2006. Scroll down the links and look at the graphs. You'll find the numbers I cited. If you're still not convinced, I'll paste the images in tomorrow.

The fact is the quality of Apple's coding is at least as bad as Microsoft. OS X's security advantage is due to privilege separation and low market share. Apple needs to improve the quality of their code before a hacker with a grudge against them writes a super-bug that exploits these unpatched bugs. (I admit that the chances of this are low since hackers couldn't make money from OSX users.)
 
I've never argued that OS X has more "in the wild" bugs--in fact, I've argued that it has fewer because people aren't interested in writing them for OSX. I'm pointing out that if people were interested, there are plenty of bugs in the OS to exploit.


I call didn't read my links. Your numbers are for all time. Mine are for 2006. Scroll down the links and look at the graphs. You'll find the numbers I cited. If you're still not convinced, I'll paste the images in tomorrow.

The fact is the quality of Apple's coding is at least as bad as Microsoft. OS X's security advantage is due to privilege separation and low market share. Apple needs to improve the quality of their code before a hacker with a grudge against them writes a super-bug that exploits these unpatched bugs. (I admit that the chances of this are low since hackers couldn't make money from OSX users.)
I'm quoting the number of current unpatched bugs in Mac OS X (9 out of a total of 87 reported, or 10%), versus the number of current unpatched bugs in Windows (17%). What percentage of those were reported in 2006 is largely irrelevant, except to say that a larger number of the unpatched Windows bugs were reported before 2006, meaning that MS has taken even longer than Apple to patch them. And none of the currently unpatched Mas OS X bugs exceed moderate severity, by Secunia's rating system. The pie charts you are referring to report data from 2006, including data on bugs that have already been patched.

Anyway, it's not surprising that fewer new Windows bugs were reported in 2006, because prior to Vista, it has not been significantly updated in years, so most of the existing bugs had already been found. That doesn't change the fact that there are more unpatched bugs in Windows than in OS X, or the fact that there remains a higher percentage of unpatched bugs in Windows than in OS X, or the fact that some of the unpatched bugs in Windows are more critical than any of the unpatched bugs in OS X, regardless of whether the bugs were reported in 2006 or in prior years. Just because an unpatched bug was reported in 2004 and not 2006 does not mean that it is unpatched.

BTW, the main reason why such a high percentage of OS X bugs reported in 2006 remain unpatched is that this same nameless hacker just reported a large number of them several weeks ago in the "Month of Kernel Bugs". If he were to get a copy of Vista and find 10 bugs in it, then publish the info before reporting it to Microsoft, then 100% of the bugs reported for Vista would be unpatched. So that statistic is really meaningless, and the one you should use is the current total number of reported and patched bugs, not the percentage of those that occurred in 2006.

Finally, by his MO alone, and statements he has made, the person behind this month of bugs is a hacker with a grudge.
 
Good form, Apple.

-Analog Kid

As I read between the lines on that quote, it occurs to me that Apple's saying something else as well to the hackers.

Something like: "Go ahead and test us - as long as you do it constructively. Let us know that you find in good faith."

I get that from the words "welcome Feedback". If these Hackers aren't giving feedback to Apple they can use - or it appears to be just a gloating, Apple will likely act against it - and IMHO, they should.
 
Agreed.

I am still sticking by my comment (in the month of kernel bugs thread) that we need to get used to this kind of treatment from developers, crackers, hackers. I have a feeling that this kind of work will ramp up, and that more and more people will be joining this group with regards to seeking holes in OS X.

My question is, if holes are found, how much is that information worth to people who want to take advantage of it? And also, if it is a moderate to high value, will this company / person take offers to share that information with people who would like to do wrong doing ?

My guess is, the information has value, and I am worried that this person / group would actually sell it to a high enough bidder, regardless of why that person / group needs that info.

If these issues are disclosed publicly, then everyone knows about the security flaw, there would be no "highest bidder". Having been around bugtraq and the like for a long while, I understand the problem with vendors not getting back with the discloser after they took the time to inform them of the bug/hole (in some cases, people told vendors repeatedly about bugs and still had not heard from them for months on end).
If two people find the same bug/exploit, and one discloses it to the public, then the information does not become as profitable to the second. It also allows Apple or whoever to take steps to squashing that bug. To think that XP has more/worse bugs than OSX is just crazy. Every OS has bugs/exploits/holes/whatever. But Windows is more often used and most likely to have its exploits found. I will be very interested to see what is found in OSX throughout January; even more interested in seeing how fast Apple reacts to them.
 
To think that XP has more/worse bugs than OSX is just crazy.

-phillipjfry

According to the current facts, OS X does indeed have fewer bugs, and is far more inherently secure that Windows. This is regardless of attacks attempted.

This "Month Of Apple Bugs" is another opportunity to test/change those facts, and I for one am very interested in the results. So far every test of this ilk has only let to our current set of facts - that OS X (10.4) has fewer bugs that Windows XP. So it's not crazy to think that XP has more/worse bugs and vulnerbilities than OSX. Thinking that, is supported by the current facts.

What would be crazy would be to think that OS X is invulnerable.
 
The only way for there to be "peer review" of Mac OS X is within Apple itself, amongst it's programmers -- both staff programmers and independent contractor coders -- as Mac OS X is NOT an open-source project.

Not being a software developer myself, I can't really vouch for how bugs and security flaws are dealt with in the GNU/Linux community, but that's the only context I can think of wherein "public" (in any sense of the word) disclosure could possibly be part of true peer review, since it basically is the "public at large" who code for GNU/Linux.

I, too, would prefer to see someone who's intent is to aggressively seek bugs and security holes report them at the earliest opportunity to those responsible parties. I wouldn't really have an issue with someone spearheading a project which included a fairly large number of other people who's sole intent was to uncover bugs and holes, provided their intended and actualized practice was then to privately disclose after verification.

The more eyeballs in front of screens that you have, the better; but just releasing info for the sake of releasing it, as others here have said, productively helps nobody.
 
-phillipjfry

According to the current facts, OS X does indeed have fewer bugs, and is far more inherently secure that Windows. This is regardless of attacks attempted.

This "Month Of Apple Bugs" is another opportunity to test/change those facts, and I for one am very interested in the results. So far every test of this ilk has only let to our current set of facts - that OS X (10.4) has fewer bugs that Windows XP. So it's not crazy to think that XP has more/worse bugs and vulnerbilities than OSX. Thinking that, is supported by the current facts.

What would be crazy would be to think that OS X is invulnerable.

I think this only because OSX+kernel have not had the extensive research and "tinkering" that xp kernel+apps have had (eg. tinkering done by millions of people world round, constantly trying to find holes to exploit for good/bad reasons). Although I have no OSX experience (will change after january :D ), I know that any sort of programming on this level is bound to have bugs/holes/exploits/whatever that are not found for months, even years, on end. Windows has been out for how long? With how many dev's/crackers/etc looking for holes? And it seems like almost everyday something new is found. I am not at all bashing OSX, but I'm also not referring to it as "invulnerable". All in all, I would love to see what kind of "under the radar" bugs are found, in a hybrid kernel like this, as the years go on.

p.s. Maybe "crazy" isn't the word I should have used, but at least let OSX have a few more million eyes on it before we bring up anything that can be considered "rock hard" statistics. ;)
 
I think this only because OSX+kernel have not had the extensive research and "tinkering" that xp kernel+apps have had (eg. tinkering done by millions of people world round, constantly trying to find holes to exploit for good/bad reasons). Although I have no OSX experience (will change after january :D ), I know that any sort of programming on this level is bound to have bugs/holes/exploits/whatever that are not found for months, even years, on end. Windows has been out for how long? With how many dev's/crackers/etc looking for holes? And it seems like almost everyday something new is found. I am not at all bashing OSX, but I'm also not referring to it as "invulnerable". All in all, I would love to see what kind of "under the radar" bugs are found, in a hybrid kernel like this, as the years go on.

p.s. Maybe "crazy" isn't the word I should have used, but at least let OSX have a few more million eyes on it before we bring up anything that can be considered "rock hard" statistics. ;)

-phillipjfry

:eek: Are you sitting down? Actually, the BSD and kernel have had far longer, and millions of more eyes and fingers on it than Windows.

UNIX has its roots in the 1960's, and the BSD (Berkely Standard Distribution) is an evolution of it.

It is easily arguable that Windows XP is a kludge upon a kludge upon a kludge upon a kludge upon a kludge upon a kludge upon an OS slammed together from three sources bought for presentation to IBM. One, two, three... yeah, I think I counted that right.

The primary reason Apple threw out Classic in favor of BSD in 2000 is for the overexamined nature of the Mach Microkernal and BSD subsystems. Granted, Linus has his misgivings about Mach, but Windows is nowhere near the level - and breadth - of examination.
 
-phillipjfry

:eek: Are you sitting down? Actually, the BSD and kernel have had far longer, and millions of more eyes and fingers on it than Windows.

UNIX has its roots in the 1960's, and the BSD (Berkely Standard Distribution) is an evolution of it.

It is easily arguable that Windows XP is a kludge upon a kludge upon a kludge upon a kludge upon a kludge upon a kludge upon an OS slammed together from three sources bought for presentation to IBM. One, two, three... yeah, I think I counted that right.

The primary reason Apple threw out Classic in favor of BSD in 2000 is for the overexamined nature of the Mach Microkernal and BSD subsystems. Granted, Linus has his misgivings about Mach, but Windows is nowhere near the level - and breadth - of examination.

Understandable, completely. I misread/interpeted when I saw "hybrid kernel" figuring that in the sense, it was some part BSD, some part "other" kind of kernel. I retract my preview posts and still anticipate what will be found next month.:) Thx for putting me in my place as I am still used to the Windows/Winkernel standards of "if you thought you found it all, just wait for the next worm to flood the gates". :p (god i cant wait till i get my imac next month *cross fingers*)
 
Understandable, completely. I misread/interpeted when I saw "hybrid kernel" figuring that in the sense, it was some part BSD, some part "other" kind of kernel. I retract my preview posts and still anticipate what will be found next month.:) Thx for putting me in my place as I am still used to the Windows/Winkernel standards of "if you thought you found it all, just wait for the next worm to flood the gates". :p (god i cant wait till i get my imac next month *cross fingers*)

-phillipjfry

You're a good man. We're all still learning every day.
A friend of mine once said - testing me "What is 'Real UNIX'?"
They're all just variations and evolutions of the Unix Time Sharing System - which is no longer used. This is a handy little thing for the wetware:UNIX Timeline. Of course, it doesn't go into Kernel development or crossbreeding - but then, that graphic would be a bit big.
 
I will be very interested to see what is found in OSX throughout January

As will I.

However, this bug appears to be in Quicktime....

No OS X bugs yet. Will the "Month of Apple Bugs" be a list of issues in iTunes, iPhoto, Pages, iWeb, iMove, iDVD, iCal, Safari, Calculator, Mail etc. etc.?????
 
As will I.

However, this bug appears to be in Quicktime....

No OS X bugs yet. Will the "Month of Apple Bugs" be a list of issues in iTunes, iPhoto, Pages, iWeb, iMove, iDVD, iCal, Safari, Calculator, Mail etc. etc.?????

Since Quicktime is one of the OS X frameworks, this is a OS X bug.

Even if it were not, since it is shipped with it and everyone uses it, it is just as bad.
 
So is it also pretty funny that so far in the Month of APPLE Bugs both bugs affect Windows as well? :)

1/01 - "Both Microsoft Windows and Mac OS X versions are affected."
1/02 - "thanks to David Maynor for confirming the issue in the Microsoft Windows version)."
 
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