Most Powerful Leopard system?

[MrCheeto]

*Skip*
Guys, I'm nostalgic. I recently put my hands on a 12" PowerBook G4 and it just threw me back to that time in history where Mac Vs. PC, Steve Jobs, and "Get a Mac" were causing a whirlwind of drama and made a kid like me dream about what the future could be. (Let's just say all of my expectations were far surpassed)

It also made me nostalgic for something that nobody, Apple or otherwise, can offer. It's a philosophy that says, "It just works."

I hate to say that Apple is getting worse and worse. No more TouchID on my phone? Face ID??! "Conversion Technology"? Not to mention things are shuffling so fast that as soon as a developer fixes 3rd-Party software, Apple breaks it with another rushed daily update. Where is the MacBook?
*skip*


Years ago, I used to gawk at the Mac Pro, and Leopard is single-handedly the reason I'm a Mac user to this day. With the current prices for vintage Macs, I have the opportunity to buy a spec'd out Mac Pro for a day's wage. So this leaves me wondering: what is the most powerful Mac that can still run Leopard?

I'd like to be able to have multiple partitions or drives so I can boot to the latest compatible OS when needed, but for the most part I'd like to be able to quarantine from the BS of today and boot into Leopard and use Leopard-era software. I still have Adobe suite software, iWork, iLife, Final Cut, Quicktime 7 etc from that period. No AI Google or App Store bot can disable my software, force me to update, or say that I can't access what I need to because "Your software is out of date". Remember when you used the internet instead of the internet using you?

I guess if I REALLY REALLY score, I wouldn't mind being able to boot Tiger, but I will GLADLY leave that for a similar PowerPC build so it's not required. I do not want to settle for Snow Leopard. When I think "It Just Works" I think of Leopard and to a lesser extent Tiger.

So, to be clear, I just want something that can live like it's 2008. It doesn't even need to be able to log onto the internet! This is a quarantined "safe space" that isolates me and my workflow. Yes I will be using 10-year-old software with 10-year-old expectations. I have no fewer than 9 other Macs to handle the "ermagerd EIGHT KAY" YouTube streaming, so I think I'm gonna make it by.

Thanks fellow member berries.

 

[Amethyst1]

The early 2009 8-core "Nehalem" Mac Pro is the most powerful Mac officially capable of booting Leopard.

 

[MrCheeto]

How powerful can I go? I understand there are a dozen CPU’s that can go into a 2009 4,1 Pro. Would any model series have issues with Leopard, or would Leopard not be able to take advantage of certain models?
I have opportunities to grab a few Pro’s in bulk and mishmash parts.
So what should I look for as far as which cores to grab to support Leopard?

 

[Amethyst1]

The most powerful CPUs offered in the dual-processor model were X5570s (95W TDP each), so I don’t know if the cooling system can handle two W5590s (130W TDP each).

Leopard isn’t likely to have issues with any CPU compatible with the logic board, since the single-socket version of the W5590 (the W3580) is actually used in the single-processor 2009 Mac Pro.

 

[MrCheeto]

Wow. That’s a good scoop. I’ll be sure to consider the current draw but that really puts things into perspective. I don’t need something that can run modern software, just run the old stuff well. I doubt that would be any issue.

I’ll update on this venture as we go. Any info from anybody that has experience with things such as rolling back or running Leopard on newer systems that don’t officially support it will be appreciated.

As for PPC, I’m going Mac Mini. I don’t need PPC that much so I don’t want a giant loud MDD or a PowerMac G5 causing blackouts on the grid.

Will updating to 5,1 firmware break Leopard compatibility?

 

[Amethyst1]

Any info from anybody that has experience with things such as rolling back or running Leopard on newer systems that don’t officially support it will be appreciated.

I have booted Leopard on a Late 2010 MacBook Air; but that machine uses a Core 2 Duo "Penryn" CPU which is recognised as far back as Tiger (10.4.11), so it wasn't surprising that it worked. I had to remove the GeForce kexts, losing graphics acceleration in the process though.

My attempt to boot Leopard on a Mid 2010 iMac using a Core i5-750 "Clarkdale" CPU failed. Thus, a 2010 or 2012 Mac Pro using a "Westmere" CPU may not boot Leopard either. But the single-processor quad-core 2010 and 2012 Mac Pros use "Nehalem" CPUs which Leopard can handle. Nonetheless, it's not guaranteed that Leopard is going to boot on a 2010/2012 Mac Pro though, so a 2009 is the safest bet.

If you want a system which is, albeit unofficially, also capable of booting Tiger natively, the 2008 8-core Mac Pro is worth looking at. It uses Core 2-derived Xeons. But you'll need the stock ATI Radeon HD 2600 XT graphics card to get graphics acceleration on Tiger; the NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT (which was an optional upgrade IIRC) lacks drivers.

As for PPC, I’m going Mac Mini.

Unless you're dead set on the form factor, I'd look into a 2004/2005 15" or 17" PowerBook G4, used in clamshell mode, instead. Why? A (moderately) faster CPU (on 2005 models), but more importantly, a 2 GB RAM ceiling vs. the mini's tight 1 GB and a substantially more powerful, fully Core Image-capable GPU (ATI Mobility Radeon 9600 or 9700), which really improves things when running Leopard. As strange as it sounds, the Mac mini G4 runs unofficial OS 9 much better than it runs OS X.

 

[MrCheeto]

Ehm, curious about this.

I couldn’t use ANY PowerBook for ANY purpose without it slowly reaching nuclear fusion. Didn’t this make every model prone to solder failure? I can particularly recall a great number of GPU failures and when I was doing repairs I did one or two “penny fixes” on the iBook.

I could be open to this IF one of the models you mentioned is as rugged as a mini.

I have a Performa for Classic Mac ?

 

[Amethyst1]

I couldn’t use ANY PowerBook for ANY purpose without it slowly reaching nuclear fusion. Didn’t this make every model prone to solder failure? I can particularly recall a great number of GPU failures and when I was doing repairs I did one or two “penny fixes” on the iBook.

I'm aware of the GPU issues which plague dual-USB iBook G3s with the Mobility Radeon 7500, and those which plague 2007 and (early) 2008 MacBook Pros with the GeForce 8600M GT. To a lesser extent, 2006 MacBook Pros with the Mobility Radeon X1600 were also affected. But I'm not aware of widespread GPU issues with PowerBook G4s, and haven't seen an affected one yet IIRC.

Granted, that ain't sayin' much

 

[MrCheeto]

Well I guess you’ve got my attention. PowerBook just moved up the list.

Still going Mac Pro for the intel side, and I can’t believe the prices of X5590’s now hah. Years ago when I would only dream of that power they were what? $1,500 a piece? Try $40 for the pair nowaday, a little more to have it de-lidded.
It would be easier if somebody confirmed Leopard compatibility with a TRUE 5,1 Mac. More dual tray options and lids stay intact.

You expressed concern about 130w dual processors in the Pro. There is an article online about somebody installing dual X5590’s in a 4,1 mac with no issue. There is, however, a Macrumors post about processor compatibility which clearly says there are some 4,1 trays made before a certain date that don’t like 130w chips.

This thread sure reminds me of the days of people trying to squeeze more life out of their G3’s with aftermarket G4 card installs. How time flies.

 

[now i see it]

You might like Leopard but the next one, Snow Leopard is such a better OS and improved on Leopard in every way. Looks the same but better.
Leopard was just a warm up to Snow Leopard- the best OS they’ve ever made.
In fact I have a 2010 Mac Mini currently running El Capitan with a dedicated Snow Leopard partition install. Boots right into it perfectly- everything works great (except internet browsers of course).

 

[eyoungren]

You might like Leopard but the next one, Snow Leopard is such a better OS and improved on Leopard in every way. Looks the same but better.
Leopard was just a warm up to Snow Leopard- the best OS they’ve ever made.
In fact I have a 2010 Mac Mini currently running El Capitan with a dedicated Snow Leopard partition install. Boots right into it perfectly- everything works great (except internet browsers of course).

I have a Mini stuck on SL (highest it can go). I use it as a dropbox for scanning and it also serves as the download location for all my other Macs. Since it's got BT I also hook it into my soundbar and run Nightingale/iTunes through it so the other Macs I'm using aren't tasked with doing that. My music library is on my NAS so the SL Mini just streams it from there.

 

[Amethyst1]

You might like Leopard but the next one, Snow Leopard is such a better OS and improved on Leopard in every way. Looks the same but better.

I do not want to settle for Snow Leopard.

 

[MrCheeto]

LOL +1 and here’s why.

I was here when Leopard was a fresh release and I was watching every update and news flash when Snow Leopard dropped. I updated the moment a disk could be ordered.

And that’s where the troubles began.

Apple did with Snow Leopard what they continue today. They make small changes, break or don’t fully test features, but carry on full-steam ahead dropping even more crap on your lap. It’s a turd castle built on sand. They never STOP, fix what they have, THEN worry about new tack.

Leopard spent the longest time in development and was a focused effort to turn heads from Windows Vista which would be released around the same time. That meant they had to put their best on show. There couldn’t be a single bug or glitch because the media loves when somebody stubs their toe. It was so good of an operating system, it forced me to switch without hesitation.

I lived in that environment for well over a year. I got used to having everything work as expected, when I expect it, and where I expect it.

Snow Leopard comes along as a performance boost but started globbing Bondo onto an otherwise perfect car body.

I remember that the 10.6 update was the first time I had a “ok but it’s still better than windows” moment. That’s all it has been since. MacOS is no longer the correct choice, it’s just the better of two.

Quicktime X, no thanks. Don’t take my apps and strip them down so my grandma doesn’t have a fit when she tries to use them. I remember I was going through stacks of CD’s when trying to burn them in iTunes or Disk Utility because what worked in Leopard was broken in Snow Leopard And was widely reported. Disk Utility also had flaws that were obscure and wouldn’t be found until you needed to use it. How about the woefully fractured graphical design? Apple had two or three minds about the direction of the UI so Quicktime X didn’t look like the contemporary iMovie nor did either look like Safari. Does this app support the new QL? What about this app? All the guessing and uncertainty. Oh, this is broken in 64-bit mode so I should click to open in 32-bit. No more HFS support. The App Store? I don’t need another nanny on my system bugging me and telling me everything is out of date with the punchline “and it’s never going to be updated cuz the latest version is no longer available.” This crap is starting to sound like Windows.

I have bitter memories of 10.6 and every subsequent cat. Mavericks was a sort of return to Mac philosophy but again they pile bricks of sh** on sand for the sake of “oh, shiny! New!”

 

[eyoungren]

LOL +1 and here’s why.

I was here when Leopard was a fresh release and I was watching every update and news flash when Snow Leopard dropped. I updated the moment a disk could be ordered.

And that’s where the troubles began.

Apple did with Snow Leopard what they continue today. They make small changes, break or don’t fully test features, but carry on full-steam ahead dropping even more crap on your lap. It’s a turd castle built on sand. They never STOP, fix what they have, THEN worry about new tack.

Leopard spent the longest time in development and was a focused effort to turn heads from Windows Vista which would be released around the same time. That meant they had to put their best on show. There couldn’t be a single bug or glitch because the media loves when somebody stubs their toe. It was so good of an operating system, it forced me to switch without hesitation.

I lived in that environment for well over a year. I got used to having everything work as expected, when I expect it, and where I expect it.

Snow Leopard comes along as a performance boost but started globbing Bondo onto an otherwise perfect car body.

I remember that the 10.6 update was the first time I had a “ok but it’s still better than windows” moment. That’s all it has been since. MacOS is no longer the correct choice, it’s just the better of two.

Quicktime X, no thanks. Don’t take my apps and strip them down so my grandma doesn’t have a fit when she tries to use them. I remember I was going through stacks of CD’s when trying to burn them in iTunes or Disk Utility because what worked in Leopard was broken in Snow Leopard And was widely reported. Disk Utility also had flaws that were obscure and wouldn’t be found until you needed to use it. How about the woefully fractured graphical design? Apple had two or three minds about the direction of the UI so Quicktime X didn’t look like the contemporary iMovie nor did either look like Safari. Does this app support the new QL? What about this app? All the guessing and uncertainty. Oh, this is broken in 64-bit mode so I should click to open in 32-bit. No more HFS support. The App Store? I don’t need another nanny on my system bugging me and telling me everything is out of date with the punchline “and it’s never going to be updated cuz the latest version is no longer available.” This crap is starting to sound like Windows.

I have bitter memories of 10.6 and every subsequent cat. Mavericks was a sort of return to Mac philosophy but again they pile bricks of sh** on sand for the sake of “oh, shiny! New!”

I like Leopard and try to run it on every PowerPC system I have, but my experience with Snow Leopard was not yours. Mainly that's because my first Intel Mac came around in 2016-2017 and by that point 10.6.8 was old news.

But, as much as I praise Leopard, it also has some issues - just like any other OS. Have you (or anyone) ever wondered why the default action in moving a file or folder in later versions of Finder is for that to be COPIED first THEN deleted on the source?

Why is that? Previous versions of OS X just moved files and they deleted as soon as they were done copying. It's because early versions of Leopard have a bug. And it's one that Apple never fixed. I found this out when I was web surfing for Leopard one day. Lots of people lost files to this Apple bug.

So, rather than FIX the problem - Apple chose to alter the sequence. Everything is copied first then deleted rather than deleting as you go like with previous versions of OS X.

So your complaint about Apple with Snow Leopard didn't start with Snow Leopard. It started earlier. Others can probably cite other examples of Apple being itself even earlier.

Leopard is great. But the Apple on a pedestal that we all like to show off has never been that. By all means, continue to use it. That is your preference and right and I'm all for that. I'm just pointing out that Apple isn't what we sometimes make them out to be.

 

[MrCheeto]

I’m shocked that I never heard of this and glad to know something new. Yes every system will have bugs or less-than-ideal execution, but I find Leopard and Tiger the most pleasant escapes from the absurd and hair-pulling stress.

Something about Tiger on a PPC is just cathartic. Same with Classic on old Motorola chips. I do, and have for years, run Leopard on PPC but it’s just not the same. It’s that awkward part of a breakup where you both try to pretend you can be just friends but it doesn’t work out that way, referring to the Intel transition. I probably installed Leopard on 100 G4’s for customers and it was sort of a kludge. Tiger, however, was the perfect fit.

 

[Amethyst1]

There couldn’t be a single bug or glitch because the media loves when somebody stubs their toe.

I remember Preview exhibiting a weird graphical glitch from 10.5.0 to, "whatwasit", 10.5.2 on my MacBook. It even showed up in screenshots. So much for Leopard not having any bug or glitch

Something about Tiger on a PPC is just cathartic.

Tiger, however, was the perfect fit.

I ran Tiger on an iBook G4 and Mac mini G4 back in the day. Maximum RAM, reasonably fast (by 2.5" standards) hard drives. It was OK. But it was so much faster on my MacBook. It was unbelievable. I've yet to run Tiger on a G5, but going from a G4 to the Core Duo was like driving in a car... and then you suddenly remember to disengage the handbrake and it goes from "well, that's OK I guess" to "ZZZZZZOOOOOOMMMMMM".

 

[eyoungren]

I’m shocked that I never heard of this and glad to know something new. Yes every system will have bugs or less-than-ideal execution, but I find Leopard and Tiger the most pleasant escapes from the absurd and hair-pulling stress.

Something about Tiger on a PPC is just cathartic. Same with Classic on old Motorola chips. I do, and have for years, run Leopard on PPC but it’s just not the same. It’s that awkward part of a breakup where you both try to pretend you can be just friends but it doesn’t work out that way, referring to the Intel transition. I probably installed Leopard on 100 G4’s for customers and it was sort of a kludge. Tiger, however, was the perfect fit.

Longstanding "move files" issue has alarmed Leopard users

Update: Having tested this on both Leopard and Tiger, I now agree that the Leopard issue is more serious than the Tiger issue. Under Leopard, instead of just a file in progress disappearing, the entire source directory may be lost if a move operation is interrupted -- the only fix seems to be a...

www.engadget.com

 

[now i see it]

Yes - when Snow Leopard first came out as .0 it was really rough. Bad experience.
Even up to 10.5 it had major problems, like Adobe software wouldn’t work properly on it.

But then when it got to 10.6.8, it’s last release, it became perfection.
You can’t judge 10.6.8 (Apple’s masterpiece) against 10.6 (Apple’s turd).

To this day, I think 10.6.8 SL is still the best Mac OS ever made.

 

[eyoungren]

To this day, I think 10.6.8 SL is still the best Mac OS ever made.

After using Mojave for about a year now, it has been gaining my appreciation. With the exception of a few things it's pretty much what I want in an OS. My only concern is how much time I have left before Apple starts killing things like iCloud and iMessages and such, and when third parties start dropping support for it.

 

[MrCheeto]

My only concern is how much time I have left before Apple starts killing things

And this is why I want a completely isolated partition. I know those apps aren't going to work on old software, but the offline stuff can't be broken.

I am going to buy all the old software and nobody can do anything about it. CS4 (or 5 on Leopard? I forget), Aperture, iLife, and other old pro apps from physical install discs. If it needs to be cracked, it's going to get cracked. I will never boot into Leopard and see a "Software Update is ready to install" or a red icon on an App Store logo. Nor will anything break my software, overwrite it, or update it and leave me without a path to roll-back. If I have to use Terminal to destroy the function that checks for updates, I have my finger on the button.

Another benefit of going old-school is the lessons learned over the years. If you buy a car from the 60's, one of the few benefits is that mechanics have 50+ years of experience to offer. Somebody might say "Oh those always had bad intake gaskets, just replace it with a modern one that lasts forever" and other simple work-arounds and repairs. In the same way, I have years and years of experience and hindsight. It beats being the guinea pigs that unwittingly have their system auto-update and break Safari. I recently had an OS update on one of my Macs and Safari would not open under ANY circumstances. A patch was released I think three or so days later but what a stupid inconvenience that wouldn't happen if the GD tech industry would RELAX for one second instead of being spastic little crack heads that can't stop touching everything in my house and picking up the phone when it's not even ringing.

Having a "frozen" machine gives me the peace of mind that comes with console gaming. My N64 performs literally no different than the day I opened it. No surprises, no firmware patches, no broken features, no de-contenting. Every time I start an N64, PS1, SNES or GBA game it performs EXACTLY the same EVERY time.

I hope I'm getting across my obsession with saying F* change for the sake of change. Either make progress or don't touch my s*. New rarely means better.


OH. And I am using almost a dozen Macs, each limited to different operating systems but I do plan to get the M1 MBA as soon as the March event is over, because I expect the price of the current models to drop at that moment. I have dreamed of a fanless MBA for about 12 years now, and the performance will easily last me 10-years. I would know, as I am typing on a 2012 MBA now and the M1 MBA is the first model that has offered enough for me to move on.

Yes, I will be using the latest and greatest system, but man it just annoys me that something is always popping up, moving, thinking, changing, rearranging my crap, and complicating the interface. I can't stand how the finder defaults to the "Recently used" dumbed down view. It takes effort to revert it back to a regular function of opening in my Home folder or wherever I want. I don't know HOW anyone can figure out the Finder on the new systems. That nightmare alone keeps me going back to my safe space.

I appreciate the spit-balls here because they've made me reconsider a few things. I never thought I'd consider a PowerBook G4 again after the nightmares I ran into servicing hundreds for customers, but it is now the only PPC I'm considering for that role.

 

[Amethyst1]

I don't know HOW anyone can figure out the Finder on the new systems.

If they only know the new Finder, they have nothing to compare it to and will just get used to how it works.

I never thought I'd consider a PowerBook G4 again after the nightmares I ran into servicing hundreds for customers, but it is now the only PPC I'm considering for that role.

If your experience of servicing PowerBook G4s has told you to stay away from them, by all means listen to it. I don't want to talk you into one. I suggested one based on my positive experience with ten of them and the fact no widespread GPU issues are reported.

The Mac mini G4 is a reasonably solid little machine but is held back by its 1 GB RAM ceiling and its weak GPU that isn't even Core Image-capable. But if you're going to run Tiger rather than Leopard on it, this is less of a problem.

 

[eyoungren]

And this is why I want a completely isolated partition. I know those apps aren't going to work on old software, but the offline stuff can't be broken.

I am going to buy all the old software and nobody can do anything about it. CS4 (or 5 on Leopard? I forget), Aperture, iLife, and other old pro apps from physical install discs. If it needs to be cracked, it's going to get cracked. I will never boot into Leopard and see a "Software Update is ready to install" or a red icon on an App Store logo. Nor will anything break my software, overwrite it, or update it and leave me without a path to roll-back. If I have to use Terminal to destroy the function that checks for updates, I have my finger on the button.

Another benefit of going old-school is the lessons learned over the years. If you buy a car from the 60's, one of the few benefits is that mechanics have 50+ years of experience to offer. Somebody might say "Oh those always had bad intake gaskets, just replace it with a modern one that lasts forever" and other simple work-arounds and repairs. In the same way, I have years and years of experience and hindsight. It beats being the guinea pigs that unwittingly have their system auto-update and break Safari. I recently had an OS update on one of my Macs and Safari would not open under ANY circumstances. A patch was released I think three or so days later but what a stupid inconvenience that wouldn't happen if the GD tech industry would RELAX for one second instead of being spastic little crack heads that can't stop touching everything in my house and picking up the phone when it's not even ringing.

Having a "frozen" machine gives me the peace of mind that comes with console gaming. My N64 performs literally no different than the day I opened it. No surprises, no firmware patches, no broken features, no de-contenting. Every time I start an N64, PS1, SNES or GBA game it performs EXACTLY the same EVERY time.

I hope I'm getting across my obsession with saying F* change for the sake of change. Either make progress or don't touch my s*. New rarely means better.


OH. And I am using almost a dozen Macs, each limited to different operating systems but I do plan to get the M1 MBA as soon as the March event is over, because I expect the price of the current models to drop at that moment. I have dreamed of a fanless MBA for about 12 years now, and the performance will easily last me 10-years. I would know, as I am typing on a 2012 MBA now and the M1 MBA is the first model that has offered enough for me to move on.

Yes, I will be using the latest and greatest system, but man it just annoys me that something is always popping up, moving, thinking, changing, rearranging my crap, and complicating the interface. I can't stand how the finder defaults to the "Recently used" dumbed down view. It takes effort to revert it back to a regular function of opening in my Home folder or wherever I want. I don't know HOW anyone can figure out the Finder on the new systems. That nightmare alone keeps me going back to my safe space.

I appreciate the spit-balls here because they've made me reconsider a few things. I never thought I'd consider a PowerBook G4 again after the nightmares I ran into servicing hundreds for customers, but it is now the only PPC I'm considering for that role.

My approach is a bit different than yours. I will spare you the details as to how it developed, but essentially, you can find me 9-15 years behind the Apple leading edge.

I am typing this on a 2009 MacPro running Mojave. My youngest Mac is a Late 2009 Mini, also running Mojave. At some point Apple will decide that Mojave is to no longer support iCloud/iMessage, etc. While I don't equate that with the government trying to shove some apps I don't like on me, I've been here before. PowerPC was my sole type of Mac from 2003 to 2020. I've learned lots of workarounds. I'll learn more if I have to.

As Apple advances, I stay about this far behind. That can change, but I see my next upgrade to be in the 2013-2015 era whenever this happens. I have no plans right now to move to any of Apple's M series Macs. I will probably switch back to Windows or Linux machines in the next 20 years I think. That's dependent on Apple. I like Mac, but I am not bound to any computer company or their services.

The upshot here for me, is that all those on the leading edge are doing both the learning and the complaining for me. By the time I arrive at the point they are now, the majority of the bugs are long known and worked around or fixed. Or Apple has been forced to change. Now my work Mac is always going to be the most current. Right now it's a 2015 MBP running…High Sierra. I am told we are to expect upgrades soon, so I'll at least have some semi-current experience with the new stuff I imagine.

But it won't be my personal systems.

 

[now i see it]

I believe the Adobe software you’ll want for Leopard is CS3.
CS3 does EVERYTHING. Later versions don’t add anything significant.

 

[Amethyst1]

I believe the Adobe software you’ll want for Leopard is CS3.

CS4 also runs on Leopard, as well as on Tiger.

 

[Dronecatcher]

I believe the Adobe software you’ll want for Leopard is CS3.
CS3 does EVERYTHING. Later versions don’t add anything significant.

Photoshop CS4 adds Content Aware editing - it's highly effective and worth the upgrade...but that's about it.