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Motorola and 'low-k' Tech
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I don't know much about processors, but when you hear news of a new processor that can be used in this and that, does it necessarily mean that any processor that works can go into a computer and run it? Is it implied that the new processor can be used as a processor for PC's and laptops? Can the 7457 be strictly for wireless.........something else?
Even though the G4 (the whole motorola MPC74?? series of chips) is used in macs, It can used in any other kind of PowerPC system. It wouldn't offer wireless capabilities but a wireless router might use one. PC laptops that run PowerPC Linux could use it, windows uses the x86 instruction set so PCs (as in windows system not "personal computers" in general) wouldn't be able to use it because it's a completely different type of cpu.
I hate to rain on your parade, but while the data sheets are indeed available, I don't think the processor itself is yet. Just check the Products page and you will see that under availablility (as well as all other categories) there is no information listed on the 7457 or 7447 - just their product pages.
Overclocking
The article states very clearly that, unless I'm reading this wrong, that the current Mac's are overclocked 1 Ghz chips with low-k.
This doesn't make much sense... I don't know what to make of it. If it were indeed possible for the 1 Ghz part to be clocked at 1.42 GHz so consitently that it could be shipping in the hundred of thousands, then why not rate it as such? Too hot? Okay, that's why we have the ugly-ass enclosure that we have now...
I guess that the speed is directly related to the heat, so they can't say it's a 1.42 part if it runs hotter than XXX derees?
If this is the case, then I think it supports a lot of the conspiracy theories about the Moto G5 being dropped and Apple being left, well, screwed.
The article states very clearly that, unless I'm reading this wrong, that the current Mac's are overclocked 1 Ghz chips with low-k.
This doesn't make much sense... I don't know what to make of it. If it were indeed possible for the 1 Ghz part to be clocked at 1.42 GHz so consitently that it could be shipping in the hundred of thousands, then why not rate it as such? Too hot? Okay, that's why we have the ugly-ass enclosure that we have now...
I guess that the speed is directly related to the heat, so they can't say it's a 1.42 part if it runs hotter than XXX derees?
If this is the case, then I think it supports a lot of the conspiracy theories about the Moto G5 being dropped and Apple being left, well, screwed.
And to add fuel to the fire, the 1.2 970 runs at about 19 watts..... hmmm...
I know people have stated that this is not considered "low power" or that it doesn't have low power mode, but it's still within the realm of possibility.
lotta anger in this room, sheesh!
Someone here asked how this can be negative, and I agree with them. This is competition for one, which is good, and two, why don't we just wait and see? Motorola is a big company that I'm sure has well thought out reasons to invest their millions of dollars into. Maybe this is a bid to make their chips especially for laptops, and who knows, these chips may come out sooner than expected, or when they come out they may surprise some people with their characteristics. I say bring it on!
Someone here asked how this can be negative, and I agree with them. This is competition for one, which is good, and two, why don't we just wait and see? Motorola is a big company that I'm sure has well thought out reasons to invest their millions of dollars into. Maybe this is a bid to make their chips especially for laptops, and who knows, these chips may come out sooner than expected, or when they come out they may surprise some people with their characteristics. I say bring it on!
motorola and IBM continuing to make processors for different lines of apple machines... it doesnt make much sense to me. it is more understandable if there were another computer company using moto or ibm to compete with apple, but it doesnt look like a big enough market for motorola and ibm both to compete for the apple market. i think motorola chips will probably be limited to things like routers or microwaves (really, really fast microwaves..). but i dont know, competition is nice. in windows world, dell, ibm, and gateway depend soley on intel for desktop processors (and get big deals), while HP uses both AMD and intel, and does fine. again, two processor companies. but with ppc processors, they are not confined to computers, they have applications elsewhere. imb/moto makes a chip, apple decides if it wants to use it. kind of different.
From what I've seen on Ars, that's typical. Peak disipation is higher, and the 20 W is for that.
The other main issue with the PB and the 1.2 Ghz 970 is the System Bus.
Slapping a true 300 Mhz double pumped bus (remember folks, the 970 uses a Variable Speed Bus at 1/4 clock speed DP'ed), and it's controller in something that thin is going to take some engineering trickery because it's going to generate heat on top of that which the processor puts out. To my knowledge, no one's attempted putting a system bus anywhere near that fast yet in something with so little room to breathe that has a final destination of someone's lap instead of a climate controlled room. (IIRC, Mac and PC notes typically use 100 and 133 at 4 transfers/cycle)...
I really don't think there will be a 970 based notebook until they do a .09 die shrink. Especially if Moto can actually deliver things they've promised, like 1Ghz G4's that sip less than 10 W.
After waiting and waiting motorola now is saying they will have a g4 that can go forward? I have NO faith in Motorola or what they say. They have sat on their chips for 3 yrs and in 3yrs gone from 500 to 1 gig. Sad, i wanted to upgrade my powermac but now am thinking just get a new 970 machine. At least it seems IBM is interested in moving this chip forward into the future clocking up & up and even a 980 one day. Motorola on the other hand was content with the 500 g4 forever and still seems to be selling overclocked 1 gigers saying they are ok to be clocked up with proper cooling. 2yrs ago base powermac was 800 and now it is 1 gig. Did motorola advance or did they just overclock the 800 and call it a 1 gig?? Who the hell knows what they are doing but when it comes to cpu's i had lost all faith in motorola.
So? Current G4's in PowerBooks run in the same typical disappasion range - G4@1Ghz using either 15w(1.1v part) or 21w(1.3v part). It is speculated that Apple is using the 1.3v part due to either past engineering choices or yield issues dealing with the 1.1v part. So that puts the 970 right in the middle of the two possibilities and doing it faster and more powerfully.
The bus that you are talking about however, will only be for connecting the CPU to the north bridge. That is not that long of a wire run. Except for the RAM, the rest of the system will likely run off a slower bus (maybe 200) which isn't a significant stretch from the 167Mhz bus that the 17" PowerBook currently runs. The RAM would still be PC2700 (333 double pumped) so that isn't likely to change either. So the actual number of components that would need to change to accomidate a 970 in a current model PowerBook (i.e. 12/17") would only fairly small (Northbridge is about all).
As for the busses in current PowerBooks, the 17" uses a 167 bus and the rest use 133. The 12" & 17" both use DDR ram. I don't know much about PC notebooks, but I would expect most of them to use 133/167 Mhz main busses with quad pumped from northbridge to CPU & double pumped from RAM to northbridge.
Moto may have promised them, but they did so for Q4 this year - I think that Apple could have 970 laptops engineered well before then, especially since the 970 has already sampled while the 7457 has yet to ship, even if they don't ship them until the 90 nm 970s ship.
18 months
Many people took what Moto said about "18 months" as something referring to next year.
The quote from Moto:
"Our goal is to stay with a frequency doubling every 18 months or so, and get into the 2GHz range for PowerPC, but at very low power consumption of, say, 20W," said Dirk Wristers, director of device/integration for Motorola's MOS-13 wafer fab, according to an EE Times report. "The frequency could be higher if we were at higher power."
If they intend to double frequency every 18 months, than that means they intend to release a 2 GHz chip by July 2003! They released a 1 GHz chip in Jan, 2002. 18 months from then would bring us to...July, 2003.
They also said that the frequency could be HIGHER if they used a higher power. This is definately good news for mac users regardless of what some think. If we can have PPC 970 in Power Macs (and hopefully PowerBooks), and PPC 7457's in everything else- ALL approching or hitting the 2 GHz mark, we'll be doing really good in the performace arena (especially if Intel doesn't pull a 5 GHz P4 out of their A$$).
Many people took what Moto said about "18 months" as something referring to next year.
The quote from Moto:
"Our goal is to stay with a frequency doubling every 18 months or so, and get into the 2GHz range for PowerPC, but at very low power consumption of, say, 20W," said Dirk Wristers, director of device/integration for Motorola's MOS-13 wafer fab, according to an EE Times report. "The frequency could be higher if we were at higher power."
If they intend to double frequency every 18 months, than that means they intend to release a 2 GHz chip by July 2003! They released a 1 GHz chip in Jan, 2002. 18 months from then would bring us to...July, 2003.
They also said that the frequency could be HIGHER if they used a higher power. This is definately good news for mac users regardless of what some think. If we can have PPC 970 in Power Macs (and hopefully PowerBooks), and PPC 7457's in everything else- ALL approching or hitting the 2 GHz mark, we'll be doing really good in the performace arena (especially if Intel doesn't pull a 5 GHz P4 out of their A$$).
since we arre talking motorola thought i would just mention giga designs now have a 1.4 gig upgrade for over 600 bucks. I wonder if this will be a 7457 or a overclocked 7455????
The announcement by Moto may be new news to us, but definitely not for Apple.
If there is an advantage to using the 7457, (eg that they can utilise older motherboard designs) it will already be in the pipeline.
I think there is some sense in the speculation that Moto still has a future in Apple products. There is still a split in Apple's product range between G3 and G4. IBM co-developed the G3 before it split with the consortium over the direction of whether to altivec or not. It may not be viable to make a cost effective 970 iBook yet, but the iBook range will still need performance boosts. Where are they going to get that performance from?
If IBM and Moto both develop the PPC for Mac they could extend their development times and in effect leapfrog each other, with the newer tech going into the high end products and the current tech shifts down into the low end/low cost products.
R&D costs might be more pallatable as a result.
If there is an advantage to using the 7457, (eg that they can utilise older motherboard designs) it will already be in the pipeline.
I think there is some sense in the speculation that Moto still has a future in Apple products. There is still a split in Apple's product range between G3 and G4. IBM co-developed the G3 before it split with the consortium over the direction of whether to altivec or not. It may not be viable to make a cost effective 970 iBook yet, but the iBook range will still need performance boosts. Where are they going to get that performance from?
If IBM and Moto both develop the PPC for Mac they could extend their development times and in effect leapfrog each other, with the newer tech going into the high end products and the current tech shifts down into the low end/low cost products.
R&D costs might be more pallatable as a result.
i was really surprised to read about Moto talking about this Low-K stuff. so this means Moto is definitely trying to keep up with the PowerPC game?
i haven't read much about the 7457, but from what i've read here i'm starting to think that it would do OK if they kept the G4 in some Macs? is the 7457 available yet? would this be the reason that the PowerBooks update has been delayed so much? or will the next PowerBooks have the 970's? (i'm hoping yes, but i really think there is about a 30% chance of that.)
i haven't read much about the 7457, but from what i've read here i'm starting to think that it would do OK if they kept the G4 in some Macs? is the 7457 available yet? would this be the reason that the PowerBooks update has been delayed so much? or will the next PowerBooks have the 970's? (i'm hoping yes, but i really think there is about a 30% chance of that.)
I really dunno what's all this big fuss about. Motorola has been focusing on embedded markets for some time now and those specs should be of interest to someone in that area. Its just the author's opinion that it may eventually end up in some of the apple's products. Personaly i think that Apple has had it with them 2 yrs ago. Its just that they had to use their G4 cpu's in absence of any other alternatives. Motorola 7xxx series are certainly kick ass CPU's in embedded market, and thats exactly where Motorola wants them to be. For desktops (read Apple) they just dont make any sense at all. Crippled FSB that just can't hold on any of modern existing memory architectures without some expensive workarounds (system controler). Heck, even cheapest Celeron systems these days have decent FSB with DDR ram on them. I just see IBM written all over Apples next few years.
Regards
Regards
Re: Pathetic
And what is more pathetic is that you care... Awwwwwwwwwww.
Have fun with Longhorn... Oh wait! It isn't due till `05. Sorry, My Bad.
And what is more pathetic is that you care... Awwwwwwwwwww.
Have fun with Longhorn... Oh wait! It isn't due till `05. Sorry, My Bad.Re: Pathetic
Oh, I nearly forgot. It's IBM that announced the PPC970. It's a real processor. I'm quite content using my Dual G4, But I'm always looking for the next thing. What, Because I believe in the Mhz Myth, I'm not supposed to want a faster computer?
Hell, I'm an Amiga user, I remember when I hated Apple... Times change pal!
Oh, I nearly forgot. It's IBM that announced the PPC970. It's a real processor. I'm quite content using my Dual G4, But I'm always looking for the next thing. What, Because I believe in the Mhz Myth, I'm not supposed to want a faster computer?
Hell, I'm an Amiga user, I remember when I hated Apple... Times change pal!
too little too late for moto, i say.
unless maybe apple continues to use the g4 with low end systems rather than ibm's g3 or a slow 970. how does the power draw of this compare with the other procs?
unless maybe apple continues to use the g4 with low end systems rather than ibm's g3 or a slow 970. how does the power draw of this compare with the other procs?
I don't really care what company has built my CPU as long as it is fast, affordable and they didn't pay some 9 year old orphan 2c an hour.
I don't see what the problem is - as some folk have already noted, faster is faster.
i_b_joshua
I don't see what the problem is - as some folk have already noted, faster is faster.
i_b_joshua