Motorola iTunes Mobile Phone - in July?

[Misplaced Mage]

Yeah, there are two GSM frequencies. One that's popular in the US and one that's popular in Europe. The good phones (so-called "tri-band") support both (old A-band analog being the third). The cheaper ones don't.

Not quite right. Analog (AMPS) runs in the same 800MHz band used by CDMA, GSM, and the old TDMA standard. This was one of the reasons the carriers wanted everyone to switch over to digital phones when they started turning on the digital networks -- more capacity (i.e., customers) without buying more spectrum. Due to all the carrier acquisitions and inter-carrier roaming agreements, there's little distinction today between the original "cellular" 800MHz bands and the "PCS" 1900MHz bands other than from RF engineering and spectrum allocation standpoints.

So your typical tri-band GSM phone will work on the 800, 1800, and 1900MHz bands. Unfortunately, you're not going to see the 1800MHz bands made available to US carriers any time soon; they've been used by the US military for years. There was talk a few years ago of asking the DOD to give up those bands, but then came 9/11, and that was that.

 

[Dr.Gargoyle]

So your typical tri-band GSM phone will work on the 800, 1800, and 1900MHz bands.

The European triband operates on 900, 1800, 1900. That is more or less standard over here. The fancy phones are quadband. Besides the already mentioned, the phones handles UMTS aswell (whatever frequency that is).

 

[Misplaced Mage]

I believe that the GSM standard imposes much harder restrictions on the carriers when it comes to "locking in" their customers. The SIM cards they provide must work on all certified phones.

More at carrier request than anything. An "unlocked" phone will work with any SIM inserted without any further software modification. Since the US CDMA carriers don't use SIMs, their phones have carrier-specific features enabled/disabled with small files stored in the phone's firmware. Not terribly difficult to change or edit if you know what you're doing, but nothing as simple as swapping out a SIM, either.

 

[Misplaced Mage]

The European triband operates on 900, 1800, 1900. That is more or less standard over here. The fancy phones are quadband. Besides the already mentioned, the phones handles UMTS aswell (whatever frequency that is).

You're right. Over here, the 900MHz band is generally considered part of the 1900MHz band. It's some weird split that came out of the PCS spectrum definition, so a 800/900/1900MHz phone is typically considered a dual-band phone ("cellular" and "PCS") here. So a quad-band phone is 800/900/1800/1900, I think.

UMTS (a.k.a. 3GSM) is a third generation (3G) cellular telephony standard (the first being AMPS, the second being the first digital standards collectively). It operates on the same frequency bands as CDMA and GSM, but using a WCDMA air interface for better spectrum utilization. It's also deliberately incompatible with the IS-95 and IS-2000 CDMA standards to avoid some intellectual property issues (*cough*Qualcomm*cough*). Throw in the early WCDMA standard Japan uses for 3G use (different from UMTS') and the TD-SCDMA standard China is pushing, and we're still a loooong way from one global standard.

 

[Dr.Gargoyle]

More at carrier request than anything. An "unlocked" phone will work with any SIM inserted without any further software modification. Since the US CDMA carriers don't use SIMs, their phones have carrier-specific features enabled/disabled with small files stored in the phone's firmware. Not terribly difficult to change or edit if you know what you're doing, but nothing as simple as swapping out a SIM, either.

Before we get too far off topic, dont you think all these standards could pose a problem when it comes to a Phone/iPod. A CDMA phone/iPod would be degraded to an overpriced iPod if you try to use it in e.g. Europe. IMHO, I believe that this imposes a substansial problem to a phone/iPod.
Assuming that it is not just a phone that is capable of playing music, but more of an iPod combined with a phone.

 

[Misplaced Mage]

Before we get too far off topic, dont you think all these standards could pose a problem when it comes to a Phone/iPod. A CDMA phone/iPod would be degraded to an overpriced iPod if you try to use it in e.g. Europe. IMHO, I believe that this imposes a substansial problem to a phone/iPod.
Assuming that it is not just a phone that is capable of playing music, but more of an iPod combined with a phone.

The standards, no. At heart, they're just different protocols for moving data through the air, with the biggest differences at the lowest levels of the protocol, i.e., the physical layers. Once you're moving data, who cares how it's transmitted? Most popular cell phone applications are being written for both J2ME (Java, predominantly in GSM & UMTS phones) and BREW (Binary Runtime Environment for Wireless, CDMA/Qualcomm), so I have little doubt an iTunes app could be loaded on almost any cell phone with enough memory and downlink speed to make it worthwhile.

The big problem is that the carriers want a piece of the music pie by offering song downloads over the air. A phone that synchronizes playlists with a computer -- the very definition of the iTunes + iPod relationship -- without going through a carrier's network threatens that. After all, ringtone downloads are extremely lucrative.

 

[Dr.Gargoyle]

At heart, they're just different protocols for moving data through the air, with the biggest differences at the lowest levels of the protocol, i.e., the physical layers.

The problems as I see it is that these protocols are incompatible with each other. I dont care how the data is transmitted as long as it is transmitted. I dont have any use ofr a phone that I cant use, due that the local carrier uses another protocol than my phone.

 

[Abstract]

You're right. Over here, the 900MHz band is generally considered part of the 1900MHz band. It's some weird split that came out of the PCS spectrum definition, so a 800/900/1900MHz phone is typically considered a dual-band phone ("cellular" and "PCS") here. So a quad-band phone is 800/900/1800/1900, I think.

Close. I'm not phone expert, but I know this much......there are 4 frequencies:

850/900/1900 are used in North American GSM phones, although 900 and 1900 MHz will get you by. 850 MHz is just used in some parts of America and South Korea (and several other places), I believe, so even if you have a tri-band phone with these frequencies, you'll mostly be using 1900 and 900 MHz.

In Canada (where I'm from), we only use 1900 MHz, so unless I go to certain parts of the US, or to South Korea, I really only need dual band.

In Europe and most other places, a tri-band GSM phone can operate at 900/1800/1900 MHz.

I don't know if there's an 800 MHz frequency for GSM.

Anyway, I think its more useful to get a tri-band phone from Europe because I think to myself, "When am I really going to need 850 MHz?" Its like a tri-band phone where I'll only utilize 2 bands. With a European tri-band phone, or like on my SE K700i I got in Australia, it works in more places because I have the 1800 MHz frequency thats used in some countries in Europe.

And the best idea would just be to create an iTunes Mobile Java program that runs on any recent phone. It would have the greatest reach and may dominate, especially when each company is making their own software just to be different. Would I like going from an HP Computer to a Dell computer if all the mp3 players and web browsers were company specific so that I had to look at a different interface depending on what company I chose? I want to use one software regardless of which company made the phone.

 

[Abstract]

Do you use CDMA or GSM in Oz?
I share your fears when it comes to the price of the phones and accessories.

Both. I use a GSM phone in Australia.

 

[JzzTrump22]

This phone looks sweet. What services is it going to be compatible with?

 

[Dr.Gargoyle]

This phone looks sweet. What services is it going to be compatible with?

Just my question. Whatever service it will come with, the full concept (phone AND iPod) will only work with that particular service.
It is here I see the big drawback. If you don't travel it doesn't matter that much, but since both phones and iPods are meant to be mobile...

 

[ccool2ax]

Looks like a hoax

Even though it was confirmed by Motorolla, it looks like a hoax. First, didnt we see the phone and a screenshot at the Keynote? for those who actually watched the whole thing?
Second, the two songs are exactly the same length, both "1 of 10", both at the exact same location in the song when the screen was taken, and had the same battery and bars. huh?

 

[MontyZ]

Looks like someone from Motorola just posted this comment on those screenshots that Gizmodo posted:

The correct images of the iTunes screens are still under development and are not final nor approved by either Apple or Motorola. We would expect them to be available mid July when the product launches.

Thank you in advance for removing these images from your site.

Kind regards,
System Administrator
Motorola Collective

 

[BWhaler]

I'm not overly impressed. I've had a Motorola phone since the StarTac and I'll be honest... their software is kind of goofy. It works fine, but it's kind of clumsy. I was hoping to see some major improvements from Motorola with the help of Apple, but it seems to me this is just an iTunes Mobile app running on top of Motorola's sub-par software.

Sigh... I'm hoping for more.

I agree.

I've been using Sony Ericsson phones since they are so Mac friendly, but I just bought my wife the Razr.

I like the form factor of the phone and the 4 network GSM and long battery life make it a winner.

...until I used it. WOW. Motorola hasn't kept up with the times.

I hope Apple and Moto have an unbelievably awesome phone in store for us. Moto hardware, Apple software. Send a F/U to the carriers by releasing a phone everyone wantgs.

that would be fantastic and a total win=win.

 

[Poff]

Someone made a mockup based on the E398.. hope it doesn't turn out like this, it would be a shame for Apple..

 

[virividox]

im not holding my breath...but if they do come out i hope its something that matches my pbook

 

[aswitcher]

im not holding my breath...but if they do come out i hope its something that matches my pbook

Yep, that would be cool.

 

[bbyrdhouse]

The sound on one of these things would have to be terrible.

I can picture it now, when you download a song it will play back in that polyphonic sound.

Seriously, I just dont think that this will be a big item for Motorola or Apple.

 

[Azurael]

Those shots look like they're based on the original Motorola P2K platform [Triplets, Talint, etc] (As my year-and-a-half-old Motorola A835 runs) from the icons & layout, which would be a significant let-down as all of Motorola's new phones will be based on Synnergy (which is the new P2K OS, as on my E1000 and the other very recent 3G phones - V980/975, C975, and will be found on Moto 2G phones soon) which looks a lot prettier, responds a lot faster and is generally less buggy.

I can't imagine that would be the case, though Motorola do have their current flagship clamshell still running the older Triplets-series OS (The RaZR V3) but if they were to use Synnergy on the iTunes Phone it would mean an almost complete rewrite of mobile iTunes for it, in which case those must be fairly old screenshots.

And no, it won't play back in 'Polyphonic' sound. (as in convert it to a MIDI file) - most modern mobile phones have fully functional MP3 players - my current E1000 even has stereo speakers built in to it if you don't want to use the headset. It can play MP3, Real Audio, WMA, AAC, etc - in fact the only reason for wanting iTunes vs. Motorola's own Java-based Media Player in my case would be the ability to synchronise/upload songs with iTunes.

 

[shamino]

Just my question. Whatever service it will come with, the full concept (phone AND iPod) will only work with that particular service.

Since Motorola sells phones using all the popular technologies, it's anybody's guess which they'll use for the intial release. I'm sure, if iTunes support becomes popular, that they'll release subsequent models with all the popular technologies (CDMA, GSM, PCS).

As for working with one service, obviously, the phone parts will only work with the network it (or its SIM card, in the case of GSM) are activated for. I don't expect the benefits/drawbacks of the phone parts to be any different from all other phones.

WRT the iTunes features, I'm not very optimistic. I can state with certainty that companies like Verizon will demand that it be crippled. I say this because that's what they did with my phone.

I use an Audiovox CDM 8600. This phone allows you to install screen-savers, wallpapers and ring-tones from attachments received in EMS text messages. Verizon's version of this phone, however, has the entire EMS facility disabled, in order to prevent you from doing this. They force you to buy these customizations through their over-the-air service at insane prices (like $5 for a 20-second ring tone.) (I am aware that you can install hacked firmware to put the missing features back, but you shouldn't have to do this.)

This is why the carriers are all opposed to a proper iTunes phone. They don't want you to install your ripped CDs into the phone. They don't even want you to pay the iTMS $0.99 price for a song. They want to charge you lots more - probably in the range of $3-5 each.

Of course, Motorola and Apple are refusing to allow this. They know that if people end up paying 50% of the price of an album, in order to install a single song, nobody will use the service and people will start associating the name "iTunes" with "overpriced."

 

[SeaFox]

The bottom line is: it seems like Moto will have to make many versions of it, assuming they want to be able to sell it on more than one market. Moreover, you won't be able to use your CDMA iTunesphone as a phone if you go to Europe... Didn't think of that aspect before.

GSM phone are almost all triband now, so Motorola will have to make two versions: A Eupoean verison with support for 900, 1800, and 1900 or something like that, and a U.S. version with 850 (Cingular), 1800, and 1900 (T-Mobile). I used to be really annoyed at T-Mobile for using 1900 mhz, because almost all the interesting phones were 800/900/1800. Now I don't have to wait for an official U.S. model, as the Euopean models usually support 1900mhz now.

 

[Azurael]

The European triband operates on 900, 1800, 1900. That is more or less standard over here. The fancy phones are quadband. Besides the already mentioned, the phones handles UMTS aswell (whatever frequency that is).

UMTS is the data transmission mechanism for WCDMA 2100/1900 aka 3G... This is exciting news!

 

[josepho]

I don't know if there's an 800 MHz frequency for GSM.

Although this might be getting slightly OTT I just wanted to say that the 800Mhz & 850Mhz frequencies are the same. Basically the frequency is closer to 850Mhz, but in the past, for some bizarre reason it was referred to as 800, that is, before it was used on GSM -- which is a fairly recent thing (before it was used for CDMA, TDMA, AMPS and iDen, still is actually). This has led to confusion as people see them as two frequencies, when actually they're the same, just with two names.

Personally, I think that if the so-rumoured iPod phone was to appear, its first incarnation would be GSM (probably with a 850/1800/1900 N.American version, and a 900/1800/1900 version for Europe), then after a while of rangling with Sprint and Verizon we might see a CDMA version come out. Whether it would be uncrippled, I don't know.

I don't think Motorola/Apple could restrict sales to directly from them, as in certain countries (for example, here in the UK) handsets are so heavily subsidised that few people would be willing to take the handset for anywhere near the full price. People here expect, and are given by the networks, almost all phones free (dependent on their monthly spend, naturally), so paying - say - £500 (~$900+) for their phone would not be on. Sure, they'd pay that for a fancy iPod, but as soon as you mention its a phone "I want my phone for free"... When will they learn, they only pay for it through their high call charges, etc. "No such thing as a free lunch", and all that.

 

[beatle888]

Don't you think you need another hardware interface? I was basically hoping for an iPod with phone capabilities and not the other way around.

Thats sorta what a lot of people thought but it was never the case.

Motorola makes the phone, not apple. the deal was that apple would supply a mobile version of the iTunes sotware for Motorola to put on there cell phones.
People should be talking about what Apple is going to do since the wireless companies won't do business with them. Apple cuts the wireless companies out of the revenue stream. THEY want to offer downloadable music and won't support the Apple/Motorola mobile iTunes phone. AND Microsoft is behind the wireless companies with their DRM. THIS should be what people are talking about. Thier going to wedge Apple out of the market with cheap personal devices and Microsofts DRM content. And if Microsoft uses the H.264 codek with a new media player then sure it will look good but the software will be lame. It will work ok but it wont be Apple. This can probably happen in the next ten years and the possiblity makes me wince. Isn't microsofts DRM a nightmare?

 

[beatle888]

I'm not sure what the phone will look like or how much it will emulate the iPod or anything like that. The real question is how do Motorolla and Apple expect to sell a cell phone this hyped WITHOUT ANY U.S. CARRIERS:?!?!?!?!?! In order to have the phone part, you need a carrier. If no U.S. carries will agree to support the cell phone, this whole project is going to be flop.

You said it. And the fact that the carriers can do this is why Apple will probably always get burned. Do you think if Microsoft was in Apples shows with this iTunes business that the carriers would stand in their way? This is going to be very interesting. But if Apple can pull it off. And you and everyone else starts to notice the HD content with QuickTime 7. And how thats built into iTunes and hopefully soon the mobile iTunes then this could be amazing for Apple. H.264 is MADE to scale from the new HDDVDs to cell phones.

QuickTime 7 turns this iMac into a 20" HDTV. It looks BETTER than any HDTV iv'e seen.