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birds make music all the time....


how long before we have to pay royalties on that?

soon enough the birds will be making more then me....

*sighs*
 
This thread is about ASCAP, BMI, songwriters and publishers.

If you want to bag on the RIAA,
start a post that has something to do with them!

The music business is very complicated. Unless someone has years of experience in this biz, then they should not comment.
Knowledge before opinion!!

This thread reminds me of the town hall bozos, very little knowledge, plenty of bluster...

Agreed. Songwriters are publishers are getting screwed royally nowadays.

Gotta love the folks who on one hand complain the art these people produce isn't good and in their next breath advocate its piracy. If it isn't good, why feel the need to steal it?

If the music and film industry dies, so does iTunes...I'm sure Apple's business model will flourish under those circumstances
 
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The big record companies-much like Microsoft, are fast becoming irrelevant in the 21st Century....
their outmoded sales models and ideas will bring them to their knees;
an open secret: groups no longer need the marketing or distribution arms of the big companies, for the most part;

While in a local record shop the other day- i remarked upon how can all these small unknown groups on small unknown labels afford such creatively designed *DELUXE* packaging-as I am seeing? AND STILL MAKE A LIVING

The clerk responded with the sales breakdown facts, roughly:
BIG COMPANY: 20% to group, 35% distributors/warehouse, 45% record company;
INDIE METHOD: 40% to group 40% to pressing/distributors (20% to indie label-often the bands own creation)(also many times an APPLE computer using SHAKE etc, becomes the almost for free "home studio" of choice; BAT FOR LASHES is an example of making this work-they go to the studio only for some final tweaking/mastering-savings THOUSANDS of £'s........)
the internet- and an APPLE computer (fact: MOST musicians will use a MAC to create their music-not sure why)makes the big company obsolete as far as recording & advertising expense goes
The indie company and distributor also often co-op publicity together, further increasing efficiency
UToob and myspace really work wonders-and fan reposting of videos/songs really penetrate deep into the "market"--randomly, 150 video posts of LIKE A VIRGIN each reaches a different subset of people-by chance; .001% here, .003% there increased exposure means SOME will torrent-but MANY will BUY
The mistake the record companies are making is they want ALL of the pie that goes to the download/never buy subset-good f*cking luck, me hearties!
The indies however, look at this as more exposure-and each 1% climb in sales really adds to the coffers-they have no huge infrastructure to keep up
It is well known that iTunes breaks even or makes coffee change
So here they are PUSHING music for the big jerks-and the big jerks want to bite the hand(s) that feeds them
Its iTunes that should be asking for a fee AND percent of sales for doing their job sucessfully;

I would squarely put APPLE in the "indie" model, quickly rising
I would put Microsoft and the big record companies in the fast dying dinosaur sales model: clueless greed

The dolts are killing themselves
F*cking idiots
 
Support the artist not the labels. Bittorent + See the artist live = Helps artist not greedy ****ing label:D

You do realize that for most bands, touring is used to pay the recording costs and other associated costs. Its amazing how people have a real lack of any basic knowledge of the music industry.
 
Many people get pensions when they work on a job a long time. Songwriters have pensions in that they collect royalties. Taking away their royalties is like taking away someone's pension after they spent 30 years on the job.

But wouldn't they only be getting royalties if their work was used? What happens if nobody is using their work by the time they retire? What kind of retirement planning is that. Besides, pensions are becoming rare. I'll never see a dime from a pension. I'll manage anyways.

The government has told songwriters that they cannot charge what they want for use of their music. The government has instead set the rates for what they think use of someone's music is worth. Songwriters are forced to accept that rate.

What happens if a use is not listed in those rules? If there's no applicable law, then wouldn't they get to negotiate the rate themselves? If the law doesn't provide a rate for the particular use, how exactly does anybody have a right to use it without the writer's permission?

Edit: I suppose the problem is that the particular use here, selling the TV show, doesn't provide royalties as good as public performance royalties? If so, go ahead and fix the system. But wouldn't it make more sense to change the royalties paid on a digital download instead of trying to get digital downloads reclassified as a public performance, which they are not?
 
+1.

Flies in the face of free market systems, and the concept of fair use once I purchase a product. If I buy a CD, and then use a song as my ring tone, is that a public performance?

Yeah let these people have their way you have to pay a performance fee for the ringtone when somebody calls you and the phone rings! :eek:

I hope Obama calls them a jackass too! :D
 
Listen, don't bitch to me about "writers make next to nothing". Same as waiters/waitresses....don't bitch to me about "you need to tip this much because they only get paid $2.15 per hour".

It's their OWN CHOICE to do that job and they know damn well how much they are getting paid.

I have no sympathy for people who CHOOSE to do jobs that pay very little. Go get an education and apply for higher paying jobs.....not a writer or waiter.

Now, with that said, I think if they begin to get charge-happy with digital content on iTunes and even go as far as charging for 30-second samples, I'll be more than happy to hit the torrent sites. I don't care.

People who write songs and music have a right to earn a fair amount from what is effectively their own creation. Even before itunes the music industry was taking a disproportionate cut of the proceeds of music sales.

'Hitting the torrent sites' says a lot about the value you place on music. You're happy to be entertained by it, but you don't feel it's worth paying for. Perhaps you wouldn't feel the same if your employer took the same view of your work? Replacing you with a cheaper machine perhaps?
 
I do not agree with them.

Apple can not negotiate with every single artist. That is why they negotiate with the Major 4.

If the Major 4 do not have the rights to the songs, then a deal should not be struck. But it sounds to me like they do have the rights and that the artists are negotiating with the lables and now have a problem with the negotiated arrangement.

They should start their own label then negotiate with Apple.

Everyone wants to nickel and dime everyone it seems.

If performers and artists are not getting payed what is own to them, why they don't take the labels to court?

New USE ..... If the rights are not spelled out and the material is being used in a particular way that is not covered, then either the artist reserves those rights or they wait out their contract and negotiate with the labels taking into consideration those new uses/rights. Labels/ Labels/ Labels. Those are the guys everyone has to deal with, maybe artists, performers and writers should do the same and live within the clauses of their contract. They should take it to court and not Congress, this is a civil issue.

Too much.
 
People who write songs and music have a right to earn a fair amount from what is effectively their own creation. Even before itunes the music industry was taking a disproportionate cut of the proceeds of music sales.

'Hitting the torrent sites' says a lot about the value you place on music. You're happy to be entertained by it, but you don't feel it's worth paying for. Perhaps you wouldn't feel the same if your employer took the same view of your work? Replacing you with a cheaper machine perhaps?

They should get their fair share from the labels that represent them. If they are not happy with their contract, then they should negotiate a new contract or move elsewhere where they can get a fair shake.
 
You do realize that for most bands, touring is used to pay the recording costs and other associated costs. Its amazing how people have a real lack of any basic knowledge of the music industry.

LOL. Touring is where the bands MAKE most of their revenue, not album sales. :rolleyes:
 
Very little of what you said here is correct.

1) It is not a violation of copyright law to do your own recording of someone else's song. The Copyright Tribunal has set the mechanical royalty rate at 9.1 cents per copy. This means that if you do your own recording of someone else's song, you must pay them 9.1 cents per copy for each copy that you distribute, regardless of the method of distribution (CD, cassette, download, etc.) There is no negotiation of any kind. The rate is set by a government agency. And you do not need their permission. If you write a song, anyone can record it if they want, provided that they pay you the appropriate royalties.

http://www.copyright.gov/carp/m200a.html

Thanks for the explanation and reference.

You can download or stream a YouTube cover-- does this constitute publishing or distribution?

If you post a "Cover" to YouTube and it has thousands of plays, are royalties due?

Who pays them?

*
 
Maybe the artists and writers should stand up for themselves instead of demanding the consumer or the government do it for them?

Do they not have unions or other bargaining groups with some clout - something like SAG? And if they don't, maybe they should organize one?



The purpose of that 30-second preview is not entertainment, but education.

I expect that the majority of folks using that 30 second feature are doing so to ensure that this is indeed the song they were interested in buying. The next likely reason is because they heard a song they liked from the artist and wish to see if they have anything similar.

The publishers and writers are effectively and essentially arguing that consumers are generating playlists of scores of 30-second snippets to listen to for entertainment purposes - since one attends a performance for entertainment - and that is ludicrous.
 
Music Business is tough. I'm producing some music and releasing it under my label right now. Usually you'd pay money to advertise your stuff, which is what people are doing if they incorporate a snippet of your song in a TV show or someone hears it as a ringtone.

The problem is that the major labels want to milk every penny out of the music the release which disgruntles their customers. If a song is played on the radio, that's different because the radio station gets better ratings if they play the good song so they have more ad/subscriber revenue.

It's all really complicated. Music shouldn't be 100% business, it should be about musicians who love to make music and fans who love to listen to music. Just make lots of youTube videos and you'll get tons of fans who will buy anything new from you in a heartbeat. Exhibit A: http://www.youtube.com/pomplamoosemusic

Most major label stuff right now can be compared with the brown kind of fecal matter. Some stuff is great, but hard to get. That's where iTunes (and Amazon MP3) shines, you can find very obscure stuff on there. I actually buy lots of underground music, it also helps the artist to afford making more good music. It's a bit like being a shareholder.
 
From an artists perspective...

So, while most on here are crying fowl and greed, etc, as someone who writes music for TV, and has albums on iTunes, I thought I'd lend my perspective.

While the whole 30 second clip thing sounds absurd (I don't think anyone should be compensated for samples), perhaps they are just trying to get congress to see digital distribution in a different light. Anyways, I write background music. I don't do tours, most people will watch a show, and if the music is doing its job, often not even notice that it was there, or who composed it, or even care. The fact of the matter is though, that performance royalties are a large part in how I make a living. It's giving a very small amount back to those who were actually creatively involved in the creation of what is being shown.

When someone buys a TV show, or a soundtrack album on iTunes, who gets that money? Certainly not me. It goes to Apple and the big studios or labels. Granted, it is possible to negotiate that a composer would get something from soundtrack sales, but for something like a TV show, in which there are so many parties involved, it is near impossible unless you are John Williams or something. I would think fighting to get a fair amount of royalties for the little guy (*waves*) is a fair thing to ask for. Small non-profit companies like ASCAP who collect royalties for composers certainly don't have the resources to fairly negotiate with giant greedy studios, so I think taking the issue to congress is somewhat fair, especially since congress is passing laws in relation to digital media itself.
 
Maybe the artists and writers should stand up for themselves instead of demanding the consumer or the government do it for them?

Do they not have unions or other bargaining groups with some clout - something like SAG? And if they don't, maybe they should organize one?

No, there is no composers union, and I think composers such as myself are the only major part of film making, tv making etc. that doesn't have a union. Basically, all we have are small royalty collection organizations like ASCAP and BMI. Us composers have to fend for ourselves against the giant studio machine. Even Music Editors and the actual Musicians who play the music we write have a unions! It's crazy.
 
as for the back end of the spectrum....producers/writers etc are the last to know first to go...so theyve become completely controlled and disposable by any sort of company that hires them.

as far as i know there are way too many cooks in this kitchen that controls the distribution of writing efforts, producing, publication, artists and money in general.

i mean unless the writer/publication specifically licenses the works with profit % + earning anytime its out there than okay, they need to tweak that.
but i think it starts primarily with a compensation package for getting the job done and then thats that.
surely this isnt an apples to apples comparison but an architect designs a building and there is a fee for everyime sometime enters or uses part of the building itself...that would seem completely ludicrous.


i think fair is fair but getting a penny out of every little thing is just a waste of time and money

i may know next to nothing about it all and honestly i dont really want to or care much; as now that industry is just full of clutter and garbage.
but i guess just using some common sense and principles can point out some of the mishaps in the practices and business workings of that industry.
 
You all do realize a lot of these writers make next to nothing.

Didn't read all the replies so pardon me if this is a repeated argument...

Why is this my problem? I am not their customer. They sold their stuff to the recording artist. If they didn't make enough they should charge the artist more. I am buying the artists' rendition of their lyrics at the price set by the recording artist.
 
No, there is no composers union, and I think composers such as myself are the only major part of film making, tv making etc. that doesn't have a union. Basically, all we have are small royalty collection organizations like ASCAP and BMI. Us composers have to fend for ourselves against the giant studio machine. Even Music Editors and the actual Musicians who play the music we write have a unions! It's crazy.

So why not have a union? If there's a group organized and large enough to lobby congress, wouldn't that group be organized and large enough to negotiate with companies?
 
But wouldn't they only be getting royalties if their work was used? What happens if nobody is using their work by the time they retire? What kind of retirement planning is that. Besides, pensions are becoming rare. I'll never see a dime from a pension. I'll manage anyways.

Royalties are earnings you get for music placements from the past. I'll give an example quite common for my company:

Let's suppose I place a song on a network program like Saturday Night Live. When the program is broadcast, the songwriter receives a performance royalty from BMI or ASCAP (whichever performing rights society he/she is a member of). BMI and ASCAP are both private non-profit societies who collect performance royalties from the broadcasters and pay them to the songwriters and publishers. Songwriters cannot set their own performance royalty rates. They must accept what BMI or ASCAP pay them.

As programs are broadcast over and over, first when they are new, and then in syndication, every time that program is broadcast, the songwriter receives royalties.

A songwriter who specializes in music for television or films (actually much more common than songwriters who write in the pop field) will have built up a nice resume of programs and movies in which his/her music has been used by the time they are ready to retire. They continue to receive royalties every time their music is aired.

Without the long term royalties, there simply isn't enough money being paid to make a living. Most of them still have a day job when they start out, and it takes many years before they can move to doing music full time. But they do this because of the long term benefits. It's like building a business. Over time your royalty checks become higher and higher as you write more music and have more of your music placed.

The problem is that they don't receive any royalties when the program or movie is downloaded from the internet. And as fewer people watch shows live and now watch them online or download them, the songwriters will receive less and less royalties. There needs to be an adjustment to the system to allow for them to get a percentage of the profit made from downloads. Otherwise there is no incentive for any songwriter to write for television of film.




What happens if a use is not listed in those rules? If there's no applicable law, then wouldn't they get to negotiate the rate themselves? If the law doesn't provide a rate for the particular use, how exactly does anybody have a right to use it without the writer's permission?

Good point. Unfortunately for them, companies like iTunes simply assume there are no royalties to be paid because there is no law stating that there are. If the status quo continues and there is no legislation passed by congress, you can bet there will be some major lawsuits and then it will be decided by the courts.

I'll give you an example of this with regard to the record companies. The link I posted above was a link to the statutory mechanical royalty rate. That is simply the royalty a record company (or anyone else that sells a recording) must pay to a songwriter for each copy of each song that is sold. The current rate is 9.1 cents. So to clarify, if a record company sells an album with 10 songs on it, they must pay 91 cents in royalties to the various songwriters or songwriters. When record companies began selling online downloads, since the price they charged was less than what they charged for a compact disc, they took it upon themselves to stop paying 9.1 cents and lower the rate. It took a number of lawsuits before the Copyright Tribunal finally stepped in and decided to set a special rate for online downloads.

I know that nobody likes government involvement in these matters, but the alternative is chaos. It would be far too messy to have to negotiate every time music is used or a CD is sold. Music publishers, record companies, and television/film production companies would have to have huge amounts of staff and lawyers to handle each and every small thing that they do. It is simply not a system that can work. There must be a set of standard rates for these things, which there are. And like anything else, there are some parties who will always think the rate is too low while others will always say it is too high. And both sides will lobby congress for what they want.

I can tell you that in general, the royalty rates for music use in the United States are much lower than those in Europe and other industrialized countries.


Edit: I suppose the problem is that the particular use here, selling the TV show, doesn't provide royalties as good as public performance royalties? If so, go ahead and fix the system. But wouldn't it make more sense to change the royalties paid on a digital download instead of trying to get digital downloads reclassified as a public performance, which they are not?

Good point. The problem is that songwriters who write for television have traditionally been required to sign away all of their rights except for performance rights. So anything not classified as peformance royalties would go to the publisher, not them.

The problem is that we are talking about a major change in a system that has been around for about 50 years. It would be like if we decided to stop paying social security to older people even though they paid into the fund their entire lives. These songwriters signed over the works to publishers under a system that paid them royalties on the back end, and now that back end is disappearing.
 
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