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My First Job. Critiques/Ideas needed!

Oh, one more thing to the OP. If you're trying to figure out proportions for the logo (i.e. total width vs height), golden rectangles are always a good choice.
 
timato said:
Graphic design isn't taught. You can't teach someone how to design. You can teach them techniques, but design is subjective, personal, and can never please everyone...
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Uh... okay. 🙄 So anyone going to MIT design school, Pratt, RISD, Art Center, Parsons, etc., they are all wasting their time?

Wow, most of this thread has turn into a pile of horse dung. Okay, I get it... most of you hate formally trained Designers. Especially those of you who don't know anything about Graphic Design! Geez... it reminds me of how PC people treat Mac people on the 3d design forums. Some of you blather at the keyboard about how elitist Graphic Designers are, but then you don't bother to re-read your own writings to see that you are the pot calling the kettle black. Some of you are so vindictive in the tone of your posts! It's "nerving" 😉 But yeah... some of us (me) are a bit head-strong. I feel that we/I have earned the right by paying our dues and putting up with crap over the years. But anyway -seriously, I may have wrote some strong and direct to the point posts (especially in defense of my profession), but I haven't stooped to the level some of you have by bashing and dismissing formally trained Designers. I find it especially interesting how many negative comments came from people who are NOT designers and then they comment like they know what it takes to be one. Wow! Are you saying I wasted all that time and money going to school?? Oh, crap!

Or, are you just "jealous" because you couldn't hack it with your own pursuits? I'm just asking... 🙂

Hey, I'll give you this. I am sorry. I MAY have been wrong to imply that you have to be formally trained to be a Graphic Designer. There is plenty of need for logos on the sides of pickup trucks, yard sale signs, and $20 dollar logos for your neighbors/family businesses. Keep them coming! It's a source of entertainment when I'm driving around town running errands or surfing the web. I'm always amazed at what some of you folks come up with! 😉

Here's one I ran into on the web today. I love the logo on the main page! Excellent use of the bevel and emboss and the drop-shadow is a nice subtle touch!

Nice logo-type

Then there is this jewel of a website. I'm sure whoever designed it didn't have any formal training because of how beautiful and functional it is.

Beautiful site

Also, someone mentioned David Carson as someone who did well without a degree. Well... there's a dandy for you. Great example of someone who shook up the industry by breaking all of the rules (of type). Probably because, for the most part, he didn't know the rules. He was mostly self-taught and is a great example of someone who managed to make it without a design degree. Although, it should be mentioned that he did go to art school in San Diego as well as take design classes in Switzerland. And there was his sociology degree... But those don't count, right?

And just because you go to school doesn't make you successful. Yeah, I agree with that. You also have to have passion and determination. Good schools weed out the posers, or people who didn't have the inherent talent. It's hard to fake your way to a graphic design degree if you attend a reputable school. My school wouldn't even let you in without passing a strict portfolio requirement. Fail and you have to wait a year before resubmitting. Those who don't get in, choose another field or try to go it alone. See what I'm saying here? Would you let a doctor work on you if he couldn't get into med school? Just asking...

Well, that reminds me; I have to run off and get my teeth worked on by my brother-in-law. He's thinking about becoming a dentist, so I thought I'd save some money and have him fix a cavity and do a deep cleaning. It's a great idea because he gets to learn and I get to save a chunk of money from having to go to a professional! I just know that Dentists are all over-paid and elitists! I mean, how hard can it be!!

I'll leave you with a link that shows some ol' boring logos that were done by Paul Rand. He was formally trained at Pratt - I wonder if that was a waste of his time?

Some Rand logos

Oh, and one more...

Malcolm Grear. Another boringly trained Graphic Designer. He we went to school at Art Academy of Cincinnati. Looking at his work... I wonder if it has paid off? I do know that it got him a professorship at RISD... as well as getting to do the primary designs for the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta. So maybe...?

If you want to see some of his work, you might want to check it out at the following link because you won't see his designs on the side of pickup trucks while driving around town (unless you live in Rhode Island).

Malcolm Grear indentity

Peace out everyone 😀





*My opinions in no way reflect the Graphic Design community. They are solely my own and I mean no offense to anyone who is serious about the discipline of Graphic Design. To everyone else...
 
Being in my final year of my undergraduate in Architecture, I think I've spotted the difference between trained and untrained designers.

Everyone on earth has at at least one point in their life sketched down a design of some sort and thought "yeah, that looks cool...if i ever fail at *insert career here* i could become a designer".

However, a professionally trained designer is able to produce at least a 7 out of 10 design ALL OF THE TIME. Novices can produce anything from a 1 to a 10, and it can change from week to week.


It is also worth noting that we all started off knowing little of nothing when we entered design school. But 3 years (or whatever your degree length was) of being with 100's of people like yourself searching for better design practices and being critiqued each week of those 3 years accelerates your learning about design.


However, I reckon the best way to learn anything is an apprenticeship - being with a master of your chosen craft each day for a number of years.
 
timato said:
Graphic design isn't taught. You can't teach someone how to design. You can teach them techniques, but design is subjective, personal, and can never please everyone...

People think in today's world that they are entitled to be called a graphic designer because they went to an arts college, or did a MA in graphic design or similar, but how does that equate as to whether you should be charging or not? Surely that decision should be made on whether your work and instinct is decent...
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Um...just out of curiosity. Ever heard of the basic principles of design? While I agree there is a certain amount of subjectivity to the field, I have to strongly disagree with you that design in entirely - even a majority subjective. There are basic fundamentals that most of us learned in various classes over the years, and for that matter, from starting out in design and getting help from other more experienced designers.

Furthermore, most of us are entitled to be graphic designers because we frakkin' love what we do. We have a passion for creating eye-catching and innovative designs. We love solving design problems. We go to college and take classes to enhance our skills and become even better at what we do. Hell - that's why we post on these forums. To get some feedback and criticism and to grow better in our field.

timato - please don't come on here and insult people by disparaging their life's passion. I know we tend to come across as completely elitist and inaccessible (It has happened many times before), but a lot of that stems from graphic design being a very thankless job. Yet we still love it.

On that note, I need a drink.
 
ChicoWeb said:
These threads are lame! I say help him or move on. So many over inflated egos it's painful to read through.
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Agreed, can't a mod/admin separate the thread into the existing one, where poeple can help this guy, and a new one where we discuss the merits and pitfalls of asking for help... 🙄
 
MacDaddy901 said:
2nkooev.jpg
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Several things:

1) Before devoting more time to focusing on this design you should go back to the drawing board and try to make 5 more logos that are completely different from everything you've already done. Really try to explore what it is that the company does. Create a visual element that helps the target user understand that company's business. After doing that, if you still feel that this is your best rough idea, move on to the next points.

2) I'd stay away from putting that + in the O. It's not going to reproduce well at smaller sizes, and it really just seems forced. Almost like you realized there wasn't a lot going on in the logo so you decided to spice it up with a + sign. If it were me, and I was really just stuck on using that + I think I would look at using it in place of the T.

3) Your tracking & kerning is awkward in most of your designs, but especially so here. There's space between the letters is ambiguous. Are they intentionally tracked wide? Is that just the way the typeface spaced them? Either increase the tracking (if you're going for that "classy" look) or focus on kerning the letters to elminate the awkward spaces and inconsistencies between letter differences.

4) I'm not sold on this typeface in general, especially not with the use of small caps. The small caps just seem arbitrary and really compromise the message. If you're trying to create an assertive, bold look, why not just go with all caps? If you're looking for something more modern and trendy, I'd suggest you ditch the small caps and go with title case or all lower case.

5) I saved this one for last. Hopefully you're still reading. 😉 The most glaring issue with this design is that you put the word *GROWTH* in a box. A box! Just think about that one for a minute. You have to be mindful of the subconscious effects of your designs, and not just the obvious meanings your imagery conveys.
 
Why are graphic designers so precious?? The fact remains that all the training you need is minimal and it isn't a black art. All you need is to read a few books and take and to interest in how stuff is put together.

I don't know of any degree that teaches logos! Its all self taught.

There are so many disciplines of design, none really better than the other. Graphics is easier to get into that most, and often you need to pick these skills up if you want to excel at other design types.

My advice would be to just keep going and enjoy it. I like the first logo on the very first post most. It doesnt really need to tell a story, just needs to be individual and fundamental.

I think the medical cross looks a bit naff, -sorry. Its a medical company dah!
 
This has been quite an interesting read. I do agree with THX to a point.. not necessarily about the OP, but the state of creative industries in general.

All too often, anyone with photoshop elements or print shop deluxe feels they can do just as good a job as a trained professional. The weekend warrior is way too prevalent... in all fields. Powerful consumer-level software makes this possible for nearly anyone these days. Garageband has made overnight rock stars, iMovie has made instant Spielbergs.. head to Best Buy, get a digital SLR and you're a photographer....you get the idea. 😀

Not saying this is the case with the OP, just seems to be going around.
 
jbennardo said:
This has been quite an interesting read. I do agree with THX to a point.. not necessarily about the OP, but the state of creative industries in general.

All too often, anyone with photoshop elements or print shop deluxe feels they can do just as good a job as a trained professional...head to Best Buy, get a digital SLR and you're a photographer...you get the idea. 😀
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If you know enough to go for a DSLR and not a point and shoot, you must know something 😛. From my friends' viewpoints, "you can't even see what you're taking a picture of on the display," and "you have to turn it to zoom." Clearly for them, the point and shoot is the "better" camera.
 
derboy said:
Why are graphic designers so precious?? The fact remains that all the training you need is minimal and it isn't a black art. All you need is to read a few books and take and to interest in how stuff is put together.

I don't know of any degree that teaches logos! Its all self taught.

There are so many disciplines of design, none really better than the other. Graphics is easier to get into that most, and often you need to pick these skills up if you want to excel at other design types.

My advice would be to just keep going and enjoy it. I like the first logo on the very first post most. It doesnt really need to tell a story, just needs to be individual and fundamental.

I think the medical cross looks a bit naff, -sorry. Its a medical company dah!
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Okay - this must be a troll post. Pretty much everything he wrote is just wrong. My guess is that derboy is not a graphic designer, nor does he have any clue to what being one entails.

And while I'm making this post, I thought I'd mention that usclaneyj is spot on with his 5 point crit. It's all basic stuff - the kerning issues, tracking, leading, choice of type, etc... and if the OP had any formal experience he would have already known about those issues and fixed them BEFORE showing here for crit. As a designer, I SEE those issues right away. My eye has been TRAINED to see stuff like that so that I don't allow them to creep into my designs. That's what makes a formally trained designer better than most self-taught people. We have learned how to SEE and react to solving visual problems.
 
usclaneyj said:
5) I saved this one for last. Hopefully you're still reading. 😉 The most glaring issue with this design is that you put the word *GROWTH* in a box. A box! Just think about that one for a minute. You have to be mindful of the subconscious effects of your designs, and not just the obvious meanings your imagery conveys.
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I would love to hear your logic on this one.

What does it convey to you?
 
I am also a bit bothered by all these "Software" taunts. I am in my final year as a Software Engineer and trust me, it's far from just "Learning programming language from a book".

There are many things that are included in software including but not limited to designing the software, industry programming standards etc. which cannot be self taught. The people who think that they can just "self teach" software engineering need to get their heads out of their asses and look around.

@OP: I also like the logo that sushi pointed out but that's just me.
 
Perhaps my comments were a bit strong! 😱

I'd just like to say to the OP keep going. Your work isn't that bad, and with some more research it would be fine to sell.

I am a designer. Product designer with lots of my work available to buy in the shops. I meet and work with many people working around the world in the field of design. Graphics guys don't need to be so hard on people trying to get going with it. It is perfectly cool to get started from scratch. It can easily be learnt.
 
sushi said:
I would love to hear your logic on this one.

What does it convey to you?
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You really don't see the problem with "enclosing" the concept or word Growth in a box or container? 😱
Containing… limiting… preventing…

Hmmmmmmm. 🙂

THX1139 said:
Malcolm Grear. Another boringly trained Graphic Designer.
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Although I must confess I am not a fan of the Presbyterian aka "sweaty armpits" logo… 😉

THX1139 said:
Beautiful site
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HBOC said:
thanks for that link. My eyes and head still hurt.
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No joke. 😱
Wow. I needed to go sit in a darkened room for a while.

However, let's not forget that all the training in the world and a massive design fee can still lead to this:
_43005619_london_new_pink_203.gif
 
^ Did the London logo fulfill its purpose, YES. I still consider it to be in my 10 ten best logo concepts.

Did I like the design of the logo NO, but its success can be put to that fact it created the hype it was meant to create. Again you get what you pay for and the strategy implemented by Wolf Olins was spot on.
 
arkitect said:
You really don't see the problem with "enclosing" the concept or word Growth in a box or container? 😱
Containing… limiting… preventing…

Hmmmmmmm. 🙂
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Since it looks like usclaneyj is not going to answer, I will offer you this.

Take off your designer hat and put on your investor hat for a moment.

Conservative, responsible, integrity, professional, honest, etc. come to mind which is what I want with my funds/money!

The line on the left and underneath the words indicate a run chart -- one of the most popular charts used by investors. Additionally, if you look at it as an investor, it shows an up tick and down tick which portrays a realistic approach since the market go up and down and is rarely static. By having the upper part in the middle, the logo gives the impression of growth.

Granted different fonts might be used. Possibly a different color. But for a first time out, the OP created a decent logo. 🙂
 
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