my first Quicksilver - Questions

[retta283]

Just bought a G4 quicksilver, my first one as I only had the 2000 G4 before this. Bent the knee and bought online, but it's a trustworthy guy who I've had past good dealing with. As I recall, the Quicksilvers are pretty reliable machines overall, it seems the MDD generation started issues.

Had a few questions about these though before I receive it. First, it seems to be a 2001 733MHz, but I have also seen people say they silently updated this rev later on. Apparently it already has a 160GB drive in it, but as I understand it the 733MHz model can only support up to 128GB. I'm wondering if the drive still works fine and just doesn't use the extra space or if this will cause issues and should be swapped for a smaller drive.

If I have to swap it, ideally I'd like to find a way to get an SSD into it, which I haven't researched yet. Not sure what kind of adapter system I'd need to use for it. RAM is already maxed out at 1.5GB which is great. Another question is what are the best video cards for this computer, as mine seems to have the stock card and I'd like to put something higher in later on, if just for DVI.

Two more trivial questions, I was curious how the power of a 733MHz QS compares to say, an early 2003 12" PB at 867MHz. I do not recall whether there was much difference between mobile and desktop G4s. Second and last, what's in the hole in the front of this thing? It looks like a speaker to me, but I never confirmed this.

For now I ponder these questions as I eagerly anticipate receiving this. Haven't messed with a real desktop in a while; I miss them. Not a huge fan of working on laptops and especially newer iMacs.

 

[ervus]

Congrats on the new computer. The logic board may be limited to 120GB disks, but it depends which version you got. If it has the limit, you can make a boot partition that is 120 and then load a driver to access the remaining space as a separate partition. Or, you can connect the drive to a PCI card. An SSD would be a worthwhile upgrade, and you can connect one with a SATA-IDE adapter, or install a SATA PCI card and connect it to that. It's also easy to max out the RAM.

As for the CPU, the 733 is the low end and does not have L3 cache installed. It will not be a great performer compared to its contemporaries. You can look up old reviews, like at barefeats, where the 733 is about the same as the previous iteration of 533MHz G4 that used the 7410 chip. Fortunately there are a lot of options to upgrade the CPU.

The hole you're asking about is probably the speaker.

Good luck and let us know how you get on...

 

[Wild Hare]

I’ve several versions of both, MDDs and Quicksilvers. And while the MDDs are often regarded as the top of the proverbial heap… I really do like the Quicksilvers.

There are two similar motherboards for the Quicksilver, an A version and a B version. The B’s allow for larger HDs and are preferred. When it arrives, check for this printed on the mobo near the battery. Haven’t the actual Apple part number handy but it’ll either be a “dash” -A or dash -B. You might have an A board that only recognizes 128 GB of the 160 GB drive. Let’s hope it’s a B board… but you can still source B’s and swap them.

SSD upgrades are easy. Latest testing here found the RXD-629A7-7 adapters to be the favorite choice for me - but many of the 40 pin adapters work. I prefer the RXDs in instances where two SSDs are to be installed in the QS [and especially when compared to the more expensive StarTech (red) adapters]. See: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,5436.msg43799.html#msg43799 I think that link illustrates the MDD setup but later touches on the Quicksilver install too.

And yes, swap out the video card. Always thought the Apple Display Connector and those Apple monitors powered by the machine basically added undue power demand and stress on the PSUs (especially in the MDDs) so DVI cards here are a personal preference. *Not all will agree with this.

Don’t know about the comparison with the 867MHz PB but would assume the PB to be faster and System Bus Speed factors in too. You can upgrade from the 733 MHz CPU too.

*Just did a simple hack (first mentioned here around 2014) that’s intended to increase the Quicksilver’s System Bus Speed from 133 MHz to 150 MHz. Have yet to spend enough time with the hacked machine to determine actual improvement, but it does seem faster.

 

[eyoungren]

A few things that may (or may not) answer some of your questions. The Quicksilver is a good candidate for a PCI SATA card. Adding one in eliminates any 128GB limit and you can use SATA drives or SSDs. With a four-port card you can also replace the optical drive with a more modern SATA optical drive if you want.

Adding FW400/800 cards are also an option and you can get a USB dongle (I like Belkin) for Bluetooth 2.0.

The hole, as suggested, is for a speaker. Specifically, a Harmon Kardon speaker. The same as you'd find in the MDD. It's rather obvious with that shiny chrome bubble the speaker is known for, so I have to think it's missing because you asked about a 'hole'.

Graphics. At full loadout my QS was running a NVIDIA 6800 GT, a Radeon 9200 and a flashed Radeon 7000. Both Radeons will give you dual displays and the 7000 (if you can find a cheap, flashed one) is reliable and dependable.

The QS will take a Radeon 9800, but you need the card with the red logicboard (128mb) and it requires supplemental additional molex power. The NVIDIA 68000 GT is the best you can get for the QS. This is a rare card and hard to find though (lots for PC). And…it only works in a Quicksilver. I got mine from a forum member in the UK who was nice enough to send it to me as he couldn't use it any of his G4s that WEREN'T a Quicksilver.

Final thought: I don't expect you're going to try things with your QS that I did with mine. I was attempting to create a Mac with the ability of a G5 in both ports (FW400/8000, BT2.0, USB 2.0), drives (SATA), CPU (Sonnet Duet 1.8ghz DP), and graphics power (three video cards for six displays). I succeeded but only for short bits of time.

The thermal design of the Quicksilver is the same as the G3 and the other G4s that proceeded it. So, loading it out will eventually cause thermal issues. But if you keep your hand light you'll avoid all that. Both my G3 server and my G4 NAS have benefitted from all the problems I ran into with my QS.

Below though, is what's possible…

 

[retta283]

Thanks for the responses. This is part of what makes getting into this exciting for me, so many ways to proceed and upgrade this thing, I'm not limited in the same way I was with laptops or even my iMacs.

Good to know that the 160GB drive will at least be workable until I can install something else, just to run some tests with. I'm interested in the idea of a SATA card, if just to open up more modern drives without intermediate adapters, and overcoming the 128GB limit if mine has it. An IDE to SATA adapter will likely come regardless as I can reuse this elsewhere. I wouldn't mind a FW800 or USB 2 card if I can get my hands on one. RAM is already maxed.

I'll have to do a bit of research into GPUs. I know of some that can be flashed, but I've heard some require physical modifications to the card for it to work. I did briefly search and it seems like Mac-specific cards for this model are uncommon, at least on eBay. I think there are much better places to get these parts but I haven't found them yet.

One more question, I'd ideally like to remove the PRAM battery for a new one to avoid leakage, but I'm uncertain whether I need to keep the old one installed in the interim. I'd like to just remove it immediately, but I've heard mixed reports on whether it will work properly without any PRAM battery.

 

[ervus]

I found one of the old reviews on the 733 here:

Macintosh G4 Towers (D533, 733, 867, D800)

real world speed test results for performance minded Macintosh users

barefeats.com

So the difference between the "old" and "new" 733 is basically 1MB of L3 cache that the Digital Audio came with (and the low end Quicksilver did not).

That same site has reviews on various AGP graphics cards from the era. The main reason for a speedy GPU is games, and then you'd also want to upgrade the CPU for better game performance. For a GPU, I would suggest a re-flashed ATI 9800 Pro card. I have not looked recently, but a while back it was cheap/easy to get a PC card and modify/flash it to work in a Quicksilver. One of the nice things about this card is you can flash it in your mac, vs having to get a PC to perform the re-flash. You can also buy cards that have already been setup for Mac if you don't want to do it yourself. For example, the nvidia 6200 is a pretty decent card too.

I have never seen one of the lithium batteries leak. I think this was a problem with older ones. They do go dead though, and you lose the time if you unplug the machine. I have not had any problems running these computers with dead (or removed) batteries.

 

[eyoungren]

Thanks for the responses. This is part of what makes getting into this exciting for me, so many ways to proceed and upgrade this thing, I'm not limited in the same way I was with laptops or even my iMacs.

Good to know that the 160GB drive will at least be workable until I can install something else, just to run some tests with. I'm interested in the idea of a SATA card, if just to open up more modern drives without intermediate adapters, and overcoming the 128GB limit if mine has it. An IDE to SATA adapter will likely come regardless as I can reuse this elsewhere. I wouldn't mind a FW800 or USB 2 card if I can get my hands on one. RAM is already maxed.

I'll have to do a bit of research into GPUs. I know of some that can be flashed, but I've heard some require physical modifications to the card for it to work. I did briefly search and it seems like Mac-specific cards for this model are uncommon, at least on eBay. I think there are much better places to get these parts but I haven't found them yet.

One more question, I'd ideally like to remove the PRAM battery for a new one to avoid leakage, but I'm uncertain whether I need to keep the old one installed in the interim. I'd like to just remove it immediately, but I've heard mixed reports on whether it will work properly without any PRAM battery.

Removing the PRAM battery was one of the few things I did not do to my QS. No idea if it's removal will prevent it from working or not.

GPUs. The Radeon 9200 is actually a pretty good card. And ATI sold them in a Mac model. As I recall, I got mine off eBay for $15 including the original box.

 

[Project Alice]

A few things that may (or may not) answer some of your questions. The Quicksilver is a good candidate for a PCI SATA card. Adding one in eliminates any 128GB limit and you can use SATA drives or SSDs. With a four-port card you can also replace the optical drive with a more modern SATA optical drive if you want.

Adding FW400/800 cards are also an option and you can get a USB dongle (I like Belkin) for Bluetooth 2.0.

The hole, as suggested, is for a speaker. Specifically, a Harmon Kardon speaker. The same as you'd find in the MDD. It's rather obvious with that shiny chrome bubble the speaker is known for, so I have to think it's missing because you asked about a 'hole'.

Graphics. At full loadout my QS was running a NVIDIA 6800 GT, a Radeon 9200 and a flashed Radeon 7000. Both Radeons will give you dual displays and the 7000 (if you can find a cheap, flashed one) is reliable and dependable.

The QS will take a Radeon 9800, but you need the card with the red logicboard (128mb) and it requires supplemental additional molex power. The NVIDIA 68000 GT is the best you can get for the QS. This is a rare card and hard to find though (lots for PC). And…it only works in a Quicksilver. I got mine from a forum member in the UK who was nice enough to send it to me as he couldn't use it any of his G4s that WEREN'T a Quicksilver.

Final thought: I don't expect you're going to try things with your QS that I did with mine. I was attempting to create a Mac with the ability of a G5 in both ports (FW400/8000, BT2.0, USB 2.0), drives (SATA), CPU (Sonnet Duet 1.8ghz DP), and graphics power (three video cards for six displays). I succeeded but only for short bits of time.

The thermal design of the Quicksilver is the same as the G3 and the other G4s that proceeded it. So, loading it out will eventually cause thermal issues. But if you keep your hand light you'll avoid all that. Both my G3 server and my G4 NAS have benefitted from all the problems I ran into with my QS.

Below though, is what's possible…

View attachment 1848707

This is somewhat irrelevant to the thread but I am really curious. I assume you’re running Tiger or Leopard on that.
You have 3 video cards so 2 of them are PCI not AGP. How does that perform? Does QuartzExtreme work? I’ve never been able to enable QE on the PCI bus on 10.4.11. Both QE and CI work while booted into Leopard on my B&W but not Tiger.

 

[eyoungren]

This is somewhat irrelevant to the thread but I am really curious. I assume you’re running Tiger or Leopard on that.
You have 3 video cards so 2 of them are PCI not AGP. How does that perform? Does QuartzExtreme work? I’ve never been able to enable QE on the PCI bus on 10.4.11. Both QE and CI work while booted into Leopard on my B&W but not Tiger.

Well…the Mac is actually in pieces in the garage. I used it from 2014 to 2017 when I replaced it with a 2.3DC G5 and then shortly after that a Quad G5.

The Quicksilver was down more than it was running. I could have gotten around all that by just leaving the door down, but we have a cat..

Anyway, it was running Leopard and I had QE. It all worked just fine (when running).

@bunnspecial has claim on it when I can get the funds together to ship it to him.

 

[retta283]

I have a general fear of batteries in older electronics, but hopefully this will be fine. I just think of the Maxell bomb in the iMac G3 or the clock capacitor in original XBox systems. I have a habit to inspect my desktops regularly, so even if there is a leak I should catch it quickly.

Another thing I am waiting to see is if this machine will support using my 2006 MBP as a DVD drive over Target Disk Mode. This is how I was able to get the OSes onto my iMac G4, but I can't remember if all PPC Macs supported this or just some. I also had used a later version of Jaguar that was on a DVD to install, I think it was originally for iMacs but worked with a lot of others. Can't find it anymore on the Garden though, as I foolishly never saved the URL.

I am undecided as to whether I will bother with OS 9, I've never had good luck getting OS 9 installed on these especially with OS X already in place.

 

[Certificate of Excellence]

I have a general fear of batteries in older electronics, but hopefully this will be fine. I just think of the Maxell bomb in the iMac G3 or the clock capacitor in original XBox systems. I have a habit to inspect my desktops regularly, so even if there is a leak I should catch it quickly.

Another thing I am waiting to see is if this machine will support using my 2006 MBP as a DVD drive over Target Disk Mode. This is how I was able to get the OSes onto my iMac G4, but I can't remember if all PPC Macs supported this or just some. I also had used a later version of Jaguar that was on a DVD to install, I think it was originally for iMacs but worked with a lot of others. Can't find it anymore on the Garden though, as I foolishly never saved the URL.

I am undecided as to whether I will bother with OS 9, I've never had good luck getting OS 9 installed on these especially with OS X already in place.

The OS9 lives build has installed just fine on both of my quicksilvers, so if at any point you do need it, that is your ticket. Besides, the OS9L build has a cool vintage rainbow mac logo upgrade upon boot that pops against the gray background and that I always loved. I too am a huge fan of the QS. I have many others, but the QS is definitely a fav of mine in my collection and is my primary Q3A gaming machine - upgraded the single 2001 733mhz (rev B 820-1342) to a dual 1ghz with 2mb L3

and the stock gpu to a Radeon 64mb 9000 out of a dead parts MDD I have. Smooth as butter and kept me from investing in a more expensive gpu as the 9000 meets my Q3A and UT needs perfectly (High settings & FPS + QE support). I did have a 128gb SSD in it but opted for dual 40gb hdds in raid zero because it's era correct cool and I always liked the sound of tandem drives in a box. I did A/B raid vs SSD xbench results & SSD crushed Raid0 in score (as expected), but it didn't feel especially faster in use so I pushed the SSD to an Intel machine where I could take advantage of trim. The rest of this box is usual stuff, ie: usb bt2.0, usb2.0 pci, Dynex wireless g pci, fw isight usb zipdrive and some M6531 pro speakers since Ive got the midget jack in the back so why not.

 

[Wild Hare]

Don’t know about running without a battery “permanently” (doubtful) but they’re easy enough to pop out and replace with new ones. (And you can check whether it’s an A or B board while you’re at it.)

As for Jaguar / from the Garden, simple search “Jaguar” there.

And on “new” (to me) machines I always install OS 9.2.2 (see C of E’s above post) first on one partition (or drive) and an OS X version on the other.

 

[Amethyst1]

As for Jaguar, that was probably a 10.2.7 DVD image. Archive.org also holds a couple.

 

[z970]

For the record, any computer made in the 21st century, along with most 90s machines, can and will run without a PRAM / CMOS battery perfectly fine. The only downside is losing date and time / recorded BIOS settings upon unplugging the system. But it is technically a safer practice overall, especially for machines in long-term storage.

 

[bunnspecial]

For the record, any computer can and will run without a PRAM / CMOS battery perfectly fine. The only downside is losing date and time / recorded BIOS settings upon unplugging the system. But it is technically a safer practice overall, especially for machines in long-term storage.

I would amend this to "most."

The Mac II, for example, will not boot unless there are working PRAM batteries installed(and there are two of them). It's extra difficult on earlier revs as they are soldered to the board.

As far as the Quicksilver-

They are a great platform for upgrades, and I used one with a dual 1ghz CPU for a while. Note that if you use an Apple dual 1ghz card, the L3 cache will PROBABLY not work on a 733 LoBo. This turns into a significant real world speed/performance hit.

There's another superb GPU option-the Radeon FireGL X3 flashed to a Mac X800XT. For some reason, these are really touchy about working in Quicksilvers, but I can confirm that ones that will work do exist.

 

[Wild Hare]

Yes, if you don’t mind the following, and always resetting the clock/date… or keeping accurate track of file write dates (etc.). Leave the battery out.


Of course, always remove the battery for long term storage.

AND the Garden’s 10.2.7 (above) notes “Late 2003 or USB 2.0” - so maybe Quicksilver "A or B board" might come into play? The (non-DVD) Jaguar two disc downloads (#13 - #17) w/ updates to 10.2.8 /is also available from the Garden.

 

[Amethyst1]

AND the Garden’s 10.2.7 (above) notes “Late 2003 or USB 2.0” - so maybe Quicksilver "A or B board" might come into play?

Why would it?

 

[Certificate of Excellence]

As far as the Quicksilver-

They are a great platform for upgrades, and I used one with a dual 1ghz CPU for a while. Note that if you use an Apple dual 1ghz card, the L3 cache will PROBABLY not work on a 733 LoBo. This turns into a significant performance hit.

Has anyone ever figured out why L3 works on some 733 boards and not others? Difference in revision? I ask because I have used the same dual 1ghz duaghter card in both 2001 rev-a 620 1267 and rev-b 820-1342 quicksilver lobos without issue of L3 detection. Curious about where it's not working.

Maybe its not the lobo revision but rather a daughter card revision?

 

[Wild Hare]

“…might come into play.”

But, good question. And yet given that the 2002 Quicksilver’s had B boards and the stated date range & the USB 2.0 reqs. for the DVD… it’s Apple and what should work, sometimes does not.

And Apple / Mac isn’t supposed to be difficult… until it becomes difficult.

Two disk set mentioned merely as an option - in case of difficulties with the DVD.

 

[ervus]

Note that if you use an Apple dual 1ghz card, the L3 cache will PROBABLY not work on a 733 LoBo.

I have never seen this problem. I've used these CPUs in a variety of computers without any issues, including the AGP and Gigabit Ethernet towers:

Dual QS 800MHz CPU in a sawtooth

so i've been working on upgrading my 1st-generation Power Mac G4, which has a dual 500MHz G4 currently in it. I installed a SATA PCI card and i plugged the optical drives into the HDD IDE port on the board. i cut off the old optical drive IDE connector and now I need to find where I need 12V on...

forums.macrumors.com

The only problem I've seen was with an early version of the AGP that did not support Dual CPUs, and I think I only had to disable one CPU in open firmware for it to boot (with the L3). If the L3 is not working, then it's probably a bad CPU. The Apple dual G4 Quicksilver CPUs seem to run really hot and are prone to failure after cooking for years. I've swapped chips on boards with "dead" L3 and they work great.

The only other reason I can think of is if the firmware is too old to work with the 7450 (but I've never seen this).

 

[bunnspecial]

I have never seen this problem. I've used these CPUs in a variety of computers without any issues, including the AGP and Gigabit Ethernet towers:

Dual QS 800MHz CPU in a sawtooth

so i've been working on upgrading my 1st-generation Power Mac G4, which has a dual 500MHz G4 currently in it. I installed a SATA PCI card and i plugged the optical drives into the HDD IDE port on the board. i cut off the old optical drive IDE connector and now I need to find where I need 12V on...

forums.macrumors.com

The only problem I've seen was with an early version of the AGP that did not support Dual CPUs, and I think I only had to disable one CPU in open firmware for it to boot (with the L3). If the L3 is not working, then it's probably a bad CPU. The Apple dual G4 Quicksilver CPUs seem to run really hot and are prone to failure after cooking for years. I've swapped chips on boards with "dead" L3 and they work great.

The only other reason I can think of is if the firmware is too old to work with the 7450 (but I've never seen this).

I've done my fair share of CPU swapping as well. The fact that L3 doesn't work on lower end LoBos that didn't ship with L3 is something I've seen repeatedly.


BTW, I ran the dual 1ghz/no L3 for better than a year in an 800mhz QS2002(low end EDU model without L3). That card has been in numerous computers. The L3 never works in 733mhz or single 800mhz QSs, but works everywhere else I've used it.

 

[Certificate of Excellence]

I’ve heard this parroted from others that the education computer lab quicksilvers that Apple sold to colleges have this issue with L3 but I’ve never seen one to have the chance to verify and see what revision board it has. I just find it a neat quirk; then again Apple has done weirder things.

 

[WriteNow]

As for the battery, my QuickSilver works without it. Although I suppose there is a chance that some might not, given that there were two different boards.

I generally pull batteries from computers that I don't actively use, so that I don't have leaking battery problems. Some computers apparently do need those batteries--but I've not encountered that on anything I've had, to date. The only issue is that obviously the clock resets, and I think one generic PC was a bit cranky with wanting BIOS info verified or something. (Which was not hard--just a possible inconvenience.)

 

[WriteNow]

As for the video board, I just left mine alone--but have only used the VGA connector. Not ideal, but it worked. My big gripe with that board was that I used that machine for MintPPC. It was actually a daily driver for a while. It worked fine for a while--but a newer version of MintPPC didn't get along well with the video. It might have been fixable--certainly with a different video board--but I never pursued that, since I got a good deal on a generic PC, which wasn't as nice in some ways as the QuickSilver--but more practical with Linux.

 

[m1maverick]

As for the battery, my QuickSilver works without it. Although I suppose there is a chance that some might not, given that there were two different boards.

I generally pull batteries from computers that I don't actively use, so that I don't have leaking battery problems. Some computers apparently do need those batteries--but I've not encountered that on anything I've had, to date. The only issue is that obviously the clock resets, and I think one generic PC was a bit cranky with wanting BIOS info verified or something. (Which was not hard--just a possible inconvenience.)

An example is the early IBM PS/2s require the battery to retain the CMOS configuration. If it is disconnected / dead you will need to boot the computer from a configuration floppy. It's an easy fix (assuming the floppy drive is still functioning which many are not by now).