My iPad knows where I am!

[Stetrain]

How is this magical database of mac addresses and the GPS coordinates created? Does USWest magically report all of the Mac addresses to Apple?

This is nonsense. There is a GPS chip in the ipad.

I believe it's a mix of vehicles (think streetview) and permanent wifi receivers, and possibly iOS devices reporting back.

Fine, it's nonsense. Skyhook doesn't exist, they have no business model. Apple lies to customers, and the FCC with their invisible GPS chips. It's a conspiracy. You have refuted my formed argument with documentation and source links with your unsourced statements not backed up by anyone. You win.

 

[Intell]

How is this magical database of mac addresses and the GPS coordinates created? Does USWest magically report all of the Mac addresses to Apple?

This is nonsense. There is a GPS chip in the ipad.

Take a look at these two teardowns done of both models of the iPad. Pay attention to the extra communications board on the 3G model. It has the GPS chip on it, now note the WiFi only version lacks that chip.

The WiFi only: http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iPad-Wi-Fi-Teardown/2183/1

The 3G and WiFi: http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iPad-3G-Teardown/2374/1

Here is a direct quote on how the MAC database is made, it's from Skyhooks:

"To pinpoint location, Skyhook's Core Engine uses a massive reference network comprised of the known locations of over 250 million Wi-Fi access points and cellular towers. To develop this database, Skyhook has deployed drivers to survey every single street, highway, and alley in tens of thousands of cities and towns worldwide, scanning for Wi-Fi access points and cell towers plotting their precise geographic locations. Skyhook's extensive coverage area includes most major metro areas in North America, Europe, Asia, and Australia."

Source: http://www.skyhookwireless.com/howitworks/coverage.php

 

[occams razor]

Its just another way for the government to track you kinda like social security numbers, credit cards, cell phones, and electronic passports. Welcome to the 21st century. And we still cant find bin laden

 

[kdarling]

How is this magical database of mac addresses and the GPS coordinates created? Does USWest magically report all of the Mac addresses to Apple?

In Post 13 above, I explained how Apple's database was/is created.

I remember one person who was astonished that an iPad in a remote ranch home with a new WiFi router was able to find itself. He had forgotten that he'd already used his iPhone there, which of course reported the new hotspot back to the Apple mothership.

This is nonsense. There is a GPS chip in the ipad.

In the specs, Apple says GPS is only on the WiFi+3G model.

 

[Sparky9292]

I believe it's a mix of vehicles (think streetview) and permanent wifi receivers, and possibly iOS devices reporting back.

Fine, it's nonsense. Skyhook doesn't exist, they have no business model. Apple lies to customers, and the FCC with their invisible GPS chips. It's a conspiracy. You have refuted my formed argument with documentation and source links with your unsourced statements not backed up by anyone. You win.

I'm not saying Skyhook doesn't exist, it just can't be that accurate. My ipad reports exactly which room in my house I'm in. Even if the Router was tracked, then it would be a 100meter radius. There are nine different apartments around me.

All Ipads have a GPS chip end of story.

 

[Stetrain]

I'm not saying Skyhook doesn't exist, it just can't be that accurate. My ipad reports exactly which room in my house I'm in. Even if the Router was tracked, then it would be a 100meter radius. There are nine different apartments around me.

All Ipads have a GPS chip end of story.

Do you know what triangulation is? Sure, if it only looked at a single router then it would only know within 100 meters or so. Like you say, there are 9 different apartments around you and probably several WiFi routers. By using the exact signal strength to those routers it's possible to calculate a much more accurate position.

It's the same thing as the cell tower triangulation that the iPhone uses. If you've ever used a 3G iPad or iPhone you know that when you first ask for your location on Google Maps it shows a wider circle before it gets a GPS lock. That circle is based on your signal strength to three nearby cell towers. If it only used one tower, it could only pinpoint you within an area of several square miles, but by using three it can get a much more accurate position.

If you really knew about GPS you would know that it also uses triangulation. A signal from one GPS satellite isn't enough to tell where you are. Signals from multiple satellites are required to give an accurate position. Same with WiFi location.

And yes, you did imply that the whole skyhook thing was nonsense. We haven't been having a two-way debate about accuracy, so far you've just been dismissing everything anyone says without anything to back it up. You most recent post is an improvement (except for that last sentence, repeating it doesn't make it so).

 

[hitekalex]

I'm not saying Skyhook doesn't exist, it just can't be that accurate. My ipad reports exactly which room in my house I'm in. Even if the Router was tracked, then it would be a 100meter radius. There are nine different apartments around me.

All Ipads have a GPS chip end of story.

Sparky, are you really as dense as you appear, or just lack basic reading comprehension? iPad WiFi approximates location by _triangulating_ hotspots around, that are known by Apple database. It creates illusion of GPS, but it's not GPS. iPad WiFi does not have GPS chipset, as shown by FCC filing and numerous tear-down reports.

Do you get it now, or will you continue repeating your ignorant statements?

 

[Stetrain]

Sparky, are you really as dense as you appear, or just lack basic reading comprehension? iPad WiFi approximates location by _triangulating_ hotspots around, that are known by Apple database. It creates illusion of GPS, but it's not GPS. iPad WiFi does not have GPS chipset, as shown by FCC filing and numerous tear-down reports.

Do you get it now, or will you continue repeating your ignorant statements?

Apparently he's sure that Apple likes to decrease profit margins by paying extra money to put in a GPS chip without advertising it, rather than putting it on the same expansion board as the 3G chipset (as shown clearly in every iPad 3G teardown ever done) so that they don't have to pay the cost of the chip when producing WiFi-only units.

Yep, that's Apple exactly, all about those low profit margins and paying for things that they don't have to.


Also, here's some more reading material for Sparky: http://news.cnet.com/Wi-Fi-used-for-location-services/2100-7351_3-5754288.html

 

[notjustjay]

All Ipads have a GPS chip end of story.

Ok. I believe you.

All I ask is that you point to the photo of the iPad logic board in the iFixit teardown, and show me which chip is the GPS. What is the chipsets manufacturer? What is the model number?

Because from what I saw from examining the iFixit photos, the wifi only iPad is missing AN ENTIRE CIRCUIT BOARD compared to the 3G iPad. The wifi only iPad is missing both the 3G and GPS antennas. In place of all of those things, there is only empty space.

The circuit board that was NOT PRESENT in the wifi only iPad contained, according to iFixit, a Broadcom A-GPS chip. The BCM-4750.

Since you insist that the wifi only iPad DOES have GPS, it clearly can't be the Broadcom. There must be another one. And it clearly must use a different antenna, so well crafted that iFixit didn't even notice it. So where is it?

 

[Stetrain]

Here's a picture if the daughterboard specific to the iPad 3G models (source:iFixit)

According to iFixit, this board contains the following:

Apple soldered the EMI shield onto the communications board, making it challenging for us to show you the chips. Despite this adversity, we pressed forward undaunted, fearlessly unsoldering the board to reveal to you:
Infineon 337S3754 PMB 8878 X-Gold baseband IC 5Y06115. This part had the Infineon logo in the pre-production unit, but Apple has white-labeled it to obscure the manufacturer. This is the exact same baseband processor as the iPhone 3GS.
Skyworks SKY77340 Power Amplifier Module
Three Triquint power amplifier / filters.
Infineon U6952
Numonyx 36MY1EE
Along the right are three TriQuint power amplifiers: TQM616035A, TQM666032B, and TQM676031A. These are the same three chips that Apple used in the iPhone 3G nearly 2 years ago.
Broadcom A-GPS BCM47501UBG F01003 P11 949871 SN

(Emphasis mine)

If you look through their teardown of the iPad WiFi-only models you will notice that, while the mainboard is identical between WiFi and 3G models (with the small exception of the WiFi version not having the edge connector for the 3G daughterboard), the WiFi models does not contain the 3G daughterboard on which the GPS chip resides.

So, there's one more piece onto the stack of evidence that I and others have been providing. It would be very interesting indeed to see some actual trustworthy, physically verified information about the presence and whereabouts of a GPS chip in the WiFi model iPad.

Edit: if you view the "huge" version of the above photo from iFixit you can actually read the info on the GPS chip, which matches up with the chip number listed above:

 

[Matthew Yohe]

All Ipads have a GPS chip end of story.

Sparky, you may have a CCNP, but that has no bearing on what is or is not inside the WiFi iPad.

You're mistaken. I'm sorry.

I know someone just pointed to the hardware from iFixIt, and that should be enough evidence to make you listen, but if it isn't you need to just believe that it does not have GPS, because... it doesn't.

It strictly uses the WiFi hotspot dataset originally obtained by Skyhook wireless. Although as others have mentioned, it appears that Apple has in face moved on and established their own dataset.

 

[Matthew Yohe]

You pay for the data transfer.

Just a few bytes, of course, but still... basically Apple is using our paid data plan bytes to build up their database so they don't have to pay Skyhook.

I'm uncertain if this is correct. I assume that yes, Apple is doing as you say, and listening to the nearby wifi hotspots when someone requests a location, but that they are using the cellular data to transmit the data back seems less likely as it could really get Apple into some legal hot water if they were actually doing so. I would imagine they are at least doing so either when on wifi, or when synched with iTunes. But either way, the user is likely entitled to know when they are doing this. And the only time you are asked to send data back to Apple is when you connect to iTunes and it asks to send crash data.

 

[harcosparky]

<sarcasm=ON>

While you were driving around, figuring out how the iPad knew where you were, did you by chance notice those black helicopters flying overhead?

It's a government plot to keep tabs on your whereabouts!

<sarcasm=OFF>

Cool information and thanks for taking the time to look into it!!!!


THOUGHT/QUESTION:

First I think everyone knows that any cell phone, active or not, so long as it works can be used to call 911. So even if your provider cut you off for non-payment you could call for help in an emergency.

In the 3G iPad, even though I do not have a Data Plan the ATT Signal Strength is still indicated. Could the iPad also be using cell data to provide location information even though you are not on a data plan. The cell signal is always there, even though you cannot transmit data on it.




.

 

[Stetrain]

I wonder if Sparky has found the GPS chip in his iPad yet? I would definitely be interested in knowing the manufacturer and model number, and I'm sure many others would as well. It would probably even make the Macrumors front page!