My ONLY problem with apple...

[Soc7777777]

I love apples... i have researched the market and want an apple badly for college (powerbook or ibook)... well i have been waiting like no other for an update to their computers and eventually gave up today because i got an AMAZING deal through dell... the powerbook i wanted was the 12" combo.... with edu discount it looked like this

1ghz combo drive with 256 mb of memory airport extreme 40 gig hard drive and 3 year warrentee for 1721+tax + shipping (although i think shipping is free now)

now right now the dell i got is 300m Pentium M 1.2 Ghz w/ 30 gig hard drive b/g wireless card 256mb of pc2100 ddr memory, combo drive, and 4 year at home warrentee all for 1480 + 100 dollars in shipping and tax so 1580

So overall the powerbook will probibly cost 1800 dollars after tax so i woul dhave to spend 220 dollars more for a slower machine (i know quit yelling at me, i know its macs reliability and OS that make them great), and the dell is much much thinner and lighter (less and inch thick and less than 3lbs) and is also very stylish like the pbook... apple is going to wait themselves out of the going to college market for laptops if they wait any longer... many kids like me who are entering in their first year of college are going to buy a laptop... and updated them in late june and not shipping till july/august is TOO LATE for college buyers (most)... sorry, i know i will probibly be bashed... but i am very sad i didnt get an apple, but apple left me with no choice... (a 1.33 GHz 12" pbook might have changed the story if left for around the same price)... thats my 2.5 cents

 

[jxyama]

well, if dell suits your need, i think you got yourself a good deal.

personally, OS X and iApps make up for the difference in price.

hopefully, things will get updated by WWDC and apple will actually ship stuff in time for back to school sales.

addition: oh wait, optical drive is not internal... no wonder it's lighter and thinner.

 

[edesignuk]

I agree that that looks to be a very nice little laptop, and it will be faster than the iBook or PowerBook. One thing I would say though, there is a reason it is so thin, it has no built in optical drive, for that you have to put it in a docking station

 

[skinEman23]

I agree completely. I am about to buy a new laptop for college, although in my case a built in optical drive is a must (I'm looking at Gateway 200X's and Sony Z1's). I'm still waiting for apple to come out with a revision but if they let a seven month old laptop sit on their shelves without any price drop or upgrade, I might go to Gateway or Sony for a better deal. I would bet that quite a few students feel the same way we do.

 

[zamyatin]

I actually would expect the Dell to be slower than the Mac. Not only because Pentiums are not equivalent in each clock cycle to G4s, but also because they use a built-in system to slow the chip down to conserve battery power. The listed speed is its maximum attainable speed, most of the time it will not run that fast.

In any case, I don't even consider clock speed of computers anymore. RAM is what affects performance most, and 512 is a reasonable minimum. The graphics card will also be important, so keep that in mind.

In my experience, Mac laptops of equivalent specs are generally cheaper than Wintels, even Dells. (Does the Dell come with Windows XP Home? If so, you'll have to pay to upgrade to Professional if you want to use your college's LAN. Make sure to buy AntiVirus software, too.) Wintel boxes look cheap because they list the price for machines with CD-ROMs, without ethernet, too-little RAM, etc. When you raise the specs to get a usable system, the prices climb very high.

Good luck anyway! And, the smartest thing you can do is to download and use OpenOffice instead of Microsoft Office. Most college students are making the switch anyway (it's a hell of a lot cheaper, and that seems to be your key criteria, n'est pas?). Get it from www.openoffice.org and let us know how that goes for you.

 

[kidA]

the 300M is okay but does not have an internal optical drive, which is worth quite a bit.

i would not use openoffice instead of MSOffice because believe it or not there are still formatting issues, and it runs in X11 windows, meaning you can't global cut and paste into/out of it, which is a huuge PITA. if you're in school, most university b-stores can sell office for cheap (mine is $70 or so, others are as low as $5 or $7).

zamyatin is right about the clock speed. RAM is the biggest deal, and HD speed on a laptop makes a big difference too--faster boot times, etc, and apple doesn't offer an HD faster than 4200 rpm in the 12 inch PB. i don't don't whether or not dell offers one in the 300M. the Pentium M really is a good processor though. it would probably not be noticeably faster at 1.2 GHz than a 1.0 GHz G4 if at all.

zamyatin is not right about needing XP Pro to access a university network though. you'd be just fine with XP Home. the main difference is with network hosting--you can only host up to 5 machines with home--and XP home would not be allowed into some kinds of very controlled, private, corporate networks. but it will work just fine for accessing a university network--surfing the internet, accessing personal webspace if they give it to you, etc.

 

[Inspector Lee]

So overall the powerbook will probibly cost 1800 dollars after tax so i woul dhave to spend 220 dollars more for a slower machine (i know quit yelling at me, i know its macs reliability and OS that make them great), and the dell is much much thinner and lighter (less and inch thick and less than 3lbs) and is also very stylish like the pbook... apple is going to wait themselves out of the going to college market for laptops if they wait any longer... many kids like me who are entering in their first year of college are going to buy a laptop... and updated them in late june and not shipping till july/august is TOO LATE for college buyers (most)... sorry, i know i will probibly be bashed... but i am very sad i didnt get an apple, but apple left me with no choice... (a 1.33 GHz 12" pbook might have changed the story if left for around the same price)... thats my 2.5 cents

I completely understand your frustration. There is nothing worse than having to play the waiting game with $$$ in hand. However, if I were in your shoes, I'd cancel the Dell order and wipe the thought of purchasing a laptop from your head for about a week. If, after a week, you still want to go with the Dell then by all means. However, I get the impression that you really want a Mac and the lack of updates is taking its toll on your psyche (understandably).

For starters, cut the $349 warranty off the price tag. You will get 90 days of phone support and a year of coverage right out of the gate. 10-11 months from now you can pick up the AppleCare if you choose. I'd take that $349 and boost the HD and RAM.

Also, take into consideration what others are saying. Optical drive, XP Home, etc. You will have to purchase Virus Scan for the life of the computer and that is easily a C-Note.
This is a hidden cost and viruses can wreak havoc on a college campus.

The 12" PB weighs 4.6 lbs. I carry my TiBook (5.4 lbs) everywhere on campus and don't feel a thing.

You didn't say what you would be using your laptop for specifically. If you want something to throw in your bag and haul around, maybe take lecture notes, type papers, surf, etc., the iBook is a fantastic little machine at a significantly lower price than the 12"PB. You could max it out and get an iPod for the same price as a 12"PB.

Picture yourself next fall, after PB updates AND Dell updates, will you be happy with your decision? Either way, having the latest and greatest doesn't last forever.

In sum, and I apologize for the grandstanding, I was on the phone with Gateway in December 2002 ready to place my order and I got the yips. I hung up the phone, waited 24 hours and purchased a powerbook. And the rest is history.

Best of luck,

I. Lee

 

[dudeami]

I would have to agree, I don't think that laptop would be as fast as the Powerbook. I use a 1.2 GHz Windows laptop running XP, and it is not even as fast as my iBook. That's just a real world comparison between two of the machines I use, but I really do think that the 1 GHz Powerbook running Panther runs and feels much faster then the pentium laptops in that speed range. Besides getting a faster and more reliable machine plus great software in the powerbook for that extra 220 you also would have gotten a larger harddrive. That's my two cents, but I have worked on both of the machines you are talking about.

 

[edesignuk]

I actually would expect the Dell to be slower than the Mac. Not only because Pentiums are not equivalent in each clock cycle to G4s, but also because they use a built-in system to slow the chip down to conserve battery power.

This is a Pentium Mobile processor, the same as used in Centrino lines. This will piss all over the 1GHz G4 in a 12" PB. The Mobile processor is greatly improved over previous mobile P4's which needed the clock speed. This Centrino will be easily equal to that of a 2GHz+ desktop P4 (for most operations), which of course is heaps faster that a 1GHz G4.

 

[jxyama]

This is a Pentium Mobile processor, the same as used in Centrino lines. This will piss all over the 1GHz G4 in a 12" PB. The Mobile processor is greatly improved over previous mobile P4's which needed the clock speed. This Centrino will be easily equal to that of a 2GHz+ desktop P4 (for most operations), which of course is heaps faster that a 1GHz G4.

yeah, it's a common misunderstanding. intel's partly to blame for having three very similar chip names: Pentium 4, Pentium 4-M, Pentium M.

Pentium 4 is the desktop chip. Pentium 4-M is the adapted version for laptops. Pentium M is the newest chip, a part of Centrino. Pentium M is much faster than the other two if at the same clockspeed.

 

[ginner]

Try being British.

The price disparity of Apple products compared to other countries or other brands within this country is even wider. As a student essentially all of their products are well out of my spending range.

 

[Nny]

i would not mind lack of updates if Apple could provide a public hardware/software roadmap like other tech companies.

that's all i ask.

 

[wPod]

the IT industry thanks you!

wintell laptops are no good! the intel chips pull too much power and the battery life always stinks! how prortable is it when you have to constantly be within 6ft of a power outlet? also the external optical drive stinks :-( not to mention the typical windows complaints. though i guess the good thing about a wintel machine is that you will be supporting the pocket books of many IT workers! if everyone owned a mac then probably half of the IT industry would be out of business b/c all of the computers would be too reliable!

So, on behalf of the IT industry (i worked M$ IT a few years ago) thank you for your support!!!!

 

[edesignuk]

wintell laptops are no good! the intel chips pull too much power and the battery life always stinks! how prortable is it when you have to constantly be within 6ft of a power outlet? also the external optical drive stinks :-( not to mention the typical windows complaints. though i guess the good thing about a wintel machine is that you will be supporting the pocket books of many IT workers! if everyone owned a mac then probably half of the IT industry would be out of business b/c all of the computers would be too reliable!

So, on behalf of the IT industry (i worked M$ IT a few years ago) thank you for your support!!!!

You should read up on things before you speak, the new Intel technologys make the battery life of Centrino/P-M based laptops excellent. He will not be needing a power outlet all the time

 

[jxyama]

i would not mind lack of updates if Apple could provide a public hardware/software roadmap like other tech companies.

that's all i ask.

that's actually asking for quite a bit.

what is the difference between roadmap and updates? jobs already gave a roadmap - at WWDC last year, he said 3 GHz G5 in a year.

do you seel dell giving out roadmap? hp? intel gives you a very vague roadmap on where the chips are headed but they are a lot more of a technical roadmap than product roadmap...

 

[jxyama]

wPod is right that IT admin, desktop support and anti-virus companies would be significantly affected if Macs took off. if Macs gained popularity, i'm sure there'll be more virus attacks and incrased demand for Mac technical expertise, but i am not sure if they will be the same level as they are with Windows.

afterall, the inherent vulnerability of an OS doesn't depend on the popularity.

 

[edesignuk]

what is the difference between roadmap and updates? jobs already gave a roadmap - at WWDC last year, he said 3 GHz G5 in a year.

heh, and can you see Apple making the jump from 2GHz to 3GHz in just 2 short months? That's what's gonna have to happen for Steve-o to keep his promise.

do you seel dell giving out roadmap? hp? intel gives you a very vague roadmap on where the chips are headed but they are a lot more of a technical roadmap than product roadmap...

True enough, but then you know these companies will update their product lines frequently anyway.

 

[jxyama]

True enough, but then you know these companies will update their product lines frequently anyway.

right... so much so that you don't know when changes are made. i think the fact apple seems "slow" is because:

1) it is periodic in updating, rather than continuous
2) there are more eager people following each update
3) and those eager people actually voice their opinion about how slow apple is after each and every update (well, that and the fact there are places like MR where those voice gets heard.)



it probably is really "slow." it makes for a better rumor site but in practicality, i don't see what the big deal is. except for really, REALLY big announcements, like the G5, i don't see how updates really make much of a difference. i tend to believe that most people complaining about waiting forever for the dual 2.4 GHz G5 are Mac fans - in the meantime, people who have things to do have bought their dual 2 G5 months ago and are too busy working with it.

the only reason people hold out for apple to update (and hence complain when updates don't happen quickly enough) is because it's not continuous like dell or HP. people just buy dells and HPs because they know their machine will be updated very quickly - so people don't wait. people know there's no way to get their money's worth because of continuous updates.

for apple, you feel like you get more of your money's worth if you buy right after an update because you know it's gonna be a while before something else better comes out.

i guess it's a different philosophy.

 

[1macker1]

Yeah I think it's a negative that apple doesn't have a road map so that people buying new Macs won't get sideswiped. Most people will say, "If you know what you want then get it and be happy." But from some (people like me), we dont plan on buying macs every upgrade, and want to get the newest computer so it will last longer. I'm waiting for the G5 powerbooks, and i atleast want some type of info about when I can expect these machines.

 

[zamyatin]

the 300M is okay but does not have an internal optical drive, which is worth quite a bit.

i would not use openoffice instead of MSOffice because believe it or not there are still formatting issues, and it runs in X11 windows, meaning you can't global cut and paste into/out of it, which is a huuge PITA. if you're in school, most university b-stores can sell office for cheap (mine is $70 or so, others are as low as $5 or $7).

zamyatin is right about the clock speed. RAM is the biggest deal, and HD speed on a laptop makes a big difference too--faster boot times, etc, and apple doesn't offer an HD faster than 4200 rpm in the 12 inch PB. i don't don't whether or not dell offers one in the 300M. the Pentium M really is a good processor though. it would probably not be noticeably faster at 1.2 GHz than a 1.0 GHz G4 if at all.

zamyatin is not right about needing XP Pro to access a university network though. you'd be just fine with XP Home. the main difference is with network hosting--you can only host up to 5 machines with home--and XP home would not be allowed into some kinds of very controlled, private, corporate networks. but it will work just fine for accessing a university network--surfing the internet, accessing personal webspace if they give it to you, etc.

He bought a Dell! I'm talking about OpenOffice on Windows, here. But for the rest of us on Macs, the best version of OOo to use at the moment is NeoOffice/Java, which does not require X11. (www.neooffice.org/java/) It's not pretty, but it does support global cut-and-paste in OSX. It also liberates you from the MS Word and MS Office file formats, which lock your data into a black box which no one outside MS HQ is able to wholly understand. The OpenOffice file formats are an XML file compressed with zip. If one needs to be opened but OOo is unavailable, you can simply unzip with a file compression/decompression utility and get to your XML and plain text data inside. It's extremely important for data formats to be open! Even if MS Office were cheaper than OpenOffice (if they paid us to take it), it would not be a better deal because of the loss of control over your own data.

I was not clear about the network access with WXP Home. Yes, you can get internet access. No, you cannot access other students' computers that share data on the campus network nor allow them to access yours. This is an intentional crippling of the software to differentiate the two versions (Home/Pro) and to force companies to buy the more expensive of them. (I have not used either in a while, though. Good for me!)

 

[legion]

Try being British.

I tried that once... it just didn't take.

(you know, in those "experimental" college years... )

 

[jxyama]

your thread started with "My ONLY problem with apple..."

i think the problem many people have is thinking that "getting a Mac" is the same thing as "getting another computer."

to me, other computers are no substitutes. not even close. a Mac is a Mac and nothing else is.

it's almost a cult-like experience - because for many (not all), a Mac allows them to do things they didn't even know they've always wanted to do. (get it?)

if you wanted to purchase a sports car, would you look at pick-up trucks with similar engine and lower price to be an option?

good luck with your dell and i hope you enjoy it. but i do think you missed out on a great experience for relatively small amount of money.

 

[Rincewind42]

If I'm not mistaken, the 300m only comes with integrated graphics, so the video uses system RAM, so for anything video it wouldn't be able to compete with the PowerBook. That by itself could be worth the $200 to you.

 

[yuc7zhd2]

Is the PowerBook price you listed the EDU discount price? If not, you'd do well to check the education discounted price. Also, the iBook is a good option for a fraction of the price of both the PowerBook and the Dell. I just hate to see someone who wants to buy an Apple skimp out on one. I did the same thing back in 97 when I was going to buy an iMac, but no local retailers carried them, and my dad wouldn't order online. I got an HP and regretted it for 6 years until i got my PowerBook. If Apple doesn't float your boat though, go for whatever you want, I'm not into Apple snobbery.

 

[Soc7777777]

My response

I'd like to say a few things... first of all the prices i gave were edu pricing... second i would like to have waited for an ibook (or powerbook), but i dont know when apple is going to get on the ball and get things done... the reason i am getting my computer so early is so that i have it before the end of my senior year because there is alot of software i can get for free through school that i wouldnt be able to get after school is let out (Office 2k3 pro, XP pro, Office Vx Mac and other programs like that).... thats why i said apple is waiting theirselves out of the edu market.... April-June/maybe july is when most students buy their computers... they will buy even earlier if they are switching to a new platform so they can get used to the new OS

second of all i have been and still am planning on buying a powerbook G5 in about 2-2.5 years from this moment... i am becoming a computer science major so i will PROBIBLY need an apple for the advanced classes (3rd and 4th year)... so i decided that i should plan on buying another computer before junior year anyway... so i am going to choose apple eventually (i think they are supperior machines for the same price range)

All i was trying to say is that apple is losing alot of business from students like me... (i know macs are better, but i am not loyal to apple)... if apple doesnt release a new powerbook AND ibook BEFORE june 15th or so (when most seniors have already recieved a graduation present, many times a computer), then apple will have lost alot of business for those lines.

My complaint is that i assume the next powerbook revision is not a G5, so, why is it taking them this long to update the powerbook. My suggestions to apple:

Reduce prices as machines get older, even if they dont come with an update at the same time (i would have bought a powerbook had it been 150 less)

The ibook should come with 256x1MB memory built in and the powerbook should start with 512x1MB

AIRPORT SHOULD BE STANDARD FOR BOTH... this is a huge deal for students (ibook) AND professionals (powerbook)... this way it would be cheeper to put cards in the machines if they knew that one was coming in every machine

this may sound like a crazy idea, but for students off AN ADDITIONAL 100 dollars off per computer from edu price if you get 5 or more people to buy the same computer as u at the same time (this would promote mac wannabes to go and preach to other people and have good incentive)

BETTER BATTERY... easyer said than done... but this can be said for ALL computers (save maybe ibm with their good battery on the x40)... portable users can NEVER have enough battery life

offer accidental warreentee options where people who are accident prone can have their machines replaced if they have a spill or something... this is a good way to charge some not so intelligent people more money for a computer and piece of mind...

FINALLY, MAKE MEMORY UPGRADES A DECENT PRICE.... buying more ram through apple is financial suicide...