My PC friend and his complaints with Macs

[Macmaniac]

Well we all have em, my friend is an ardent PC user, he is all into Linux, and used to be a windows lover, but Linux converted him. However he despises Macs. Well since we are friends we have frequent arguments about Macs however he knows way more about programming then I know( he wrote his own OS) So here are some his complaints, I wonder if you have answers.
1. Macs crash way too much under OS X, of course I know that OS X is stable however he is convinced that OS X is the worst version os UNIX ever, one problem I have with this argument is that our schools Macs don't to well exhibiting OS X's stability. We use iMovie, FCP, and QT a lot and whenever we run programs on them they crash, and crash often. So of course this only convinces my friend even more.
2. Macs are poor at multi-tasking, he complains to me whenever he runs multiple programs on our schools macs. Running iMovie and QT at the same time results in slow performance and crashes and he chides OS X for ruining the best part of UNIX which is well known for its multitasking.
3. When ever we try and move or export large files the Macs bomb, so of course this is more ammo for him.
4. He hates that you can't have two QT programs open at once, or two Internet explorer programs open at the same time. On windows he boasts how he can have 5 individual Word programs open at the same.(This does not mean 5 windows, but 5 individual Word programs open at the same time) This again he says shows why Mac OS has ruined UNIX
5. His favorite argument has to be that all Apple cares about is making "pretty computers" while using bad software and hardware, he hates that eMacs and iMac's are not expandable, and he thinks its ridiculous that you have to pay $2000 on the Apple platform to get expandability.
So as you can see I'm in a tight spot, he makes some good arguments, so what can I tell him to convince him other wise. Please be specific, he knows his techno talk well.

 

[varmit]

how old are the macs

Well we all have em, my friend is an ardent PC user, he is all into Linux, and used to be a windows lover, but Linux converted him. However he despises Macs. Well since we are friends we have frequent arguments about Macs however he knows way more about programming then I know( he wrote his own OS) So here are some his complaints, I wonder if you have answers.
1. Macs crash way too much under OS X, of course I know that OS X is stable however he is convinced that OS X is the worst version os UNIX ever, one problem I have with this argument is that our schools Macs don't to well exhibiting OS X's stability. We use iMovie, FCP, and QT a lot and whenever we run programs on them they crash, and crash often. So of course this only convinces my friend even more.
2. Macs are poor at multi-tasking, he complains to me whenever he runs multiple programs on our schools macs. Running iMovie and QT at the same time results in slow performance and crashes and he chides OS X for ruining the best part of UNIX which is well known for its multitasking.
3. When ever we try and move or export large files the Macs bomb, so of course this is more ammo for him.
4. He hates that you can't have two QT programs open at once, or two Internet explorer programs open at the same time. On windows he boasts how he can have 5 individual Word programs open at the same.(This does not mean 5 windows, but 5 individual Word programs open at the same time) This again he says shows why Mac OS has ruined UNIX
5. His favorite argument has to be that all Apple cares about is making "pretty computers" while using bad software and hardware, he hates that eMacs and iMac's are not expandable, and he thinks its ridiculous that you have to pay $2000 on the Apple platform to get expandability.
So as you can see I'm in a tight spot, he makes some good arguments, so what can I tell him to convince him other wise. Please be specific, he knows his techno talk well.

They could be running 10.0 or 10.1, which were problematic. 10.2 got better, but 10.3 is the best. Take hime to apple store or compusa, have him use the latest macs, then ask him if they are worth the price, and if he has any sence, and knowledge about pricing for the same hardware, he will say buy it.

And what are you talking about you could only have one word document, or QT window. Tell him internet explorer can have multiple windows. Are you sure you are even using 10. File, New Window.

 

[7on]

I'll try and help


1. Macs crash way too much under OS X, of course I know that OS X is stable however he is convinced that OS X is the worst version os UNIX ever, one problem I have with this argument is that our schools Macs don't to well exhibiting OS X's stability. We use iMovie, FCP, and QT a lot and whenever we run programs on them they crash, and crash often. So of course this only convinces my friend even more.
Sounds to me like the school's systems are taxing their procs/RAM. And/or corrupted prefs. I haven't had a corrupted pref in a long time now that I think about it. OSX is just as stable as UNIX/Linux or whatever. Then again OSX has the use of commercial apps. Things Linux can't have. And commercial apps tend to crash a lot. Moreso that freeware/opensource stuff in my experience. OSX is stable because one program can crash and the system stays running. What your friend is talking about is program stability and that various from app to app.



2. Macs are poor at multi-tasking, he complains to me whenever he runs multiple programs on our schools macs. Running iMovie and QT at the same time results in slow performance and crashes and he chides OS X for ruining the best part of UNIX which is well known for its multitasking.
Again, slow lab computers. My 1Ghz G4 TiBook (in sig) has remained flawless through scanning/editing/printing pictures all while I have VPC open and running LC4 (hash decryption). The Multi-taskiness of OSX still surprises me one year after I've boughten my book.


3. When ever we try and move or export large files the Macs bomb, so of course this is more ammo for him.
Old Mac, or corrupted hdd.

4. He hates that you can't have two QT programs open at once, or two Internet explorer programs open at the same time. On windows he boasts how he can have 5 individual Word programs open at the same.(This does not mean 5 windows, but 5 individual Word programs open at the same time) This again he says shows why Mac OS has ruined UNIX
You can't run multiple Word apps in Windows. You can on the Mac. Just make a copy of the App and run the copy. Two of the same apps running at the same time.

5. His favorite argument has to be that all Apple cares about is making "pretty computers" while using bad software and hardware, he hates that eMacs and iMac's are not expandable, and he thinks its ridiculous that you have to pay $2000 on the Apple platform to get expandability.
eMacs and iMacs aren't expandable due to the market of consumer their aimed at
eMacs = education. Not many schools upgrade separate components. Usually it's the whole computer.
iMacs = The average household doesn't want to have to fiddle inside the computer to make it work. I know maybe 5 people outside the internet that fiddle with computer insides for hobby/fun. Not the average user.
The PowerMac can be upgraded.
Bad software? Panther got best OS in PC World (or something) for 2004. Despite being released in 2003. FinalCutPro is becoming a household name in the video industry quickly overshadowing Premiere.
Bad Hardware? Tell that to my professor who still uses a Quadra and a B/W as his only computers. And he teaches graphic design. Apple has the best hardware of most computer manufactors. First with SCSI? Fist with USB? First with Firewire? First use of GUI? First personal computer? Keeping mind being the first 'successful' use of these.

 

[ftaok]

4. He hates that you can't have two QT programs open at once, or two Internet explorer programs open at the same time. On windows he boasts how he can have 5 individual Word programs open at the same.(This does not mean 5 windows, but 5 individual Word programs open at the same time) This again he says shows why Mac OS has ruined UNIX

Even though you can open multiple instances of the same program, it doesn't really matter. Who cares if I open 2 IE sessons. When a website's coding crashes IE, all open sessions of IE go down.

What's the advantage of opening 5 Word sessions?

 

[krimson]

This may not work for you, but I just let my MS Zealot friends ramble on and on. When they're done with their bashing, tirad and rantings, i simply say,
"When you give me $$$ to buy a PC that's up to par in your opinion, replace all my programs (legally). That's when you can dictate what computer I use, and how I use it."
That usually shuts up everyone except the die-hards, for them I ask if they've ever sat down and really used it for a few days. 90% of the time, they'll say "No, but I've read *insert PC Mag*'s article.. blah blah." I tell them to use my G4 for a while.
If that's still doesn't shut them up, then I start telling them how to live their lives. Whenever I can, as often as I can.

 

[PlaceofDis]

This may not work for you, but I just let my MS Zealot friends ramble on and on. When they're done with their bashing, tirad and rantings, i simply say,
"When you give me $$$ to buy a PC that's up to par in your opinion, replace all my programs (legally). That's when you can dictate what computer I use, and how I use it."
That usually shuts up everyone except the die-hards, for them I ask if they've ever sat down and really used it for a few days. 90% of the time, they'll say "No, but I've read *insert PC Mag*'s article.. blah blah." I tell them to use my G4 for a while.
If that's still doesn't shut them up, then I start telling them how to live their lives. Whenever I can, as often as I can.

LoL awesome approach, i love it, im going to have to start doing this

 

[Crikey]

Sorry to hear that the Macs at your school are so messed up. It's hard to argue with someone who is having the kinds of user experiences your friend is having. Are the Macs old? What version of MacOS do they run? I've never seen any Mac running OS X that is as unreliable as you describe.

It also sounds like your friend is just bigoted about computers, and no matter how logical your arguments you are unlikely to change his mind. Personally, I wouldn't waste my breath trying. He likes what he likes; you like what you like. No problem, eh?

If he's hassling you about why you like Macs, just tell him you think the user experience is superior. "They are more fun to use." If you say anything at all; you aren't required to justify your preferences to anyone.

Cheers,


Crikey

 

[mkrishnan]

Even though you can open multiple instances of the same program, it doesn't really matter. Who cares if I open 2 IE sessons. When a website's coding crashes IE, all open sessions of IE go down.

What's the advantage of opening 5 Word sessions?

I thought that this *was* the specific advantage. I thought if you run multiple instances in the newer versions of Windows, rather than doing "file/new window" you were crash protected. Not true?

 

[Macmaniac]

Ok here is a follow up on the post. The Macs we are using are 800mhz eMac's running 10.2. The eMacs are not on the school network and are only used for video editing. A sad thing about the local computer stores is that when my friend went their he actually visited the Apple department wing of the store, and got the salesmen to admit that Mac's were inferior. Kinda depressing considering these guys are on the front lines selling Macs
I know I will never change his mind, but it always comes up in our talk.
Whats also unfortunate is that FCP is unstable on our computers and crashes often on the eMacs making him scoff at it when I refer to it as a pro app.
I have actually raised the point that since they are school computers weird stuff happens to them when stupid people use them, however he does not buy into that argument, because in his words, "If Mac OS was so great then it would be able to handle this kind of situation."

Please post more replies this is interesting.

 

[bousozoku]

Those machines should be running 10.2.8 since mostly anything prior to 10.2.6 was troubled with various problems. 10.2.6 wasn't that great but most things ran successfully, which is why I recommend 10.2.8.

I've seen lab technicians mess up anything. They figure out just enough to get things to work and then, make that the standard installation.

I wonder if they've applied application updates since there were plenty of those too and they always make a big difference.

The only problem I can imagine with the hardware is that there isn't enough RAM and the disk drives are slow. That shouldn't really destabilise the machines but just make them dreadfully slow.

 

[ChrisH3677]

everyone has the right to be wrong

dude... you don't need to say nuthin. It's the old "When you know that you know that you know" situation. Just shrug as if to say, "Your arguments aren't worth arguing." I mean, who still would waste their breath arguing against someone who says the world is flat?

You don't need to defend Macs against Wintels and definitely not against Linuxes. We all know Mac is superior in most areas. If he is too narrow minded to look at it objectively, then don't waste your breath arguing. He'll get the message - and that will bug him even more. Coz he'll realise that Macs are so good they don't need defending!

And if he pushes you too much, just hit him with "Hey, it's ok, you have the right to be wrong."

I used to defend Macs too, but have found the say nothing approach much more effective.

Others have answered the tech questions. Your school really needs to find the budget to upgrade OSX to Panther, or possibly Tiger when it's bedded down. Panther leaves Jaguar in it's dust as far as stability goes.

PS Another trick to get the msg across...Try giving your buddy a nickname like "Flatty" (as in flat-earther). So everytime he says "Macs are crap" just respond, "That's ok Flatty, you believe whatever you like."

Ah another PS... Programmers know NOTHING about computers! And even less about users.

 

[Capt Underpants]

dude... you don't need to say nuthin. It's the old "When you know that you know that you know" situation. Just shrug as if to say, "Your arguments aren't worth arguing." I mean, who still would waste their breath arguing against someone who says the world is flat?

You don't need to defend Macs against Wintels and definitely not against Linuxes. We all know Mac is superior in most areas. If he is too narrow minded to look at it objectively, then don't waste your breath arguing. He'll get the message - and that will bug him even more. Coz he'll realise that Macs are so good they don't need defending!

And if he pushes you too much, just hit him with "Hey, it's ok, you have the right to be wrong."

I used to defend Macs too, but have found the say nothing approach much more effective.

Others have answered the tech questions. Your school really needs to find the budget to upgrade OSX to Panther, or possibly Tiger when it's bedded down. Panther leaves Jaguar in it's dust as far as stability goes.

PS Another trick to get the msg across...Try giving your buddy a nickname like "Flatty" (as in flat-earther). So everytime he says "Macs are crap" just respond, "That's ok Flatty, you believe whatever you like."

Ah another PS... Programmers know NOTHING about computers! And even less about users.

I have never found the say nothing approach to be effective. Usually you have to say something in return, or their argument is considered infallible. I would just say that until he has the chance to use a mac that has not been used by stupid, computer illiterate students, he can have no right to judge them.

Also.... he believes just as strongly in linux as you do in the Mac. You are both steadfast, and it doesn't seem that either of your minds are going to be changed. Maybe you should try making him watch last year's WWDC keynote. That shows off alot of cool panther stuff that he probably doesn't know about. that, or even better yet, you should watch this year's WWDC keynote. There should be some cool stuff there.

 

[KingSleaze]

I believe others have made enough of the tech problems of 10.2. Hard drive corruption and limited RAM would answer for some of the others.

Your friends assertion about opening Word 5 times on his Linux box is (to me) a bunch of bullsh**. Unless the application has been bought 5 times, Microshaft has it check for multiple openings/copies. I can more readily believe one app/multiple windows (this is acceptable to Microshaft).

iMac and eMac ARE expandable. The user can easily upgrade the memory. Harddrives can be added via USB or Firewire. What else would he like to add? Is it ESSENTIAL that whatever he wants to add, be installed internally?

Since he seems to be biased and not willing to change, the other solution given, I agree, is the best one. Ignore his rants.

 

[Mav451]

...
Ah another PS... Programmers know NOTHING about computers! And even less about users.

Actually, that applies to the PC side as well. Can't tell you how many programmers I bump into who are TRYING to build a system, but don't really get it *_*

Hardware/Software. I have yet to meet someone who is as good a tweaker/builder as they are a programmer.

 

[slipper]

your never gonna please everybody, just let him be his naive self.

 

[blue&whiteman]

However he despises Macs.

did macs kill his mother or something? I will never understand why so many have this auto anti-mac way about them. off to buddhist hell with all of them!

 

[5300cs]

- double post - SORRY !

 

[5300cs]

Opening up multiple instances of Word or IE does nothing but steal more memory and system resources, if he really *did* know technical things, he would know that this is stupid, not an advantage. Let's not even go into the reasons why someone shouldn't use IE. If he's talking about IE, he doesn't sound like much of a Linux person.

Linux is not superior to OS X, sorry. He can be as arrogant as he wants, but Linux lacks some important commercial apps (Photoshop, for example.
The GIMP just doesn't cut it.) Linux is not a viable option for the so called "Digital Lifestyle", applications in OS X like iMovie, iDVD & iPhoto. I've never heard of anyone editing video on Linux.

And if Linux is such a fantastic OS, why do you sometimes have to recompile your kernel to get certain hardware support? Can your average Joe sit down and install Gentoo Linux? What about the HURD? When is that going to come into existence?

Linux is good for certain things and is by no means a weak OS (it's a hell of a lot better than m$ will ever come up with) but Linux facists bashing Macs are old news and stuck in the past. They think Mac and cannot look past the old happy Mac icon when the machine starts up and think we're all idiots. True Linux people have already woken up and seen what Apple has done with it's OS & hardware and live and let live.

Or if you want to piss him off, ask him if he has a girlfriend, or how many times he's posted to /. in the past 24 hours.

 

[j_appel]

I have to admit, I used to hate Macs. I used to say really stupid stuff about them too. Things like, "Why would I use a computer that has a logo with a bite taken out of it. That must mean the computer has something missing." Stupid stuff like that. I'm just glad I saw the light, and now I can't stand PCs. I've had a few people tell me how stupid Macs are, and when they try to start an argument with me I just say, "Whatever." They then usually leave me alone about it.

 

[ChrisH3677]

4. He hates that you can't have two QT programs open at once, or two Internet explorer programs open at the same time. On windows he boasts how he can have 5 individual Word programs open at the same.(This does not mean 5 windows, but 5 individual Word programs open at the same time) This again he says shows why Mac OS has ruined UNIX

I'd like to see these 5 word programs running. I can't do it on my Windows systems. When I click on the Word icon in the programs menu, it opens another document and displays it individually on the taskbar and calls them "Document 1", "Document 2", "Document 3", "Document 4", "Document 5". I can change that behaviour by going to the Word menu "Tools" then "Options" then the "View" tab, then untick "Windows in Taskbar".

Try this on your friend's PC and watch him gag when all his Words windows disappear into one instance of Word.

If on the other hand, each of these supposed new Windows instances on his Wintel displays "Document 1", then he probably has found a way to run separate instances of Word.

As far as Internet Explorer goes... if he used a Mac with Safari with Tabs, then he wouldn't need to run separate instances of the browser! And with Safari, he also has the option of a new window. (It drives me NUTS waiting for a new instance of IE to launch on Windows, when I click "Open in New Window"

On the Mac, QuickTime can have several movies open (command-N).

I really don't i understand why he wants to run multiple instances of apps. That would just chew resources and increase the possibility of conflicts. Ironically, the only app I've found (on my Mac) that doesn't allow me to have multiple windows is Microsoft's RDP app (for accessing Terminal Services). So for it I made a second copy - which has caused a conflict once.

 

[Macmaniac]

Ok here is my friend!

My friend is sitting next to me so he will type his complaints, I can't explain them as well as he can.
SO THIS IS HIM TYPING!

Hi all. I want to explain further my reasons for my anti-mac feelings.

you can't (as far as I can tell) run two instances of one task at once. In windows or linux i can double click on konqueror or ie, then double click on it again, and two different apps are started. two parent process, with seperate pids and stacks and everything. In 0sX I run the same app and I just get thrown back into the same window of the currently running process. Why?

And yes, there are many reasons to want to do this. Let's say Iim working on an imovie project and my friend wants to check a clip from his project. I'm in the middle of something, and I don't want to save, so I just open up another instance of imovie and open his project. the two instances are completely seperate. And no, 5300cs, its not a memory problem, my computers all have plenty of memory. and my operating systems don't hog it all. my computers are plenty capable of handling two programs at once...

Oh yeah, and Im tired of hearing all this stuff about how only certain versions of macOS are considered "good". First it was that only X was good, and that older versions were no good. well, fine, whatever. then it was that only the newest version, 10.2 was good, and the older 10.0 and10.1 were unstable. OK. now bousozuko claims that only 10.2.8 is good, and the older ones are no good. When I download the newest version of linux, I'm getting the full deal: a good kernel, and good progs to go with it, regardless of the version.

Oh yeah, one other thing: who's complaining about me not being able to run digital editing apps under linux? Ever heard of Wine? its a windows dll emulator for linux. you can run photoshop under wine, office, anything you want. And because its not a true emulator (and it only runs on pc's), you get full speed. Look it up on sourceforge if your intersteed.

My point is that with linux and (to some extent windows) I get the full deal. i don't have to wonder if my linux computer will hang during an export. I dont have to worry about running multiple applications and crashing the os. i can configure ANYTHING on it. And its free. Apple makes me pay thousands for buggy software, then claims its the newest, best thing.

I'll end this with a quote from maddox: (and im paraphrasing): "...i'm tired of people who spend their time matching their outfits to their computers"

OK, thats it, this is all my own, my friend has no responsiblity for what im sure he considers heresy... thanks for hearing me out.

Ok I'm in control of my account again, so read it and reply.

 

[Mr. Anderson]

For the record - OS updates are usually around a $100 or so, not thousands.

And it really doesn't matter what system you like best - its all a personal preference and people should stop complaining about which is better. In the end its what you do with the computer that makes it important - and that's up to the individual. There are pros and cons for all machines and pretty much all these arguments have been posted before.....

D

 

[DavidLeblond]

you can't (as far as I can tell) run two instances of one task at once. In windows or linux i can double click on konqueror or ie, then double click on it again, and two different apps are started. two parent process, with seperate pids and stacks and everything. In 0sX I run the same app and I just get thrown back into the same window of the currently running process. Why?

When your 2 IE windows are up and one of them crashes, do both of them go away? They do? nuff said.

Oh yeah, and Im tired of hearing all this stuff about how only certain versions of macOS are considered "good". First it was that only X was good, and that older versions were no good. well, fine, whatever. then it was that only the newest version, 10.2 was good, and the older 10.0 and10.1 were unstable. OK. now bousozuko claims that only 10.2.8 is good, and the older ones are no good. When I download the newest version of linux, I'm getting the full deal: a good kernel, and good progs to go with it, regardless of the version.

I use Linux at home, and I fail to see what the difference is. The latest version is usually considered "good." Why? Probably because its the LATEST VERSION.

Look at Windows... what is the best version? XP. When Windows 2000 was out, what was the best version? 2000. When Windows ME was out, what was the best version? ... well... 2000.

Oh yeah, one other thing: who's complaining about me not being able to run digital editing apps under linux? Ever heard of Wine? its a windows dll emulator for linux. you can run photoshop under wine, office, anything you want. And because its not a true emulator (and it only runs on pc's), you get full speed. Look it up on sourceforge if your intersteed.

Running Windows programs under Wine does not magically make those programs Linux apps.

Ever heard of Virtual PC? Look it up on microsoft.com if your intersteed (wtf does that mean?)

My point is that with linux and (to some extent windows) I get the full deal. i don't have to wonder if my linux computer will hang during an export. I dont have to worry about running multiple applications and crashing the os. i can configure ANYTHING on it. And its free. Apple makes me pay thousands for buggy software, then claims its the newest, best thing.

If you're paying thousands for Max OS X, you're getting ripped off. Windows costs more, and sure Linux is free if your time is worthless. Buggy software my ass. And it is the newest, best thing.

I'll end this with a quote from maddox: (and im paraphrasing): "...i'm tired of people who spend their time matching their outfits to their computers"

My computer is white. I don't wear white. So buy an iMac and paint it beige .

 

[krimson]

if you hate Mac's that much, then dont use it, and dont buy one.. it's as simple as that.. Let your wallet speak for you.

 

[edesignuk]

And it really doesn't matter what system you like best - its all a personal preference and people should stop complaining about which is better. In the end its what you do with the computer that makes it important - and that's up to the individual. There are pros and cons for all machines and pretty much all these arguments have been posted before.....

Well said Mr. A. Arguments like this are a waste of everyones time and energy. Just use what you like and enjoy it