My PC friend and his complaints with Macs

[abhishekit]

wow..this thread is still going on. well, i use linux on my two comps at school, and i use mac os x at home. I like both, so I will try to keep emotion out of this.
i would have loved to answer in detail about your two points, but daveman deluxe's answer is pretty much complete and leaves little to add.

but still regarding crashes, i would say it depends on a lot of things. My system (OS X) has never once crashed since last year (time i am using 10.3.x). and still, you can find many users on this forum who have posted threads about crashes. That said, I still maintain that OS X is a very very stable system with rare crashes. As dave said, apps may crash some rare times.
and dude, floppy drives!!! , i dint even hear that term since i dont know when...

cheers

 

[mvc]

I think a lot of this religious anti - mac stuff is an insecurity thing - some people just don't like a computer that's friendlier than they are.

These kinds of folk need to be so in control that they can only feel secure when half the operating system lives inside their head and no-one else can understand the cryptic interface. That way they can play I.T. High-Priest for the 'luser' masses and everyone thinks they are a guru.

Electronic ego massage.

Whatever floats your boat

 

[Macmaniac]

I think this thread has lasted so long because, A. its not a flame war, and B. there is actually some form of intelligent debate.
Oh here is an interesting tidbit, intx13 who is the now 'infamous' friend that i brought here, uses only PCs that he has dragged out of the trash, literally, he found a PC out in the rain, let it dry then installed Linux on it. His fastest computer is I think a 600-700mhz AMD machine. This thread is going to make great discussion in school tomorrow. Also for those of you who are going to post in response to this thread please read the whole thing first, things are being repeated and some questions are redundant. Now back to the debate.

 

[intx13]

more more more

Thanks for the replies. I was happy to note that everything was more on topic.. makes for much more informative debate.

OK, here we go:

"Actually, a multibutton mouse works out of the box."
What box? Not the box your mac comes in. Cough up the cash for third party hardware... strange for a company that provides so much home-made (or at least not used anywhere else) parts

"Linux is *not* free because the cost of learning it"
A competent sysadmin can set up a linux system within a week of booting up. There is more online tutorials and information available than you can shake a mac at. That said, a competent sysadmin can make linux look and act just like Windows, just like X, just like nextstep, whatever, so that any user can jump right in. I've done it several times. Sure it may be a little more difficult for the sysadmin to begin, but a sysadmin shouldn't be a newbie. Thats why he/she's an ADMINISTRATOR. And I'm sorry if I offend anybody, but if high school students can admin linux in a week (to some degree of profiency), any professional should be able to pick it up. It's really not that difficult guys...

"how long have you been using Macs?"
Too long...

"Also, how long has it been since you used a Mac? They haven't "smiled on boot" since AFAIK 68k days." I was joking. And besides, I've used the old 68k's quite a bit. My point still stands, though. There's nothing "scary" about some text flying by before the gui boots.

"
>Mitthrawnuruodo: "The best thing to do when meeting people who...just >smile". Oooorrrr, if you truly believed in your own argument, you could try to >convince them. REfusing to stand up for your own argument is a statement >in itself.
Or for people who are as closed minded as you, his idea may be a good one."

Close-minded? I'm actually trying to have a conversation/debate with you guys! If i'm close-minded, what do you consider the millions of pc-using programmers/techs that never gave a thought to macs because it just wasn't practical for them?

"And I must ask, how long have you been using Macs? You don't sound like, for a tech guy, you know much about them at all."
Hah, I guess I misrepresented myself. I'm a high school student. My experience with Macs has mainly been in lab use and for film editing, both in and out of school. I'm somewhat familiar with them, but I'm no expert. That's why I'm here...

Nuthin wrong with floppy drives. Say you want to move a file from a non-networked stand-alone comp to one across the room. Do you want to burn a cd? I don't. And although I have a usb drive, I don't want to give it to a friend to run down the hall to another standalone comp, or give it to someone with a document on it. Floppies are dirt cheap, and take little space. I like them. They also let novices write operating systems and test them easily.

So I have to go soon, but I'm seeing one trend here: you guys don't particulatly want to do anything with your comps but what they were designed for. I want to be able to program on my computer, I want to be able to write an operating system. I want other people to be able to do the things THEY want on their computer, even if I don't want to do those things. PC's (especially on linux) provide that flexibility.

OK I'm being kicked off my computer by a family member. Thanks for the input again.

 

[voicegy]

I have actually raised the point that since they are school computers weird stuff happens to them when stupid people use them, however he does not buy into that argument, because in his words, "If Mac OS was so great then it would be able to handle this kind of situation."

Oh, this one is TOO easy.

Have him visit a PC lab at a school site.

 

[DavidLeblond]

This is fun!

DavidLeblond: do your research first. Running two instances of IE when one dies DOES NOT kill the other, unless their tied together (ie if one is the parent, if the other was spawned via a "New... or a Open in New Window). So in fact this coincides with my point, that seperating tasks makes the OS MORE robust, as specific instances can crash and not kill the whole.

Why do I need to run seperate browser instances? You keep saying its a good thing, I don't see it. If you're paranoid enough to want to run 2 copies of Safari, just use the command line (you ARE a unix guy, right?)

David L: "intersteed (wtf does that mean?)" ooo clever, you caught a spelling mistake...I produce my most humble apoligies to you for such a flagrant fault. I can only hope that I never trespass against you in such a manner again.

It's good to have a browser with built-in spellcheck.

Second, it crashes. now I keep hearing that its so stable, that X never crashes, but the fact is, EVERY mac running ANY version of X that I have seen has crashed at some point or another while I was watching someone use it.

Newsflash, sometimes computers crash. I've seen Linux crash, Solaris crash, Windows crash, AIX crash... hell I've seen a caculator die.

Now I'm sure this post will inspire mac users everywhere to post and tell me just how long THEIR system has been running. I'm sure dozens of people would love to tell their friends to just ignore me, so if you're considering posting a follow up, please be considerate and check this criteria:
1. Am I addressing a specific concern intx13 mentioned?
2. Do I know what I'm talking about (ie have I used macos for more than a year)?
3. Have I ever used a pc?
4. Do I know what linux is?
5. Do I choose my socks based on the color of my computer?

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. I have 2 of them, have built well over 2 dozen.
4. I have run Debian, every version of Mandrake since 7, several versions of RedHat, SuSE, Knoppix, Slackware, Fedora, and various smaller distros.
5. No, I usually choose them based on what pants I'm wearing.

 

[DavidLeblond]

"Linux is *not* free because the cost of learning it"
A competent sysadmin can set up a linux system within a week of booting up. There is more online tutorials and information available than you can shake a mac at. That said, a competent sysadmin can make linux look and act just like Windows, just like X, just like nextstep, whatever, so that any user can jump right in. I've done it several times. Sure it may be a little more difficult for the sysadmin to begin, but a sysadmin shouldn't be a newbie. Thats why he/she's an ADMINISTRATOR. And I'm sorry if I offend anybody, but if high school students can admin linux in a week (to some degree of profiency), any professional should be able to pick it up. It's really not that difficult guys...

A WEEK???? Dude, get a new sysadmin. I go through Linux distros like popcorn, and if it takes me more than an hour to set it up I consider it a crap distro.

I don't know about you, but a week of my time is pretty frickin expensive... I think it would be MUCH cheaper to get an XServe .

 

[musicpyrite]

Oh here is an interesting tidbit, intx13 who is the now 'infamous' friend that i brought here, uses only PCs that he has dragged out of the trash, literally, he found a PC out in the rain, let it dry then installed Linux on it. His fastest computer is I think a 600-700mhz AMD machine.

I find my PCs all over the place, last Saturday I went to the dump, and found a Pentium II MMX, 48 MB of RAM, 3 GB HD; and it has 95 installed. It's sad that I have to drag my PCs out of the trash...

 

[aussie_geek]

I've used them all - Mac takes the cake

please delete - double post

 

[aussie_geek]

I've used them all - Mac takes the cake

I have been using computers for the last 20 years. Started out with the classic Commodore 64, Amiga, Mac IIFx, MacPlus and MacClassic then the iMac, Dual G4 tower, New Powerbook G4 (latest addition ), Unix boxes at work (Sun Ultrasparcs) and Windoze computers in the office. You name it i've played on it.

After the end of the day I have always been coming home to my Mac. You just turn it on and bingo - everthing is there infront of you with no problems. The Mac in my eyes is the computer that you enjoy using. It's not about how much ram, how many programs you can have running, its about what you want to do on it.

And for the comments about how many apps open at the same time and multitasking, just remember we only have one brain connected to two eyes and two hands. You are only interacting with one program at a time. You can have other things going on in the background but the frontmost app is the most important.

And with macs with their SUPERIOR multitasking abilities you can do all your rendering and sound processing in the background while having real fun with your Mac instead...

just my 2c

aussie_geek

 

[quagmire]

Intx3, do you know there is such thing called force quit in Mac OS X? I have two Macs. I have an 400 Mhz Powermac G4 and a rev b 1 Ghz powerbook G4. The Powermac is running 10.2.8, sometimes applications do freeze. A lot of people in my school mistake app freezes with system freezes. When the emacs crash does the cursor absolutely freeze or when you are in an app the rainbow spin wheel pops up? If, the rainbow wheel, does it still do it when you click onto the finder. If yes, the app has simply crashed and if you would go under the apple symbol you will see force quit. You click it and it pops open a window and it list the apps open click the app that is frozen and click force quit and another windows pops up saying are you sure you want to force quit, you click force quit. I am not trying to call you stupid or anything. A lot of people and teachers confuse app crashes and system crashes.

 

[codycartoon]

I am not going to read this whole thread but I can tell you that I used to argue the Mac Vrs. PC thing quite a bit with a bunch of filmmakers and artists.

But I try not to do it anymore, as much as they provoke.

While they try and wail on the technical and other aspects of the Mac I simply say this.

"You're computer is a tool, and the only way you could ever measure any tool is by the final product you create while using the tool.

You say that my tool is flawed, you say that Apple's OS is bad, and their hardware is overpriced and poor and yet I somehow seem to create and produce pieces that I like, and clearly represent my vision.

While I have tried other tools, for example Windows and linux. Apple's computers and software are simply what I prefer.

So **** off"

-cody

 

[Fukui]

4. He hates that you can't have two QT programs open at once, or two Internet explorer programs open at the same time. On windows he boasts how he can have 5 individual Word programs open at the same.(This does not mean 5 windows, but 5 individual Word programs open at the same time) This again he says shows why Mac OS has ruined UNIX

Show him this...

 

[bousozoku]

Show him this...

You can only do that when the dock is on the right side of the display, though.

 

[Fukui]

You can only do that when the dock is on the right side of the display, though.

 

[James L]

Sorry dude, my comments earlier where designed to point out that insulting your social skills and wardrobe was akin to you insulting your buddies taste in machines. It was not a direct attack on you, but on your comments about your buddies computer tastes.

Now, having said that, I must say that if I had to chose the opinion of a high school student versus the FBI, NASA, Virginia Tech, dozens of major film production companies, major graphic design houses, every recording studio I have ever been in, and also Electronic Arts the last time I was there I would have to say I would not be on your side of the fence. You can argue your point all you want from your perspective as a high school student... I will go with the movers and shakers of industry, and the decision goes to Mac.

You commented that we are content with a Mac as it does what WE want it to do. Dude, WE are the majority of Mac users. Do you think 99% of people out there could give a rats ass about writing OS code? 99% of people want their machine to easily help them achieve a goal, such as play a game, surf the web, design a webpage, edit a movie, manage their pictures, etc. With that in mind I would say Linux based machines are the sore losers compared to Macs. I have used computers since 1981. I have never cared about having multiple Safari's open, etc. I have designed websites professionally for 4 years, done graphic design for 7. I am the average user of a computer. I surf, I email, I edit pictures in Photoshop (which GIMP sucks compared to), I game, I create movies in Final Cut, I record as a musician. In short, I Get REAL work done DAILY. None of the things you have mentioned amount to REAL work to me. I make approximately $900-$1100 a week at work. I want, and need, a machine that I don't have to screw around with, and that helps me with the goals I need to achieve on a regular basis. THAT is what a machine is designed to do, and none do it better than Macs. I have yet to walk into a design studio, a recording studio, etc and see them running Linux and open source software. Why is that?

Again, I apologize if you think I attacked you personally, but I think your young, high school, views are not in line with what goes on in the real world on a daily basis. While you have safely pointed out that the Mac is not the best machine FOR YOU, the fact that Apple has sold 50 - 60 million of them seems to say to me that it rocks for many people. The true sign of maturity is to realize that there is no one solution that works for everyone. A computer, like a hammer, is a tool. Buy the one best suited to the work you are doing.

Cheers,

James

 

[blue&whiteman]

macs use unix now. to say macs suck is to say unix sucks (since most of this seems to be about os level stuff). unix is arguably the best os ever made and free bsd is a rock solid port of unix. free bsd is what osx uses. there is a FULL version of free bsd at the core and throughout osx.

I just don't understand how anyone can be so bothered by a platform of computers..

mac users would not pay more for hardware, tolerate far less software selection and all the other negatives of being a mac user if macs sucked.

macs are the creative platform of computers and dominate virtually all creative markets computer needs. this is why apple has lasted even through the mid 90's.

 

[bousozoku]

macs use unix now. to say macs suck is to say unix sucks (since most of this seems to be about os level stuff). unix is arguably the best os ever made and free bsd is a rock solid port of unix. free bsd is what osx uses. there is a FULL version of free bsd at the core and throughout osx.
...

That's not precise enough to be correct but close.

There is compatibility with FreeBSD in Mac OS X and there is a BSD layer, but the kernel is a modified version of Mach 3.0 with the BSD layer above it and finally the media layers.

 

[ChrisH3677]

I'm somewhat familiar with them, but I'm no expert. That's why I'm here...

This is what's bugging us dude... you are making claims about Macs/OSX which are being proved wrong - yet you made yourself out to be an expert on Macs by telling us all the things they couldn't do.

you guys don't particularly want to do anything with your comps but what they were designed for. I want to be able to program on my computer, I want to be able to write an operating system. I want other people to be able to do the things THEY want on their computer, even if I don't want to do those things. PC's (especially on linux) provide that flexibility.

We all do different things on our Macs. Some only run in Terminal. Some develop software. Some produce Academy Award winning films. Some run as firewalls or web-servers. Some just type emails. They are very flexible machines.

The things most other people want to do on their computer is... just use them. That's why Windows and OSX aren't designed with techies like you as their main customer.

If you want to get down to the level you do, then Linux is a good choice coz it is a DIYish OS. But if you spent just as much time getting to know OSX, you wouldn't have been here...

Computers and OS makers are trying to make them more and more user friendly. This is the Linux world's single biggest goal. This is why Mandrake exists - because Linux was/is too difficult to use. In another 5 to 10 years, you will lament the passing of the days when you could get really technical with Linux. There's not enough of you guys in the world for any major OS maker to cater to your needs.

You would have loved the 80's. Besides Macs, most computing was real get-your-hands-dirty type stuff. It was a lotta fun, but ironically, the computer I really wanted was... a Mac!It took 20 years til i finally got one, and it was everything I'd always hoped for.

One question... do you run Linux in GUI or command line?

 

[pooky]

Show him this...

Why only 3? It took 9 before Word's bloatedness slowed down my comp...

 

[mr_mac]

Now the real deal...

I tought i'd post a comment on this one.

First, i've been a senior Mac tech for 11 years now specialized in software troubleshooting. I've used macs since the Apple II. I've been testing Mac OS versions since 1992. I've tried almost every build OS X has seen.

So, i think i know my OS.

Try this.

I own a real video/audio editing station.
A Dual G5 2GHz, 1,5GB RAM, 480GB RAID, 3 displays, yamaha mixing board, Altec Lansing Speakers.

Typical setup/actual running processes:

iTunes playing a .aiff
Final Cut Pro Importing a 1hour tape
Compressor encoding in MPEG-2
DVD Studio Pro burning a DVD
3 instances of hotline Client downloading/uploading
(Done by command-D (Duplicates the app) on the app and reopening the copy)
Poisoned downloading/uploading
Mail checking email every 10 minutes
ical opened
calculator opened
stickies opened
Photoshop opened
illustrator opened
iChat opened
etc.

Try and do that on your PC running what ever version of what ever system software.

I've never EVER seen my G5 crash. It never shuts down. I put it in sleep mode at night. The only reboots are for systems updates. i'm running 10.3.4. It's been running since september 26, 2003. It's been down for about 8 hours since when i removed the hard drives to create the RAID. (I put the HD in another computer to back up everything, i didn't have enough space, so i went to the office)

I can't understand how Mac Os is not stable.

By the way, sometimes, when i import DV video in final cut pro, i sometimes watch a DVD or i play NeverWinter Nights just for fun...

Volume issue?? where have you seen that?

The crash log can be seen easily by opening the console in the utility folder.

I own several PCs such as a few PII, PIII, PIV and my favorite, a Athlon64 Server. they all do what they are supposed to, but do not ask too much of them. They all run XP SP1 with all Teletubbies visual artefacts disabled.

I can confirm that i get my job done faster, with less frustration on my Mac than on any PC i've seen up to now.

I'll happily (no hard feelings) help you intx13 with any questions you may have regarding macs. I can assure you that there's always a way to get the job done, whatever the job on a mac.

Regards,

Mrmac

 

[KingSleaze]

It's just a tool

intx13

Congratulations for being able to write an entire OS that fits on A floppy disc. Since most computers come with at least a CD-RW drive, a CD works equally well as a floppy to my mind. A CD will also last longer in use than a floppy.

I like the Mac (and by extension the OS) because I can use it. I don't have to fiddle with it. I could if I really wanted to, but I don't have to. I don't have to write a program to do what I want to with it, because I can buy one. If I wanted to spend my time programming, I'd rather get paid for doing that. Many of my friends that are semi-average computer users at work, don't want to use a computer at home, it would be too much like work.

My time is more valuable to me than spending it trying to make my computer do what I want it to do. The Mac does it. Easily. With minimal fuss.

Since I upgraded from a G3 iMac using OS 9 to a Powerbook G4 using OS10.3.X, I have had ZERO system crashes. Plenty of apps have crashed, never the OS.

You spout on about your proficiency with Linux. I can't believe that your entire proficiency is due to working at it for only one week.

This hammer works for me without having to reforge it. When I need a saw, I'll go buy a saw instead of trying to turn my hammer into a saw.

Many of us Mac users have had to put up with various PC bigots at various times. Their "arguments" seldom change. That's why for some of us, arguing the benefits of one computer over another is just so much wasted breath. They don't actually listen to what they are being told.

Yup, the PC costs less for the basic machine. Several years with a common OS, the manufacturers cut their profits to the bone to sell more machines. Windows took off as it did because it was easier to use than the various other DOS systems available at the time (DRDOS, PCDOS, MSDOS). The first three versions of Windows sucked big time, but it was easier to use than DOS. Since its original issue, Windows has been trying to make PCs as easy to USE as Mac. Because Apple controls the machine AND the OS, to get a PC as capable as the new Mac "out of the box", it will cost more than the Mac.

Right clicking- another Windows "innovation". Apple doesn't sell a multibutton mouse because they want to keep the user experience simple and easy. I can buy a multibutton mouse if I wanted to, and it would work however I want it to work.

 

[aussie_geek]

nice one dude

 

[mateybob]

intx13 i would love to heard about this 'operating system' you programmed.. actually id like to what background in computers you really have... i mean im sorry but to hear someone say the things you do and then not know about things such as the unix &... or use ridiculous browers like ie or konquerer.. it kind of reeks of 15 year old kid who thinks hes 1337.. (i reserve the right to be wrong)

what someone said about ALL lab computers sucking is really quite true... ive used labs with unix, linux, windows and macos and they were all equally unstable... youve got to understand that these machines only recieve 1% of the technical attention your home machine would yet are being used constantly by people who have little idea what theyre doing and have little incentive to be careful with them...

ive used macos, windows and unix extensively and linux to some extent and i can honostly say i find macs superior in EVERY aspect that is not related to the overpowering market share of windows..

 

[Danrose1977]

You actually can run separate instances of some apps in Windows, in contrast to previous posts, but not the examples you cite. Word and IE both simply spawn new windows for the same process. As noted, you can set both Word and Excel to display open documents/workbooks in the same window or separate ones, but that doesn't change the fact that the program's only running once. And if one IE window crashes, the whole program does. I can't speak to Linux, but I would expect an OS used by geeks who know the difference between a window and a process to make that distinction. I would also expect a consumer OS like OS X or Windows to hide that distinction from users, as they both do.

Thats totally true and the main reason why I despise IE and WinWord.... once one goes they all die.

Strangly M$ decided to build some of their programs in the OS this way and others so that they open multiple instances and therefore have some basic fault tollerance....

Winword.exe expensive word processing solution with a moderate chance of crashing --> No basic fault tollerance
Calc.exe very basic calculator program, almost no chance of a crash --> Opens multiple instances! basic fault tollerance!