My PowerPC Plan: What happens when Intel comes into the picture again?

[PowerMac G4 MDD]

Much to the counterclaim of Mac haters, Apple does support their products for a long time. Most iPhones get four major iOS versions which is practically unheard of with Androids especially those which run custom software. My Mac is only two years old and has had four OS versions on it so far without performance issues. I do agree that Apple drops support quicker than some, but really does regard past products to a high degree. I think us PowerPC users have a sour taste in our mind as some of our machines only got two major OS to run. I look at the PPC --> Intel transition as just a new birth for the Mac and Apple had to drop the old quicker than we wanted. Now, just because Apple dropped PPC, clearly doesn't mean we have to.

Yeah, that is true---the Intel jump was a large exception. I hate how Snow Leopard is already out of support. I wish Apple hadn't started coming out with an OS per year. They did Mountain Lion and suddenly Mavericks, then suddenly Yosemite. One of these here was definitely not needed and just pushed SL further back (this is not to say that Mountain Lion and Mavericks suck). I feel as if Apple looks back at their past in some ways, but nobody ever does so in the sense of software. With Yosemite, Apple took everything they had originally stood for in their OS design and just flipped it off and tossed it out the Window.

Sadly, my MBP isn't so quick on Mountain Lion, which is such a drag. This machine is perfectly capable even if it's a 2009 base-model. I currently run Snow Leopard, which is the latest of Apple's OSs I have actually used full-time.

 

[Altemose]

Yeah, that is true---the Intel jump was a large exception. I hate how Snow Leopard is already out of support. I wish Apple hadn't started coming out with an OS per year. They did Mountain Lion and suddenly Mavericks, then suddenly Yosemite. One of these here was definitely not needed and just pushed SL further back (this is not to say that Mountain Lion and Mavericks suck). I feel as if Apple looks back at their past in some ways, but nobody ever does so in the sense of software. With Yosemite, Apple took everything they had originally stood for in their OS design and just flipped it off and tossed it out the Window.

Sadly, my MBP isn't so quick on Mountain Lion, which is such a drag. This machine is perfectly capable even if it's a 2009 base-model. I currently run Snow Leopard, which is the latest of Apple's OSs I have actually used full-time.

Yosemite is just a way for Apple to unify the UI between iOS and OS X. At least they build on the past rather than throw it out the window like Microsoft did in Windows 8.

 

[PowerMac G4 MDD]

Yosemite is just a way for Apple to unify the UI between iOS and OS X. At least they build on the past rather than throw it out the window like Microsoft did in Windows 8.

True---the functionality of Yosemite isn't that much different from previous versions. I was speaking in terms of UI design though.

 

[Altemose]

True---the functionality of Yosemite isn't that much different from previous versions. I was speaking in terms of UI design though.

I do like Yosemite especially certain parts of it...

 

[MagicBoy]

I always found it ridiculous how Apple spent so long promoting the superiority of the RISC architecture of PowerPC as opposed to Intel chips then instantly forgot all that when promoting Intel Macs...which I know is what counts for great business skills but it has made me suspicious of them ever since. I've only owned two Intel Macs (core solo Mini and iMac) so maybe it's unfair to compare but my PowerPC Macs always 'feel' better to use.

You are confusing marketing with engineering. Marketings job is to sell the products that engineering create. When neither are doing a good job, and don't communicate then you end up with the Apple of the Spindler era.

On the engineering side, the problem with RISC is it's power hungry. Yeah, it's damn fast for certain tasks - Apples then core professional market and Altivec were a very good match. Apple had been on the backfoot ever since the inability of the alliance partners to overcome the manufacturing issues that persisted from the early G4 days. Apple were marketing the PowerPC machines based on the RISC architecture the best way they could once Steve returned.

However a couple of things happened - as prices decreased the market was changing - portable machines were selling in ever greater numbers. Secondly both PowerPC and Netburst hit a point where they couldn't sensibly go any faster - the desktop CPUs were chewing through well over 100W. No wonder the late G5s had to be liquid cooled!

Intel went down the wrong path with Netburst. once they realised their mistake and regrouped around the Banias project out of Israel, performance per watt improved massively. AIM couldn't compete. Ultimately Apple made the right call. There wasn't a third path available at the time, and the Pentium M machines had the Powerbooks beaten for performance, battery life and the associated packaging advantages that come with better performance per watt.

It's not as if Apple could stop selling PowerPC machines, or telling the customers to come back in 6 months when they had something new. It's financial suicide.

 

[AlecZ]

Dude, now that you have a fast Intel Mac, you probably won't feel the urge to get Minecraft or AssaultCube working on PPC. And then you'll use PPC less.

I was sad when I found out that there's no GameCube emulator for PPC. It seems like that would be one place PPC would beat even newer Intel chips because there wouldn't be any need to emulate the processor architecture.

 

[Dronecatcher]

You are confusing marketing with engineering. Marketings job is to sell the products that engineering create. When neither are doing a good job, and don't communicate then you end up with the Apple of the Spindler era.

On the engineering side, the problem with RISC is it's power hungry. Yeah, it's damn fast for certain tasks - Apples then core professional market and Altivec were a very good match. Apple had been on the backfoot ever since the inability of the alliance partners to overcome the manufacturing issues that persisted from the early G4 days. Apple were marketing the PowerPC machines based on the RISC architecture the best way they could once Steve returned.

However a couple of things happened - as prices decreased the market was changing - portable machines were selling in ever greater numbers. Secondly both PowerPC and Netburst hit a point where they couldn't sensibly go any faster - the desktop CPUs were chewing through well over 100W. No wonder the late G5s had to be liquid cooled!

Intel went down the wrong path with Netburst. once they realised their mistake and regrouped around the Banias project out of Israel, performance per watt improved massively. AIM couldn't compete. Ultimately Apple made the right call. There wasn't a third path available at the time, and the Pentium M machines had the Powerbooks beaten for performance, battery life and the associated packaging advantages that come with better performance per watt.

It's not as if Apple could stop selling PowerPC machines, or telling the customers to come back in 6 months when they had something new. It's financial suicide.

Yeah, I fully understanding the marketing dilemma because Apple had nowhere left to go with PowerPC at that time and they did take the only viable choice available.
However, and this is a swipe at marketing for purely financial gain in general, Apple could've respected the existing customer base for their previous support and offered discounts on Intel machines to customers who'd bought PowerPC say, 12 months prior. Afterall, Apple were marketing and selling their flagship, the G5 Quad, to customers in the full knowledge that the machine would be untenable in professional setups within a year or so - that's just plain deceitful.
Again, I know how marketing works and I am being a little naive but I still think it is possible to be successful and also treat people with respect.

 

[Altemose]

Yeah, I fully understanding the marketing dilemma because Apple had nowhere left to go with PowerPC at that time and they did take the only viable choice available.

However, and this is a swipe at marketing for purely financial gain in general, Apple could've respected the existing customer base for their previous support and offered discounts on Intel machines to customers who'd bought PowerPC say, 12 months prior. Afterall, Apple were marketing and selling their flagship, the G5 Quad, to customers in the full knowledge that the machine would be untenable in professional setups within a year or so - that's just plain deceitful.

Again, I know how marketing works and I am being a little naive but I still think it is possible to be successful and also treat people with respect.

The PowerMac G5 was still on the table after the Pros came out as professional software still called for PowerPC for years after the beginning of the Intel transition.

 

[tevion5]

Yeah, that's probably very true; and I am sure you and I and others here know WAY more about PowerPC Macs than Cook himself does... seems as though the only person from Apple who regards its past is Ives.

Cook was managing production since 97'. He was the one that moved manufacturing to Foxconn and would have seen every PPC machine distributed since the 8600 until the Quad G5 no doubt. I'm sure he knows a reasonable amount about PPC, but only as much as a production manager would need to. He is hardly unaware of its existence.

 

[PowerMac G4 MDD]

Cook was managing production since 97'. He was the one that moved manufacturing to Foxconn and would have seen every PPC machine distributed since the 8600 until the Quad G5 no doubt. I'm sure he knows a reasonable amount about PPC, but only as much as a production manager would need to. He is hardly unaware of its existence.

Well, no-doubt he has seen PPC Macs since 1997, but it seems like he doesn't even know what one is anymore. I know that's his job, since companies are supposed to move forward and not dwell on older products, but I can tell he doesn't value Apple's past. In fact, whatever he is currently pushing with Apple completely disregards anything they have done in the past. I feel like they are trying to rip away from everything else and have the company re-born.

 

[SlCKB0Y]

On the engineering side, the problem with RISC is it's power hungry.

I don't think that there is any reason why RISC is inherently power hungry - it's just that that particular implementation of PPC was compared to the Intel competition at the time.

 

[MysticCow]

I don't think that there is any reason why RISC is inherently power hungry - it's just that that particular implementation of PPC was compared to the Intel competition at the time.

Well, when the G4's and G5's came out, the Pentium series was running so hot it could melt the ice caps. That was also about the time when Intel hit a brick wall, knowing that clocking the processor even higher wouldn't make for good results.

Intel adapted to the idea of "faster, smaller, cooler," which is how the Core series came. PowerPC really didn't. Sure, they had something, but it never did compare to what Intel had in the pipeline and in the wild.

 

[RedCroissant]

I might as well chime in here....

I love PowerPC Macs and decided to get rid of them all when I was becoming a car designer and bought a 27" iMac (late 2013). NOW....with that job gone and no one hiring due to my very little experience in the field, I am now getting more and more PPC stuff. I have an iBook G3, an iBook G4 (from eyoungren), and I'll be getting an iBook G3 back from my brother in law because he decided that it wasn't worth the effort and he never used it.

Plus, I am needing to sell my iMac now and will either downgrade to a MacPro that runs Yosemite, or to a macbook pro that I will eventually use with an external display.

Suffice it to say, the PPC Macs still work hard and still do more than I expect and now that my designing "career" is in question and I rarely design anything, this iMac has become superfluous. :-(

I am still looking forward to the day where I actually decide and am able to hold on to one machine for a long time.

Basically, I am looking back to the PPC macs due to necessity and savings and ability to still do everything I need it for.

So if anyone is going to be getting rid of their PPC Macs, I will gladly accept them! Gladly!

 

[PowerMac G4 MDD]

I love PowerPC Macs and decided to get rid of them all when I was becoming a car designer and bought a 27" iMac (late 2013). NOW....with that job gone and no one hiring due to my very little experience in the field, I am now getting more and more PPC stuff. I have an iBook G3, an iBook G4 (from eyoungren), and I'll be getting an iBook G3 back from my brother in law because he decided that it wasn't worth the effort and he never used it.

Plus, I am needing to sell my iMac now and will either downgrade to a MacPro that runs Yosemite, or to a macbook pro that I will eventually use with an external display.

Suffice it to say, the PPC Macs still work hard and still do more than I expect and now that my designing "career" is in question and I rarely design anything, this iMac has become superfluous. :-(

I am still looking forward to the day where I actually decide and am able to hold on to one machine for a long time.

Basically, I am looking back to the PPC macs due to necessity and savings and ability to still do everything I need it for.

So if anyone is going to be getting rid of their PPC Macs, I will gladly accept them! Gladly!

Interesting... I actually wanted to be a car designer for a while; I began drawing cars when I was in---like---3rd grade or something, and from there on the cars got better and more realistic. About a couple-a few summers ago, I took my first formal car-designing class at Pasadena Arts Center here in California (whatever it's called). I sorta drifted off into buildings and then discovered Sketchup. I began considering architecture, but I'd really like something in between architecture and engineering, as plain-old architecture didn't sound too appealing; I am not totally sure as of now, but I'd like to study something like that when I go to college.

I guess I am getting back into Intel use again, but that's really because I am on winter break and don't need to do homework. As stated, I'll have a simple PPC machine at my work desk and my Mac Pro at my computer desk. Sometimes it's nice to go into the "computer room" to work, so I can choose between the two. I still find a PPC Macs easier to work on though, considering there is less to be distracted with. For my main PPC machine, I'm sadly letting my PowerMac G5 retire at the brief moment; the point of the Mac Pro is that it's now my beast machine. I don't need some powerhouse PPC machine as my work computer... it was a little straining to run that thing all the time, and it's not good for our rip-off California electric bill, as you maybe have experienced as well.

Anyway, IDK what I'll do with my G5, but I'd like to keep it for now. If I wasn't providing for my own collection (which I admit I am touchy and protective of), I'd definitely let you have some PPC Macs for cheap or free---maybe if for some reason I get too many duplicates of a computer. Shipping isn't easy though, and I only have duplicates of desktop machines.

 

[RedCroissant]

Interesting... I actually wanted to be a car designer for a while; I began drawing cars when I was in---like---3rd grade or something, and from there on the cars got better and more realistic. About a couple-a few summers ago, I took my first formal car-designing class at Pasadena Arts Center here in California (whatever it's called). I sorta drifted off into buildings and then discovered Sketchup. I began considering architecture, but I'd really like something in between architecture and engineering, as plain-old architecture didn't sound too appealing; I am not totally sure as of now, but I'd like to study something like that when I go to college.

I guess I am getting back into Intel use again, but that's really because I am on winter break and don't need to do homework. As stated, I'll have a simple PPC machine at my work desk and my Mac Pro at my computer desk. Sometimes it's nice to go into the "computer room" to work, so I can choose between the two. I still find a PPC Macs easier to work on though, considering there is less to be distracted with. For my main PPC machine, I'm sadly letting my PowerMac G5 retire at the brief moment; the point of the Mac Pro is that it's now my beast machine. I don't need some powerhouse PPC machine as my work computer... it was a little straining to run that thing all the time, and it's not good for our rip-off California electric bill, as you maybe have experienced as well.

Anyway, IDK what I'll do with my G5, but I'd like to keep it for now. If I wasn't providing for my own collection (which I admit I am touchy and protective of), I'd definitely let you have some PPC Macs for cheap or free---maybe if for some reason I get too many duplicates of a computer. Shipping isn't easy though, and I only have duplicates of desktop machines.

I kind of fell into the car designer thing. I was a religious studies major looking forward to a career in academia. My other brother in law is a clay modeller for Hyundai and he got me in to the course for the 3D side of things. I did well enough to get 2 contracts right after the courses but nothing since.

If you are ever reconsidering the car design thing, get used to Katia or Alias. They are currently the go-to software for car design but Katia will soon make the lead since it is more versatile in regards to rendering and animation.

All I really need now is something simple, powerful, energy efficient, and useful. I know that sounds a lot like my Intel machine, but when this thing might be worth around $1700, I could really do well with a $100-$200 investment in a PM G5 or even an older MP (that can still run Yosemite) that uses SATA HDDs. That way, I can at least use SSDs more reliably and the amount of RAM will also be higher (taking the load off of the CPU and “possibly” decreasing energy costs). But we’ll see. I have dreams of raided SSDs and max RAM.

Let me know fi you every want to get rid of one and if you know a good source for cinema displays!

 

[PowerMac G4 MDD]

I kind of fell into the car designer thing. I was a religious studies major looking forward to a career in academia. My other brother in law is a clay modeller for Hyundai and he got me in to the course for the 3D side of things. I did well enough to get 2 contracts right after the courses but nothing since.

If you are ever reconsidering the car design thing, get used to Katia or Alias. They are currently the go-to software for car design but Katia will soon make the lead since it is more versatile in regards to rendering and animation.

All I really need now is something simple, powerful, energy efficient, and useful. I know that sounds a lot like my Intel machine, but when this thing might be worth around $1700, I could really do well with a $100-$200 investment in a PM G5 or even an older MP (that can still run Yosemite) that uses SATA HDDs. That way, I can at least use SSDs more reliably and the amount of RAM will also be higher (taking the load off of the CPU and “possibly” decreasing energy costs). But we’ll see. I have dreams of raided SSDs and max RAM.

Let me know fi you every want to get rid of one and if you know a good source for cinema displays!

Hmm, thanks for the information---I wasn't aware of these two programs and was wondering what programs people used to model cars on computers. I'll have to check these out!

Even though I am also a big PowerPC person, I'd go with a Mac Pro as your main machine. Pop in some more RAM and an SDD and the thing will fly. I have 4GB of RAM and a spinning HD, and my Mac Pro already feels very speedy (gonna get an SSD soon). It all depends on what kind of work you're going to be doing. As a student, I could easily just use PPC as my main platform for everything. If you are doing simpler things, you could be fine with just PowerPC. But considering a 1,1 Mac Pro is pretty cheap as it is, I think it will be worth-it. It really packs a punch.

Do you ever scour your local Craigslist? I have found certain pieces of my collection on CL, including my Mac Pro. Try finding others who want to get rid of their old machines, and maybe check some thrift stores. I don't know one single source of computers, as I don't have just one, and it depends on where you live. If you cannot find anyone here who is able to help, I'd suggest looking locally and seeing what you can find!

P.S. Did you mean 'CATIA'?

 

[RedCroissant]

Hmm, thanks for the information---I wasn't aware of these two programs and was wondering what programs people used to model cars on computers. I'll have to check these out!

Even though I am also a big PowerPC person, I'd go with a Mac Pro as your main machine. Pop in some more RAM and an SDD and the thing will fly. I have 4GB of RAM and a spinning HD, and my Mac Pro already feels very speedy (gonna get an SSD soon). It all depends on what kind of work you're going to be doing. As a student, I could easily just use PPC as my main platform for everything. If you are doing simpler things, you could be fine with just PowerPC. But considering a 1,1 Mac Pro is pretty cheap as it is, I think it will be worth-it. It really packs a punch.

Do you ever scour your local Craigslist? I have found certain pieces of my collection on CL, including my Mac Pro. Try finding others who want to get rid of their old machines, and maybe check some thrift stores. I don't know one single source of computers, as I don't have just one, and it depends on where you live. If you cannot find anyone here who is able to help, I'd suggest looking locally and seeing what you can find!

P.S. Did you mean 'CATIA'?

Yes, I did mean CATIA!!! “KATIA” gets entirely different search results.

I would love a Mac Pro since it is a much better machine than the PM G5 that I had once, but for some reason the machines I see on CL don’t look very well taken care of and the sellers seem to know nothing at all about the machine other than the fact that it has an Apple logo on the side of it. So some ads are sketchy, some blatantly horrible, and some just weird. One ad (a seller selling 2 Mac Pros and 3 PM G5s stated..”don’t ask for specs.”) Lame.

 

[roadbloc]

Much to the counterclaim of Mac haters, Apple does support their products for a long time.

Only if you upgrade the OS. Which can often have undesired consequences. For me to be happy with Apple's support, they need to start investing more support into backwards compatibility and older software support. Compared to Microsoft, Apple's product support is downright atrocious.

 

[MagicBoy]

I don't think that there is any reason why RISC is inherently power hungry - it's just that that particular implementation of PPC was compared to the Intel competition at the time.

A RISC core itself is more efficient, the issue is all the added logic to keep it fed - large amounts of L2 cache, pre-fetching and TLBs etc. The P4 was the competition, and burned through power like it was going out of fashion. I was also RISC to a degree - the Netburst micro-ops were RISC like, but with a large amount of logic to translate CISC x86 instructions into the native micro-ops and get them pipelined.

 

[AlecZ]

Yosemite is just a way for Apple to unify the UI between iOS and OS X. At least they build on the past rather than throw it out the window like Microsoft did in Windows 8.

Well, they threw the design out the window with iOS 7. I don't hate how Yosemite looks, but I prefer how Mavericks looks. I do hate how iOS 7 looks because it's so inconsistent and full of highly contrasting colors; I installed an iOS 6 icon theme on my iPhone. Apple did a much better job moving to "flat" design with Yosemite than they did with iOS 7.

----------

Only if you upgrade the OS. Which can often have undesired consequences. For me to be happy with Apple's support, they need to start investing more support into backwards compatibility and older software support. Compared to Microsoft, Apple's product support is downright atrocious.

Yeah, it's always a gamble whether or not something will work on a new OS X. Once I updated to Mavericks, certain old apps from Leopard suddenly started lagging so much that they were unusable. And they were fine in ML. And in iOS, remember those critical bugs in iOS 6 that they intentionally only patched for people whose devices cannot run iOS 7?

One of the few things I like about MSFT is that they understand that not everyone wants to update everything all the time.

 

[Altemose]

Only if you upgrade the OS. Which can often have undesired consequences. For me to be happy with Apple's support, they need to start investing more support into backwards compatibility and older software support. Compared to Microsoft, Apple's product support is downright atrocious.

It isn't like Apple breaks services on older systems. You can still FaceTime from iOS 6 if you wanted to, you can still use iCloud in Lion, etc. I do agree that Microsoft does a better job with major programs like Office with backwards support. If you look at Office 2011 for Mac, it will run on Leopard (10.5) to Yosemite (10.10).

Well, they threw the design out the window with iOS 7. I don't hate how Yosemite looks, but I prefer how Mavericks looks. I do hate how iOS 7 looks because it's so inconsistent and full of highly contrasting colors; I installed an iOS 6 icon theme on my iPhone. Apple did a much better job moving to "flat" design with Yosemite than they did with iOS 7.

Yosemite takes iOS 7 and does it right. I think iOS will refine the interface more over subsequent versions.

 

[tevion5]

Well, no-doubt he has seen PPC Macs since 1997, but it seems like he doesn't even know what one is anymore. I know that's his job, since companies are supposed to move forward and not dwell on older products, but I can tell he doesn't value Apple's past. In fact, whatever he is currently pushing with Apple completely disregards anything they have done in the past. I feel like they are trying to rip away from everything else and have the company re-born.

I feel he is under a lot of pressure to push forward at full speed. The moment he starts reminiscing the greatness of the iPod for example, people start to think "Wow, Apple used to be amazing back then".

He has to promote the idea that Cook's Apple can do just as good a job with religious zeal. But of course, I would love if Apple could even release a few security updates for Tiger

----------

Yosemite takes iOS 7 and does it right. I think iOS will refine the interface more over subsequent versions.

Indeed, aesthetically I'm still undecided about iOS, but I really like Yosemite. I think performance has also improved greatly on my 2011 MBP in both Mavericks and Yosemite again. Animation are sleeker, like they were when I was out of the box and running Snow Leopard.

 

[roadbloc]

It isn't like Apple breaks services on older systems.

Um... but they do do that. They do it all the time. They're the worst for it! Try using FaceTime or iMessage on iOS 5. Try accessing the App Store on iOS 4 and below. Try using MobileMe or .Mac or iTools. Try updating OS X through software update on OS X 10.3 and below. Try accessing the iTunes Store on iTunes 8 and below. They ditched compatibility with classic apps in 2003 and then ditched PowerPC apps in 2011. Apple are forever discontinuing their services to push people onto newer software and thus eventually, newer hardware.

Meanwhile in world Microsoft, Windows 98 can use Windows Update just fine. The telephone and online licensing system of Windows XP will probably work forever. All of their older services are available and if not, they've simply been renamed or merged into another service.

 

[128keaton]

Um... but they do do that. They do it all the time. They're the worst for it! Try using FaceTime or iMessage on iOS 5. Try accessing the App Store on iOS 4 and below. Try using MobileMe or .Mac or iTools. Try updating OS X through software update on OS X 10.3 and below. Try accessing the iTunes Store on iTunes 8 and below. They ditched compatibility with classic apps in 2003 and then ditched PowerPC apps in 2011. Apple are forever discontinuing their services to push people onto newer software and thus eventually, newer hardware.

Meanwhile in world Microsoft, Windows 98 can use Windows Update just fine. The telephone and online licensing system of Windows XP will probably work forever. All of their older services are available and if not, they've simply been renamed or merged into another service.

Agreed. You can access the App Store on iOS 3. I agree with you on MobileMe. Why would you stay on 10.3, 10.4 is much more optimized and almost the same from a UI perspective. Agreed.

 

[Altemose]

Um... but they do do that. They do it all the time. They're the worst for it! Try using FaceTime or iMessage on iOS 5. Try accessing the App Store on iOS 4 and below. Try using MobileMe or .Mac or iTools. Try updating OS X through software update on OS X 10.3 and below. Try accessing the iTunes Store on iTunes 8 and below. They ditched compatibility with classic apps in 2003 and then ditched PowerPC apps in 2011. Apple are forever discontinuing their services to push people onto newer software and thus eventually, newer hardware.

Meanwhile in world Microsoft, Windows 98 can use Windows Update just fine. The telephone and online licensing system of Windows XP will probably work forever. All of their older services are available and if not, they've simply been renamed or merged into another service.

The App Store works on iOS 4 devices. You would just be downloading a last compatible version but that is an option afforded to the developer. MobileMe was migrated to iCloud. I agree about Software Update on Panther and older though.