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I'm not really into upgrading older computers. I upgraded my HP tower once by adding a gig of ram and it was a huge nightmare because the case was a disaster inside. It took me a few hours to finally get it in!!! It was the worst designed PC case I have ever seen. Once you start adding more ram, a bigger hard drive, a new graphics card, etc, it gets expensive. In 3 years, with the amount you will spend in upgrades, it's more worth it just to save up for a new machine. my view is that it's not always good to invest in "older" technology. In 3 years I would probably want something new.

Get the 24" iMac, max out the ram (not from Apple), and sell the monitor.
 
Nice, I'll think about the 8 core this week and decide. I was leaning towards the single quad but maybe for future proofing the 8 core would be a better deal now.


Hey JNC you a birmingham supporter? Man Utd here. I was in Manchester 2 yrs ago for a match. It was alot of fun.

Naw I'm a Mutd supporter too (not that I particularly follow footbal, I just enjoy watching their matches)

I live right next to the Birmingham City FC stadium :D
 
IMO Sell your monitor and get an iMac. You can buy 4 gigs of ram from OWC for less then $100 and have a very good comp for gaming, video editing, and any other media you want to be involved in. I'm not sure why everyone puts the iMac down. It's a very capable machine, it just doesn't have an upgradeable video card and as far as hard drives go you can keep adding externals without much loss in function. I have three OWC mac ministacks linked by FW800 that are 1.5TB combined. I use them and my MBP for video editing without any dropped frames while the disk are spinning.
 
IMO Sell your monitor and get an iMac. You can buy 4 gigs of ram from OWC for less then $100 and have a very good comp for gaming, video editing, and any other media you want to be involved in. I'm not sure why everyone puts the iMac down. It's a very capable machine, it just doesn't have an upgradeable video card and as far as hard drives go you can keep adding externals without much loss in function. I have three OWC mac ministacks linked by FW800 that are 1.5TB combined. I use them and my MBP for video editing without any dropped frames while the disk are spinning.

Fixed, glossy screen with no inputs. That's what puts me off the iMac - I only have the space for one display unit that needs to drive multiple devices.
 
When looking for upgradability people usually are only concerned in upgrading the hard drive and RAM. Which are rather easy in the iMac. Besides the almost useless PCIe slots the Mac Pro is no more upgradable then an iMac.

It's actually not 'rather easy' to upgrade the hard drive in the iMac. You need a glass suction device as you first need to remove the glass from the screen in order to get into where the hard drive is.

I wouldn't envy this at all. The only 'easy' option would be external drives, which is no different from any laptop or mac mini
 
You want a quad core Mac Pro with 8800 that is priced like an iMac. Not going to happen. This machine costs more than iMac, well, because its more powerful than the iMac.
Well, the "problem" is that the MacPros are built using what's basically a server platform. Sure, it's capable, but unless you want a multi processor system it is going to be a major waste of money. Consider this:

LianLi PC7 mid tower
Corsair HX520W
Core 2 Quad Q9450 (12MB L2, 2.66GHz)
Scythe Ninja rev. B CPU cooler
4GB DDR2-800
Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3 (Intel P35 based motherboard)
GeForce 8800GT 512MB
RealTek ALC889A HD Audio
Samsung SpinPoint 320GB SATA
Samsung DVD-RW SATA
Logitech Ultra-X Premium keyboard
Microsoft Comfort Optical Mouse 3000
Windows Vista Home Premium 64-bit

That's a complete, high-quality PC system (sans monitor). No "cheapo" parts. The 4-core MacPro is 84% more expensive than this machine. Sure, the PC isn't pre-assembled (I only picked out the components), but even if you want the store to put it together for you, you're still looking at a 60%+ price premium for the MacPro.

What I'm trying to say is that:

1. For someone wanting a 4-core system, the MacPro is a very expensive solution.

2. Apple could easily build a high quality mid tower system with the same performance as the 4-core MacPro and sell it for iMac prices.

The only reason Apple doesn't offer a tower like this is because it doesn't fit their business modell. Building a machine that competes with the 4-core MacPro for 60% of the price is the easy part, fitting it into the product line-up is probably what's difficult.
 
That's a complete, high-quality PC system (sans monitor). No "cheapo" parts. The 4-core MacPro is 84% more expensive than this machine. Sure, the PC isn't pre-assembled (I only picked out the components), but even if you want the store to put it together for you, you're still looking at a 60%+ price premium for the MacPro.

Did you include tax for the Mac Pro? With Apple's retail presence, it's pretty much a given that you will have to pay tax in most states now, while you will pay none when buying parts off Newegg (unless you live in CA, in which case you can order from somewhere else).
 
Well, the "problem" is that the MacPros are built using what's basically a server platform. Sure, it's capable, but unless you want a multi processor system it is going to be a major waste of money. Consider this:
....<list of parts>...

That's a complete, high-quality PC system (sans monitor). No "cheapo" parts. The 4-core MacPro is 84% more expensive than this machine. Sure, the PC isn't pre-assembled (I only picked out the components), but even if you want the store to put it together for you, you're still looking at a 60%+ price premium for the MacPro.

What I'm trying to say is that:

1. For someone wanting a 4-core system, the MacPro is a very expensive solution.

2. Apple could easily build a high quality mid tower system with the same performance as the 4-core MacPro and sell it for iMac prices.

The only reason Apple doesn't offer a tower like this is because it doesn't fit their business modell. Building a machine that competes with the 4-core MacPro for 60% of the price is the easy part, fitting it into the product line-up is probably what's difficult.

Yes, but how well will these parts interoperate. That's always been a major problem with these cobbled together PCs, it's exceedingly difficult to know if driver issues and other problems that, IMHO, can eat you alive regardless of how good the individual parts are.

I think Apple could create a headless iMac without affecting their product line much, but it would never compete with the prices a "custom" model would have.
 
Did you include tax for the Mac Pro? With Apple's retail presence, it's pretty much a given that you will have to pay tax in most states now, while you will pay none when buying parts off Newegg (unless you live in CA, in which case you can order from somewhere else).
Yep, exactly the same taxes on both machines. I've used swedish prices, which include 25% tax on both the MacPro and the PC. The relative price difference should still be pretty much the same in the US, although both the MacPro and the PC would be much cheaper (due to the weak dollar).

Yes, but how well will these parts interoperate. That's always been a major problem with these cobbled together PCs, it's exceedingly difficult to know if driver issues and other problems that, IMHO, can eat you alive regardless of how good the individual parts are.
With more than 10 years of PC building experience, I'd have to say that compatibility is almost never a problem. Sure, you may get a motherboard that has an immature BIOS or a component with flakey firmware, but compatibility issues because two components don't want to play nice together is not really common. You may want to make sure the RAM works, but even that is usually unnecessary. As long as you buy good components, you're generally in the clear.

That said, if you'd buy the system above from a store and have them build it, they're responsible to make it work before you get it. And as for this system, I know for a fact that those parts play very nice together. :)
 
Macs have never been, and are never going to be easily upgradeable. Think of them as computing appliances. You wouldn't upgrade your microwave oven or toaster, would you? No, you use them until they wear out and then buy new ones.

I don't have any toasters or microwaves with 8 RAM slots and 4 PCI-E slots, 4 hard drive slots, and two optical drive slots! A base-config Mac Pro has 13 open expansion ports, plus a place for bluetooth and airport.

If that isn't intended to be easily upgradable, then why are all of those slots there to begin with?

By giving us all of those open slots, Apple is explicitly marketing towards people who expect to buy upgrades.

You have to realize that you can take a 6-year old mid-range PC (athlon 2500 era) and replace the optical drive, the RAM, and the GPU with (now very cheap) newer models for about 150-200 dollars, and triple the "gaming" potential of that machine.

I had an old athlon 2500+ with a 9600 graphics card, 512 mb of ram and a 24x cd burner.

for under 200 dollars, it got a cheap 6600gt graphics card that's easily 2x the speed, a 2gb chip of RAM bumped it up into 2.5gb range, which is enough for any game out now, and a new 16x dvd burner. The processor isn't good at video encoding, but it is very good at video DEcoding with that graphics chip, and I can play most current games pretty well. Original investment in 2002=600 bucks. 200 bucks more in 2007 for upgrades. Toss in a 300gb hard drive i bought for storage and ended up using as the system drive in 2006, and i've got a system that handles everything up to and including COD4 quite well as long as i keep the resolution at 720p. Crysis and Bioshock are too slow to be enjoyable at that resolution. Crysis is insane, though, and doesn't run well on brand new 2000 dollar systems, so I don't feel bad about that one.

i regularly see 200 fps in HL2 now. When the machine was first built, I never saw more than 100 fps, and it would dip down into the 20s when i had DX9 settings all turned on.

upgradability is important for a lot of people...even mac users. PCI-E is not going anywhere anytime soon. SATA isn't either. processor upgrades don't matter as much as they used to. As long as you can add ram and more/faster storage and faster graphics, you're in a good position to do affordable upgrades in the future that have real value in extending your computer's relevance.
 
Yes, but how well will these parts interoperate. That's always been a major problem with these cobbled together PCs, it's exceedingly difficult to know if driver issues and other problems that, IMHO, can eat you alive regardless of how good the individual parts are.

I think Apple could create a headless iMac without affecting their product line much, but it would never compete with the prices a "custom" model would have.

the stuff you're describing happened in the days before plug-and-play was mature...as in the early to mid 90s.

in this decade, as long as you buy a decent piece of hardware from a reputable manufacturer, and you don't buy the wrong type of RAM or a graphics card with the wrong interface slot, you won't have any issues at all. "these" PCs arent' "cobbled together" at all. You have a case. It has a power supply in it. both of those are almost always ATX-compatible, which means they work together. You get a motherboard for either AMD or Intel and for the processor family you want (Core, Pentium 4, Athlon 64, or whatever). It will also be ATX, and will thus fit into your case and work with the power supply.

You get a processor and plug it in, and put a heat sink on top, which probably came with the processor.

you stick in the RAM in the RAM slots.

You put in the optical drives and connect the cables. Hard drives, too.

Attach any fans or whatever else you might want. Then you plug the motherboard into the power supply.

Add any sound cards or graphics cards by undoing at most 1 screw and plugging them into the obvious slots.

close the case, plug everything in.

turn on the power.

insert install DVD and install the OS. If vista, then when it reboots, it will have gone to windows update and pulled down certified drivers for graphics, audio, etc, and everything will be up and running if you bought good components.

After the first time you do this, it will literally take longer to let the OS install itself from the DVD than it does to put everything together physically from scratch.

It isn't some big mythical, fragile, confusing system. There are many more variables involved when you go to the grocery store, but people seem to manage that just fine without complaining about how "cobbled together" their shopping carts are.

If I could easily build a PC with complete support for OS X from Apple (not actual tech support, but rather just "permission"), I would never buy another Mac machine. I'm not driven very strongly by my ego and what others think about me. I don't need my computer to be shiny and coated in glass and all of that junk. I would prefer it be hidden out of the way except for the screen and the kb/mouse, but a plain black box is fine. I guess that's why Apple isn't ever going to open up OS X. They know people would stop using their hardware. Well, serious people would, anyway.

To argue that apple uses superior hardware is increasingly difficult. With a mac pro, the case is high-quality. The fans are low-noise. The required RAM is server grade (and thus unnecessarily expensive) but everything else is off-the shelf.

If you value the mac pro's case at about 300 dollars and the PSU at about 150 dollars, then pretend you can put non-server parts into it and thus get the same performance for considerably less, you end up with a HUGE premium to pay for them to plug some cards into some slots and screw a few things together. It's a bummer.
 
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