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Napster at University of Rochester

Re: Re: Re: Two Mac OS Alternatives:

Originally posted by greenstork
iTunes, as it is currently configured, find music via rendezvous by searching the local subnet. Many universities have numerous subnets for different sections of campus, dorms, etc. In order to do what you're talking about, one of two things would have to happen.
1. Either the university would have to reconfigure its whole network, highly unlikely. or
2. Apple would have to modify iTunes, also unlikely.

However, some universities have one large subnet, which enables dozens, if not hundreds of shared music folder in iTunes.

One thing interesting about Napster is their willingness to feature music from university students on their service. Apple could stand to learn something from that.
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Well, as I was intending to suggest that this be made available to the dorms (i.e. the specific subnet(s) for the dorms), as that's where the real target audience is, I don't see how your point is valid.

In any event, I'll grant that this isn't a simple solution. The ability for the universities to access the Apple servers would not be a trivial hurdle. But, if that hurdle could be overcome, I'd think that the streaming on the networks (i.e. subnets) would be trivial, by comparison.
 
I like the idea of using iTunes sharing to let everyone listen over the lan but not have. The way iTunes sharing works is basically the same as what these schools napster works. You can listen but you can't have it. The problem is, would the labels have a fit if Apple started giving away their music without selling it? If so, are the labels going to get mad at napster for doing it? Apple could definitely set up its own sharing server at colleges around the country. Weather it would have music on it or just link to Apple's store over the internet, it would pop right up in everyone's itunes, they could pipe it into every subnet (that they wanted to) relatively easily. I don't think that would be very hard at all and it seems like it might definitely be something Apple missed the ball on.
 
Originally posted by rdowns
Yes, except in this version, the girl exposed her right breast.
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Did she then lick it? That'd be cool. She does have rather large ones.
 
Originally posted by Einherjar
As the submitter of the story, I've got to say that this is a sad day for Apple. This is the first *private institution* to secure such a deal, and that's why we're not hearing much on who is ultimately paying for this (I wouldn't be surprised if the unnamed contributor for the money happened to be a Napster investor or someone in general from the Napster camp). Either way, there's no current cost to the students.




What sucks about this deal is that in this plan, we can't do anything with our music except stream it at our computers--we're treated like criminals. We cannot even use music files from the service in audio apps or videos for our own personal educational use, which makes this a huge letdown for students.
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First paragraph, "There's no current cost to students."

Second paragraph,"What sucks about this deal is that in this plan, we can't do anything with our music except stream it at our computers--we're treated like criminals. "

Why are you being treated like a criminal? You can stream all the music ou want for free. You want them to allow downloading too? Maybe the local Best Buy should just let student walk in and take all the CDs they want. Give me a break. Like students, or anyone else for that mater, could be trusted not to d/l illegally. I've said this before on this forum, where does this sense of entitlement come from?

As for audio and video for your projects, there are many public domain sources available. Something you really want to use that's not in the public domain, write and get permission.
 
Apple Stores are moving into Universities.

"UCLA - the University of California, Los Angeles will host the first in a series of mini-retail stores to be built at selected locations. The store will most likely be inside the Ackerman Student Union building in the center of campus."

http://www.ifoapplestore.com/stores/chronology.html

I'm sure a Apple Store will end up in most all CA. Universities.
 
Originally posted by rdowns
First paragraph, "There's no current cost to students."

Second paragraph,"What sucks about this deal is that in this plan, we can't do anything with our music except stream it at our computers--we're treated like criminals. "

Why are you being treated like a criminal? You can stream all the music ou want for free. You want them to allow downloading too? Maybe the local Best Buy should just let student walk in and take all the CDs they want. Give me a break. Like students, or anyone else for that mater, could be trusted not to d/l illegally. I've said this before on this forum, where does this sense of entitlement come from?

As for audio and video for your projects, there are many public domain sources available. Something you really want to use that's not in the public domain, write and get permission.
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Nothing is ever free. Someone or some company is footing the bill. If the University is footing the bill it's coming from the students tuition. If it's from Napster then they are losing money to gain mindshare.
 
Originally posted by ITR 81
Nothing is ever free. Someone or some company is footing the bill. If the University is footing the bill it's coming from the students tuition. If it's from Napster then they are losing money to gain mindshare.
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If its napster then it really is free. Regardless i think Apple has a great opportunity here to do the same thing with the iTMS.
 
Originally posted by Photorun
So you're saying choice is a BAD thing and lack of choice is a good thing? Clarify or are you that much of a (remembers forum rules) ... uh, thinker like that?
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I suppose I should have written my post in english to make it understandable. Oh, wait, it is english! Do _you_ understand english? I did not even hint at the idea that choice is bad!

How many cafeterias/restaurants/fast food places do you know that offer Coke and Pepsi side by side?
The point is that, in this case, the choice (and choosing) happens at a higher level, not the user level. That is just how it is. The University admin holds the money bag (though it is the student's $$), they decide who gets to put their hands into it. Napster probably had a better offer for their needs than others (incl. iTunes), or maybe the Admin didn't look around and Napster came to them with a good offer. Either way, the suits have and make the decision, not the student!
It's up to Apple's iTunes to put together deals that are attractive and market them to these one solution shoppers like Universities.
 
Originally posted by vitrector
... The point is that, in this case, the choice (and choosing) happens at a higher level, not the user level. ...
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How Microsoftian. Like at a corporation, where the IT department chooses Windows, no matter what the users may want. Or like at a dictatorship. Like in the Soviet Union. What a great lesson for an educational institution to teach students.

Of course academia is still heavily Stalinistic and elitist at heart. "Academic freedom" is an oxymoron.
 
Originally posted by Snowy_River
Well, there is the matter of the fact that this choice is discriminating against the Mac users on campus. Before anyone starts quoting my 3% market share, I'd encourage someone to look up what the market share among college students is. I don't have a link, but about a year or so ago I saw a stat that had it at around 20%. Now that's a very significant minority to be flaunting....

"Come to our school, but only if you use Windows..."
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You are then saying the admin (or whoever) made a bad choice, it does not serve the students well. They should choose for a cross platform solution. However, even with the estimated 20% mac market share on campus, they are still serving the majority of students. They may have considered it and decided that it is OK, at least they are offering something legal. (and maybe I am giving them too much credit!?)

The critisim lies with the decision made, but perhaps it was the only choice they had (I am unaware of iTunes having any plans for streaming music, which is apparently key to this kind of deal/solution).

BTW: I personnally would be outraged if I attended that University, as I _would_ feel discriminated against.
 
Well maybe, if apple comes out with its own iTMS for schools like this, they can sell it not only to all the other schools, but maybe they can sell it to the napster schools too, so students really will have a choice. Wowee
 
Why should schools feel as though it is their responsibility to promote an easy path to legal music downloads? Must be a CYA kind of thing to avoid future lawsuits. I just don't get it.
 
As an alum of UR, all I have to say is, forget any future donations from me.

Oh...and just so we're clear on this, NOTHING is free.

Napster sucks.
 
in this situation napster is essentially music on demand, kinda like cable. as steve has said, there really are no profits to be had from itms, so why would apple ever consider doing something like napster?
 
BEAUSE the idea is once people are already using your software, when they wanna buy, they are going to use YOU, not download and install a completely new software/service.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Two Mac OS Alternatives:

Originally posted by Snowy_River
Well, as I was intending to suggest that this be made available to the dorms (i.e. the specific subnet(s) for the dorms), as that's where the real target audience is, I don't see how your point is valid.

In any event, I'll grant that this isn't a simple solution. The ability for the universities to access the Apple servers would not be a trivial hurdle. But, if that hurdle could be overcome, I'd think that the streaming on the networks (i.e. subnets) would be trivial, by comparison.
Click to expand...

I'm still not sure you get my point. Some universities have each dorm on a different subnet, so instead of having (potentially) thousands of students iTunes libraries to choose from (throughout the entire dorm system),a given dorm may only have a few hundred students, or less, necessitating a network reorganization on the part of many universities to make the type of widespread sharing you suggest possible.

If you think a university IT department is going to reorganize their networks for the purpose of sharing music, you're in la la land.

edit: It is important to understand that iTunes sharing DOES NOT WORK across different subnets. If they were to add that feature, you could share across the whole internet, which, as you'll recall, was removed in version 4.0.1 of iTunes.
 
But I'm sure theres a way you could 'tunnel' a connection to a local iTunes server to each subnet without actually joining each network directly.
 
Originally posted by l008com
But I'm sure theres a way you could 'tunnel' a connection to a local iTunes server to each subnet without actually joining each network directly.
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I'm sorry to say, that's just not how rendezvous works. What you're suggesting is simply not possible without significantly altering rendezvous or how sharing works in iTunes. IMO, to remove rendezvous in favor of a different sharing technology seems like a monumental task and highly unlikely.

Bear in mind that sharing doesn't work off the Apple server, it works by finding other iTunes shared music folders on your local network. What you're suggesting is a wholesale change to iTunes. May be you can pass that off as an easy modification but I'm sure that Apple sees things differently.

Otherwise you're suggesting reorganizing a university computer network for the purpose of sharing music and IMO, this is unlikely.
 
Originally posted by rdowns
First paragraph, "There's no current cost to students."
....
As for audio and video for your projects, there are many public domain sources available. Something you really want to use that's not in the public domain, write and get permission.
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Uhh, have you ever heard of a concept of fair use? Educational uses in a private institution, not for public performance...

We are being treated like the criminal college-students we are--streaming sucks and removes any sort of notion of fair use, and on top of that, we can't even listen to the music away from the computer. Now, some people don't mind that, but a large portion here with iPods do. I realize that Napster cannot give us unlimited low-cost downloads, and I never, ever said they would just give us everything "free" as in your Best-Buy analogy. I would have preferred some kind of quota system of a set number of songs+the streaming audio that comes with the subscription service to keep the student straight when quota is reached. However, this would be costly and adds a whole new dimension to the problem.

*snip*

Additionally, this is being funded from an *outside donation*. Even if it were being footed by the University for the time being, I don't feel charged for anything because they already HAVE my money. No one will care until they impose a fee on the tuition involving the music service issue (either Napster or iTunes). Should I feel cheated when they give maintenance a raise even though they didn't tack a special amount for it onto my tuition? They bungle operations with our tuition all the time, tis the way of any University. Yeah, it sucks, but no one will give a rat's ass unless the school actually tacks it onto the actual listed tuition.
 
Originally posted by l008com
...The problem is, would the labels have a fit if Apple started giving away their music without selling it? If so, are the labels going to get mad at napster for doing it? Apple could definitely set up its own sharing server at colleges around the country...
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Well, I don't think that we'd be talking about this being free, any more than the Napster service is free. The universities would be paying Apple for being able to stream music onto their networks.
 
Originally posted by vitrector
...How many cafeterias/restaurants/fast food places do you know that offer Coke and Pepsi side by side?...
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Yes, but there isn't a matter of Pepsi is compatible with some cups and Coke is compatible with others. Restaurants know that most people who drink Coke will drink Pepsi if that's the only option their given. So, this is a bit of a different situation...

Originally posted by cubist
How Microsoftian. Like at a corporation, where the IT department chooses Windows, no matter what the users may want...
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This is a little bit of a poor example. While I've worked places where the IT department makes such a decision, I also know that this isn't an absolute decision that needs to be made. Most up-to-date IT departments know that Macs and PCs play pretty well together on networks, so there's no reason not to have a cross platform environment.

...Of course academia is still heavily Stalinistic and elitist at heart. "Academic freedom" is an oxymoron.
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Uh... I'd have to disagree, and take mild offense at your choice of phrasing. Academic freedom is very much a reality, if you know what it is that you're talking about...
 
Originally posted by greenstork
I'm sorry to say, that's just not how rendezvous works. What you're suggesting is simply not possible without significantly altering rendezvous or how sharing works in iTunes. IMO, to remove rendezvous in favor of a different sharing technology seems like a monumental task and highly unlikely.

Bear in mind that sharing doesn't work off the Apple server, it works by finding other iTunes shared music folders on your local network. What you're suggesting is a wholesale change to iTunes. May be you can pass that off as an easy modification but I'm sure that Apple sees things differently.

Otherwise you're suggesting reorganizing a university computer network for the purpose of sharing music and IMO, this is unlikely.
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I don't think you get the idea. Figure a server on a network, that would appear as a simple iTunes program to other iTunes programs on the network. That way everyone on that network that had itunes would see this 'server' in ther shared music list. Now through what i think might be as easy as port mapping between networks, all subnets could all use the same single 'iTunes server' This iTunes server would most likely be a single xServe with software that would act like a bridge between the iTunes Music Store and a local iTunes sharing network. I don't think it would be anywhere near as hard as you suggest.
 
Originally posted by vitrector
...The critisim lies with the decision made, but perhaps it was the only choice they had (I am unaware of iTunes having any plans for streaming music, which is apparently key to this kind of deal/solution).

BTW: I personnally would be outraged if I attended that University, as I _would_ feel discriminated against.
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Yeah, I'm criticizing the decision. If I was attending one of those schools, I'd be faced with the knowledge that money was being spent for an elective entertainment service that only benefits some of the students.

On the question of 80% being benefitted, I'd question this. Based on the undergrads that I know, I'd say that the numbers are more like

Mac 20%
Linux 5%
Windows 45%
No Computer 30%

So, if this is anything close to reality, then only about half the student body would benefit from a service such as this...
 
Originally posted by l008com
I don't think you get the idea. Figure a server on a network, that would appear as a simple iTunes program to other iTunes programs on the network. That way everyone on that network that had itunes would see this 'server' in ther shared music list. Now through what i think might be as easy as port mapping between networks, all subnets could all use the same single 'iTunes server' This iTunes server would most likely be a single xServe with software that would act like a bridge between the iTunes Music Store and a local iTunes sharing network. I don't think it would be anywhere near as hard as you suggest.
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This is much like one of the plans my group and I proposed, a central server for streaming/downloading music from the store via a university-side modified iTunes proxy running on Apple hardware.

We had to propose things because Apple wasn't helping us at all, and of course, the proposals failed because Apple wasn't helping us at all. :-/
 
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