NAS or Mac Mini Server.....

[0388279]

For everyone that has replied, I have for the moment decided to go the Mac Mini route (1.4 GHz/4 GB). It seem to me the this had more computing power than any of the reasonably priced NAS boxes (think QNAP TS-453 Pro or DS415+). One of the factors that was important to me was that I would like to continue to use Logitech Media Server as I could run it on Mini but not on any of the NAS boxes I was considering.

So what has been my experience with the 2014 Mac Mini that I was hoping was going to be the best server option. I wanted to start my exploration with having a reliable networked Time Machine solution.

I began solution with the following configuration:Router ASUS RT-AC68U, 1.4 GHz Mini connected to the router running OS X server, and the WD Duo configured in RAID 1. Time Machine backups worked well in this configuration. However, when I learned that if I lost a drive on the Duo and it might take as long as week replace to rebuild the RAID 1 and have a computer tied up for week. I decided to change to JBOD.

With the Duo configured as JBOD and partitioned for each of the Mac laptops and Mini I was able to get initial Time Machine back-ups (i had the back-ups configured so that Time Machine back-ups would alternate between drives). Unfortunately, one of the Time Machine of the back-ups would ultimately become corrupted within a day or so and I would have to start over.

I thought maybe the issue was the WD Duo. So I went out and purchased two free standing drives that were connected via the USB ports on the Mini. I had the same issues with eventual corruption of the back-ups and had to start over.

After three weeks of Mini/OSX Server managing Time Machine back-ups I have concluded that networked Time Machine backups are not the way to go. if you want to use Time Machine for back-ups, the drive must be connected to your computer that you are backing up for any reliability.

I think what I find so disappointing about the Mini/OSX Server is how it stacks up against a 2008 HP MediaSmart Home Server running Window Home Server with it's single core 2.0 GHZ Celeron processor that I would like to replace because it's advancing age. While I am unable perform to Time Machine back-ups with the WHS, the Mini is not even 10% of the WHS machine.

Next strategy is to go back to a NAS for major storage and running Chronosync to maintain important files. Also, will continue with weekly Time Machine back-ups on a couple of portable drives that I will connect directly to my laptops.

Donald Barar

 

[Osamede]

Were you connected to the router by wired or wireless?

 

[0388279]

Hi O,

The initial back-ups were performed wired. Subsequent back-ups that eventually failed were performed wireless. Failure modes were either a 1) Perform new back-up to ensure data integrity or 2) Back-up stalled.

Don

 

[talmy]

Hi O,

The initial back-ups were performed wired. Subsequent back-ups that eventually failed were performed wireless. Failure modes were either a 1) Perform new back-up to ensure data integrity or 2) Back-up stalled.

Don

I've used TimeMachine on a server for about 6 years and have found it somewhat but not perfectly reliable. But then I haven't found TimeMachine perfect when directly connected either. Like any backup scheme, redundancy is important. I use a combination of SuperDuper!, TimeMachine, and Crashplan so when TimeMachine fails I've got two other backups.

It seems to be issues with integrity of the sparse bundle disk images that gets me every time when the TimeMachine image is on the network.

 

[Osamede]

I haven't done backups but my experience with heavy duty file transfers with macs on home wireless (mac mini, mac laptops, is that its fairly buggy and there are often failures that pop up error codes.

I have never experience this on wireless at work where I also use Mac, so I suspect it might have to do with the stability of network actions and or authentication.

 

[0388279]

I just got the impression that there was very little in the way of fault tolerancing with Time Machine wireless back-ups. If the slightest thing went wrong then the entire set of Time Machine back-ups were of no use. Of course, the issue might have been that I was using a non-Apple router. Not certain. But I am not replacing the router to find out.

 

[talmy]

I just got the impression that there was very little in the way of fault tolerancing with Time Machine wireless back-ups. If the slightest thing went wrong then the entire set of Time Machine back-ups were of no use.

A correct impression. Actually there seems to be little fault tolerancing with Time Machine no matter how you use it. There's plenty of advice on the Internet about how to recover from broken Time Machine backups.

 

[ctyrider]

I am considering replacing with the following: 1) a four bay NAS, or 2) Mac Mini operating OSX Server with a 4 bay enclosure attached to the Mac Mini.

Recognizing that the Mac Mini option is likely to be a little more costly, in your opinion what is better way to go and why?

Neither. Build a Hackintosh. It will cost less and will easily exceed both Mac Mini and NAS in functionality and performance.

It may take a bit off upfront effort, but not a lot, if you're even mildly technically proficient.

 

[Osamede]

Neither. Build a Hackintosh. It will cost less and will easily exceed both Mac Mini and NAS in functionality and performance.

It may take a bit off upfront effort, but not a lot, if you're even mildly technically proficient.

The challenge is of course building one as quiet. I'd consider doing this. Any detailed recommendations?

 

[ctyrider]

The challenge is of course building one as quiet. I'd consider doing this. Any detailed recommendations?

Mine is a headless system that sits in a garage, so I never cared about building it quiet. Do some searches on tonymacx86 and you will find plenty of advise on building a quiet system.

 

[lowendlinux]

The challenge is of course building one as quiet. I'd consider doing this. Any detailed recommendations?

Spend money on fans and larger than you need coolers. Check out silent pc review they are a wealth of information

 

[Osamede]

I tried building this just as a PC (not Hackintosh) and my conclusion was that you basically cannot replicate the quietness and drive capaciity of the Mac Mini - up to 2012 at least - in anything near the size of it. So I just went out and bought one instead.

Sure, if you want to stick one in your garage who cares. But for one box in your living room, this thing is impossible to beat.

 

[ctyrider]

I tried building this just as a PC (not Hackintosh) and my conclusion was that you basically cannot replicate the quietness and drive capaciity of the Mac Mini - up to 2012 at least - in anything near the size of it. So I just went out and bought one instead.

Sure, if you want to stick one in your garage who cares. But for one box in your living room, this thing is impossible to beat.

I have Apple TVs in my rooms with TVs (nothing beats that in terms of quietness), and Hackintosh in the garage acts as a Home Sharing server.

Mini is extremely poor value as far as price / performance. And you need to supplement it with an external drive enclosure, as its internal storage capacity doesn't cut it as a media server. My Hackintosh is an all-in-one box, and it costs less than a stand alone NAS

 

[Osamede]

I have Apple TVs in my rooms with TVs (nothing beats that in terms of quietness), and Hackintosh in the garage acts as a Home Sharing server.

Mini is extremely poor value as far as price / performance. And you need to supplement it with an external drive enclosure, as its internal storage capacity doesn't cut it as a media server. My Hackintosh is an all-in-one box, and it costs less than a stand alone NAS

You're jumping around with circular reasoning.

Also not mentioning that the Apple TV-as-player solution is a straightjacket: it requires you to either buy content from Apple only or to formal your files in Mp4/M4V only....and to use Itunes as your only means of playing them.

If your player is a proper PC then you are open to any wide range of solutions: eg Kodi, PLEX, VLC etc. You pick and chose what you want. No limits.

Re: the choices, the situation is actually like this:
- A NAS has large capacity, can be cheap or expensive but is generally puny and can be noisy
- The hackintosh has large capacity, but likely noisy, which is why you exiled it to your garage
- The Mac Mini is basically silent, but pricy and tops out at 4TB internal storage

There are pluses and minuses to them - you takes your choices.

For what it's worth you can easily stick up to 2x Samsung/Seagate Spinpoint 2TB 2.5" HDD inside the Mac Mini:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1421-page6.html
http://www.storagereview.com/samsung_spinpoint_m9t_hard_drive_review
That's up to 4TB inside the thing, local. File access and operational speeds very good if your usage is media PC/HTPC.

Plus you can add a silent fanless enclosure for one or two more of those 2TB 2.5" drives. I've had one of these (Elite Al Pro Dual Mini) with my Mac Mini under my TV for a few years now, first with the 2010 Mac Mini or firewire 800 and now on 2012 Mac Mini using firewire-thunderbolt adapter:
http://www.macworld.com/article/1159623/owcmercuryelitealprodualmini.html.
Similarly there are ones like these:
http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Newer Technology/MSMX0GB
http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Newer Technology/MSQKIT0GB/SPECS

All in all, for me personally with that combination of silence and local capacity, I can't see bothering with a NAS.

 

[ctyrider]

You're jumping around with circular reasoning.

Also not mentioning that the Apple TV-as-player solution is a straightjacket: it requires you to either buy content from Apple only or to formal your files in Mp4/M4V only....and to use Itunes as your only means of playing them.

If your player is a proper PC then you are open to any wide range of solutions: eg Kodi, PLEX, VLC etc. You pick and chose what you want. No limits.

Not sure what "circular reasoning" you're talking about. I am not trying to convince you or anyone else in anything - just describing the setup I have, and that works well for me. I prefer "fat backend server" (Hackintosh) and "thin frontend clients" (ATVs) setup for a variety of reasons, but other setups are perfectly valid as well.

And as far as "ATV only allowing Apple or iTunes content" - well, that's just plain inaccurate. Even before latest ATV4 - there is a wide variety of supported content - Netflix, Podcasts, HBO, ESPN, etc. ATV4 adds an App Store, with Hulu, Plex, and even Kodi can be side loaded as well.

So your assertion that the best media player must be a "proper PC" is rather outdated. I stopped hooking up computers to my TVs many years ago. To each their own though.

 

[Osamede]

- You're now mostly talking about forking your wallet over for streaming content, as opposed to playing files or rips you already have and own, which is why anyone would have a NAS
- If you want Netflix or other streaming, you dont need a NAS or media PC to "backend" since its coming from outside your home anyway
- Also sideloading or hacking is is not possible on all versions of Apple TV and is still a double step compared to simply playing the file off on your PC in the first place

 

[LumbermanSVO]

I bought a Drobo FS many years ago, and it worked pretty well, except for being pretty slow. Then not too long out of warranty something went wrong with it and it would no longer recognize some drives. I lost a LOT of data. After a bunch of research, I learned that the shortcomings were mostly Drobo issues, not NAS issues.

A bit over a year ago I wanted to backup my MacBook(2009) on my home network again, and use it to serve media to my ATV. I wanted much more control over my data than I had from the Drobo, but with the same ease of setup, also rackmount. I wound up purchasing a 2014 base model MacMini. The UI was agonizingly slow with the HDD, so I swapped it for a SSD I had laying around, problem solved.

For awhile I had four WD 2TB Passport drives plugged in, one for iTunes and one for Time Machine and all other media. I used SuperDuper to mirror them nightly to the other two drives. When I went on work trips, I'd grab the two main drives and take them with. This setup worked pretty well for about 8 months, then one of those drives failed, luckily I didn't lose any data. But it did get me thinking about my drive strategy.

I put the Mini in the Sonnet rackmount enclosure, bought some rackmount power strips and a rack. I started looking at rackmount Thunderbolt enclosures, but those get stupid expensive really quickly. So I settled for the Sonnet rackmount USB 3 enclosure as the price was more reasonable.

(Power on the left, Data on the right)

I had my first hiccup with it yesterday, we had a very brief loss of power at the house. One of those that was short enough to barely notice, but long enough that all the sensitive electronics turned off/rebooted. The RAID didn't mount when the Mini rebooted. I unplugged the USB cable and plugged it back in, nothing. I turned the RAID off for a couple seconds and turned it back on, and all was well again. This is an issue I'll have to find a solution for as I'm on a road a LOT and may need into that drive. I think maybe a HomeKit outlet will do the trick. Also, a UPS.

The whole setup has been great. It was running for 3 months before the power glitch. I put a bandaid on the noise by putting the rack in my walk in closet. My network Time Machine backups work flawlessly, iTunes and Plex run 24/7 and no one in the house(4 other users) has reported any issues getting content. I have 6TB of useable space on the RAID, and it gets a nightly backup to a single 6TB drive. This year I'll add a second RAID array to replace the single 6TB drive, most likely another Sonnet as this one works great.

I'm getting 195MB/s write and 238MB/s read speeds from the Mini itself. From my MBP I get 8MB read and write over Wifi. I get 103MB/s write and 80MB/s read over a wired connection through an OWC Thunderbolt dock. Last night I did an initial Time Machine backup with my new MacBook Pro over Wifi and it took about 7 hours for 141GB. For the last week I've been doing the initial backup of the Mini and RAID to Amazon AWS servers with Arq and it's been going smoothly. Arq picked up right where it left off after the power glitch. Only 2.4TB to go!

I use a Roku stick in the hotels when I travel and it has no problem grabbing Plex content from the Mini. I use Screens to remote desktop into it when I need to do any admin stuff. It's much more reliable and faster than OS X remote desktop. Plus, I can get into it from my iPhone or iPad if needed.

This weekend I plan to learn how to setup the Mini as a VPN, though I'll rarely ever need it.

The real test will be in a couple months when I leave on tour and won't be home for almost four months.

I use a 15 foot USB 3 cable and 7-port Anker USB hub to charge/sync/backup my iOS devices at my bedside:

 

[Weaselboy]

(Power on the left, Data on the right)

Nice wiring job there! If it was me as soon as I tied down the last zip tie, I would find that one last cable I forgot to include and have to cut them all off.

P.S. Amazon Echo FTW!

 

[LumbermanSVO]

Nice wiring job there! If it was me as soon as I tied down the last zip tie, I would find that one last cable I forgot to include and have to cut them all off.

P.S. Amazon Echo FTW!

That happened more than once! But I have LOTS of zip ties, I love zip ties. I think the next time I dig into it I'll switch to velcro straps instead of zip ties though.

A couple days ago I modded the Echo, I added an audio out so it can plug into the subwoofer it's sitting on.

 

[ctyrider]

- You're now mostly talking about forking your wallet over for streaming content, as opposed to playing files or rips you already have and own, which is why anyone would have a NAS
- If you want Netflix or other streaming, you dont need a NAS or media PC to "backend" since its coming from outside your home anyway

It's not an "either / or" thing. I have a backend server to host my own content and various movie/music rips. I use online streaming (Netflix/Hulu) to access a bunch of content I don't have locally.

And yes I pay a few bucks to Netflix, but it's well worth saving the trouble of torrenting/ripping/encoding/storing content myself. As time goes on, I find myself doing more and more of online streaming.. And the whole "HTPC" becomes more and more a thing of the past.

- Also sideloading or hacking is is not possible on all versions of Apple TV and is still a double step compared to simply playing the file off on your PC in the first place

Side loading can (obviously) only be possible on the version of ATV that supports apps. But anyway it's not necessary with Plex app fully supported and available in ATV App Store. That is if you're one of those people who still torrents AVI files (yikes).

 

[Osamede]

Ah yes, the old "torrent" bogeyman. Not all that interesting to those of us that have been buying and ripping discs for a couple decades. And have every right to have them accessible for the family. But no, apparently we should all line up like sheep to pay - again - to stream them again. And there is no container in the world ever other than M4V and Itunes?

Seriously? Save the corporate propaganda for kids.

The solution you are talking about is not about user control, it is about being taken. You set up your own PC to use what you have, not to be a "subscriber" being tapped into.

 

[0388279]

Hi Lumberman:

You made the following statement:

"Last night I did an initial Time Machine backup with my new MacBook Pro over Wifi and it took about 7 hours for 141GB"

This is where I failed. I would make my first Time Machine back-up wired to the router (ASUS RT-AC68U) managed by 2014 Mini/OSX Server. This almost always worked. For the most part, subsequent wireless Time Machine back-ups also proceeded flawlessly. But then all of sudden something would go awry (usually within a day) and I was no longer able to complete a wireless Time Machine back-up because of a hang-up or just a general failure. I finally concluded this was had to do with lack of fault tolerance associated with Time Machine or a router issue.

What router are you using? What do you think you can attribute your success in being able to consistently obtain wireless Time Machine back-ups?

Donald Barar

 

[LumbermanSVO]

No problem, Donald.

I've been doing the wireless Time Machine backup thing for a couple years now. For the last year or so it's been with the 2014 MacMini and OS X Server backing up a 2009 MacBook. Before that it was a 2006 MacMini running Snow Leopard that was backing up the same MacBook, but to a simple shared drive, no Server App.

The current network is whatever modem/router combo Time Warner gave us with the Wifi turned off. Next up is a current model Airport Extreme, in the rack is a fairly generic TP Link unmanaged 10/100/1000 switch. I added the Airport Extreme a little over a month ago when I got frustrated with a D-Link Wifi router, it needed to be power cycled at least once a day. But even with that router, I still had good backups.

With the old 2006 MacMini the network was a Comcast modem/router, but the Wifi sucked. No one in the house would let me turn off the Wifi and put a good router in, so I just added an Airport Express to it. It had just enough range to get the job done.

I even had good luck with it in my Drobo days, until the Drobo took a dump on me. The Network was a Comcast modem/router with Wifi turned off. An Airport Extreme(shaped mike a MacMini) next to the modem. On the ground floor was an Airport Express connect by ethernet to the extreme and in bridge mode. The 2006 Mac Mini would grab Wifi from the Express and I shared it's ethernet port with the Drobo. The 2009 MacBook would backup to the Drobo just fine in those days too.

It could be a router thing, but I can't confirm that. The most important part for me is that it's reliable, because it drives me insane when my own electronics don't do work properly.

 

[nebo1ss]

So what has been my experience with the 2014 Mac Mini that I was hoping was going to be the best server option. I wanted to start my exploration with having a reliable networked Time Machine solution.

I began solution with the following configuration:Router ASUS RT-AC68U, 1.4 GHz Mini connected to the router running OS X server, and the WD Duo configured in RAID 1. Time Machine backups worked well in this configuration. However, when I learned that if I lost a drive on the Duo and it might take as long as week replace to rebuild the RAID 1 and have a computer tied up for week. I decided to change to JBOD.

With the Duo configured as JBOD and partitioned for each of the Mac laptops and Mini I was able to get initial Time Machine back-ups (i had the back-ups configured so that Time Machine back-ups would alternate between drives). Unfortunately, one of the Time Machine of the back-ups would ultimately become corrupted within a day or so and I would have to start over.

I thought maybe the issue was the WD Duo. So I went out and purchased two free standing drives that were connected via the USB ports on the Mini. I had the same issues with eventual corruption of the back-ups and had to start over.

After three weeks of Mini/OSX Server managing Time Machine back-ups I have concluded that networked Time Machine backups are not the way to go. if you want to use Time Machine for back-ups, the drive must be connected to your computer that you are backing up for any reliability.

I think what I find so disappointing about the Mini/OSX Server is how it stacks up against a 2008 HP MediaSmart Home Server running Window Home Server with it's single core 2.0 GHZ Celeron processor that I would like to replace because it's advancing age. While I am unable perform to Time Machine back-ups with the WHS, the Mini is not even 10% of the WHS machine.

Next strategy is to go back to a NAS for major storage and running Chronosync to maintain important files. Also, will continue with weekly Time Machine back-ups on a couple of portable drives that I will connect directly to my laptops.

Donald Barar

Not sure why you have experienced so much trouble with the time machine backups. I run a Sinology NAS for both file storage and time machine backups and have been running this for at least three years now with no Time machine problems. During this time I upgraded two computers in my house and used the time machine backups to migrate data without any problems. I am running a raid five configuration and was also successful in upgrading all of my disks by failing one at a time and allowing it to rebuild on a new drives which were twice the size. I use off site storage with Crash plan.

 

[0388279]

Not sure why you have experienced so much trouble with the time machine backups. I run a Sinology NAS for both file storage and time machine backups and have been running this for at least three years now with no Time machine problems. During this time I upgraded two computers in my house and used the time machine backups to migrate data without any problems. I am running a raid five configuration and was also successful in upgrading all of my disks by failing one at a time and allowing it to rebuild on a new drives which were twice the size. I use off site storage with Crash plan.

One of the things that I noticed was that with a portioned drive WD Duo running in RAID 1 mode I had no issues with the back-ups. My issues began when I attempted to run the Duo in JBOD and alternated Time Machine back-ups between disks. I experienced the same issues when alternating Time Machine between separate drives. So maybe it was the alternating drives that was the issue.

Are either of you alternating Time Machine back-ups for the same computer to different drives?

Donald Barar