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davecuse said:
That's really fast, I personally think that space exploration is going to see a boom similar to what personal computers have in the past 10 years. It's human nature to explore, history has shown that. I think we're entering a pretty exciting time. If you sit back and just think about everything that's going on right now, it's really mind boggling. The human genome is mapped, nanotechnology, we're moving away from petroleum to a completely renewable power source, information flows as freely as water, I have the world's knowledge at my fingertips.

I tell you... We need a railgun to launch scramjets. The process coud completely bypass chemical rockets in-atmosphere by using geothermal, wind, and solar power to drive the impellers, throwing a scramjet orbiter up to the needed velocity so that it can climb out of the well and dock. If we keep stations over the equator, too, it's a simple matter of launch windows and fine adjustment, rather than entire course changes.
 
thatwendigo said:
I tell you... We need a railgun to launch scramjets. The process coud completely bypass chemical rockets in-atmosphere by using geothermal, wind, and solar power to drive the impellers, throwing a scramjet orbiter up to the needed velocity so that it can climb out of the well and dock. If we keep stations over the equator, too, it's a simple matter of launch windows and fine adjustment, rather than entire course changes.


Maglev launchers would be great, we could lauch into orbit without an engines at all. I'd hate to be in those g forces though.
 
The North American X-15 was a real man's plane.
Highest speed attained: mach 6.7 (about 4,500 MPH)
Highest altitude attained: over 350,000 feet (low Earth orbit)

To put the above figures into perspective, your average commercial airliner might fly at mach 0.82 at 37,000 feet.

All flown by hand by a human pilot. Oh yeah, this was in the 1960's when there were no gee-whiz-super-cool computers. Dangerous doesn't even begin to describe those research missions...

x15.jpg
 
BOMBERS:
Currently, I can think of no way a scramjet can ever replace the B-52 bomber (or any other offensive military aircraft, for that matter). Why? There have been documented cases of high-speed bomb drops where the bombs, instead of dropping out of the bomb bays like they were supposed to, instead hit the high-speed air layer flowing along the skin of the aircraft and bounced back into the bomb bay (and this was on EXISTING bombers). Just think of what would happen with a bomber that cannot travel slower than Mach 6 when it tries to launch a bomb. Just the turbulence created by breaking the smoothness of the aircraft's skin might be enough to wreak havoc on its payload.

External hardpoints are quite possibly also out of the question even if they could withstand Mach 7 air resistance, since in the moments just after release, the air layer running over the hardpoint would break, creating turbulence, and make the payload very difficult to control.

PASSENGER FLIGHTS:
Also, I don't think passenger flights would be at all economical with scramjet technology. Look at the size of the Pegasus rocket in comparison to the scramjet.
Let's make some rough ballpark calculations:
* The X-43A is a couple of feet shorter than a Dodge Viper (check it if you don't believe me)
* Now, scale it up to twice the size of a Learjet, so maybe more than a dozen people can fit in the passenger area.
* Similarly, scale up the booster (currently 17 m long). Assuming we're going to have great leaps in rocket efficiency, cut the proportional size in half.
* A Learjet 35A is about 48 feet long, which translates to 14.6 meters. So, we have a 30-meter-long scramjet, strapped to a booster that's now about 73 meters long, or three-quarters the length of a football field.
* This booster would also need to burn longer, since less acceleration = smaller g-forces on passengers, AND it would need to lift off from the ground. So, you'd actually need a BIGGER booster for passenger flight, even if you reduced the size a tad by making it air-breathing.
* Conclusion: To ferry the same number of passengers as a Learjet, you'd need a two-stage aircraft the length of a football field.
Is that more economical?

Addendum: Also consider that the current setup allows hypersonic flight for a few seconds. Any flight that'll draw customers towards hypersonic flight and away from conventional flight will need to be at least a few hours long. Tack on some more volume and weight for all that extra fuel.

Thus, I think that scramjets have the most promise as globetrotting cruise missiles or reusable spacecraft launch platforms. (Actually, using them cruise missiles probably wouldn't too practical, either, but I won't go into that unless by request)
Imagine a small-payload two-stage space shuttle replacement. Let's say the first stage (the booster) is also reusable. Conceivably, a size range similar to that described above for passenger flight could replace the current space shuttle and smaller rockets, lobbing small-to-mid-sized payloads into orbit. This is actually the only practical use I can think of for rocket-boosted scramjet craft...

...though it'd be pretty damn cool if they actually built a scramjet passenger craft. :D

GIANT MAGLEV LAUNCHER:
1. Maglev track (a la Shanghai Maglev train)
This is all well and good, but do you remember the massive hurdle the British supersonic car had to overcome? The sound barrier. Breaking the sound barrier with a tiny air layer beneath the car caused an extremely high-pressure wave to travel below the car, threatening to force the car airborne. I actually still don't know how they overcame this, but imagine the same thing but without such a high degree of aerodynamical optimization. (because it's not physically possible, due to the mechanism needed to constrain the projectile to the track) To put it mildly, the engineering involved would be nightmarish.

2. "Giant railgun" (a la BFG)
If a scramjet craft were magnetically launched in a fully enclosed barrel, the track-attachment problem would be solved, since the projectile would just float in the center of the barrel. The actual construction of a 10-mile-long magnet-laden tube (let's assume that this is sufficient) isn't that farfetched, since CERN's Large Hadron Collider is 26.7 km in circumference.
But, there is still the problem of boring a 10-mile-long giant tube AT AN ANGLE into the ground. The only equatorial place I could think of where the logistics wouldn't be staggeringly mind-boggling would be in the Andes. Boring the tunnels into a mountain has a few benefits:
a. Maintenance and rubble-removal tunnels could be bored in the side of the mountain, shortening them.
b. The mouth of the tunnel would be at a higher altitude, meaning thinner air, meaning less air resistance for the projectile to overcome during flight, meaning less energy needed to fire the launcher, meaning cheaper launches.
I think this is a neat idea for scramjet launch assists, acting like a hypersonic catapult.

In summary, I think that scramjet technology would not be economical or practical for currently envisioned application outside of spacecraft launching, and I think that both chemical boosting and maglev catapulting are relatively viable methods.

P.S. - Then again, the scramjet's minimum operational speed would increase on its trip to space, as the air would become thinner, requiring higher compression ratios for scramjet ignition.

Just my two cents.
 
davecuse said:
My fault I guess, sorry everyone.



That's really fast, I personally think that space exploration is going to see a boom similar to what personal computers have in the past 10 years. It's human nature to explore, history has shown that. I think we're entering a pretty exciting time. If you sit back and just think about everything that's going on right now, it's really mind boggling. The human genome is mapped, nanotechnology, we're moving away from petroleum to a completely renewable power source, information flows as freely as water, I have the world's knowledge at my fingertips.

In the big picture of things, I think that we are on the verge of writing names in the history books that will parallel Magellan, Columbus, and Drake. Maybe I'm putting more stock in the space program than I should be, but I don't think so.

Yeah, we are so advanced, 50% of the world has still not made a phone call :rolleyes: and millions still die in silence from malaria while we read hundreds of column inches on a handful dying from SARS, and AIDS is controlled in the West while it threatens to destroy African society - and some machine hits 5000 mph yet still we have no G5 Powerbooks.
 
billyboy said:
Yeah, we are so advanced, 50% of the world has still not made a phone call :rolleyes: and millions still die in silence from malaria while we read hundreds of column inches on a handful dying from SARS, and AIDS is controlled in the West while it threatens to destroy African society - and some machine hits 5000 mph yet still we have no G5 Powerbooks.

In time... anything is possible, someone just has to figure out how. This is one of the most exciting principles behind nanotechnology, it could effectively end disease. Sure it may take a while, but it could definitely happen.
 
just another example of u.s government sponsored money wasting.
how about spending that 250 million dollars to actually help citizens instead of trying to fly faster and faster.
 
hmmm... couldn't you attach a scram jet or ramjet, or jet engine, or somthing big a expensive that provides lots of thurst on a maglev train. Could you have maglevs that went accross the country in 30 minutes? and have a network of them all accross the contenent. It is not like you can run a train into a building or anything. So... I don't think their would have to be that high security.

I dunno... Just a thought.
 
javabear90 said:
hmmm... couldn't you attach a scram jet or ramjet, or jet engine, or somthing big a expensive that provides lots of thurst on a maglev train. Could you have maglevs that went accross the country in 30 minutes? and have a network of them all accross the contenent. It is not like you can run a train into a building or anything. So... I don't think their would have to be that high security.

I dunno... Just a thought.

Errrr... last time I checked, no one has ever even TRIED to break the sound barrier using a maglev, much less travel at Mach 7. And yes, you can put a jet engine on almost anything, a jet-turbine-propelled 18-wheeler cab has jumped the Rio Grande before. So yes, I guess you CAN just stick a bunch of jet engines on a maglev... but what would be the point?

Oh yes, seeing as how high-temperature semiconducting is still in its infancy, barring a MAJOR breakthrough, you won't be seeing transcontinental maglevs (or even interstate maglevs) anytime soon. It's just too expensive to keep a Mississippi of liquid nitrogen cold.

P.S. - pet peeve of mine: *something, *continent, *across, *thrust, *there
 
Was the X-15 air-breathing? Somehow I don't remember it was. Oh well, I'm too lazy to look it up. :D
 
iMook said:
Was the X-15 air-breathing? Somehow I don't remember it was. Oh well, I'm too lazy to look it up. :D

No it was a rocket. The last flight did have a prototype scramjet, but the materials weren't up to par with the temps it had to take and it melted away. Funding was cut for the shuttle, so we never saw a orbital X-15 - which was the next phase of the project....

This is great stuff and the only sad part is that we'll have to wait quite some time before these will ever get to be commercial and fly passengers ....

D
 
iMook said:
Thus, I think that scramjets have the most promise as globetrotting cruise missiles or reusable spacecraft launch platforms. (Actually, using them cruise missiles probably wouldn't too practical, either, but I won't go into that unless by request)
Imagine a small-payload two-stage space shuttle replacement. Let's say the first stage (the booster) is also reusable. Conceivably, a size range similar to that described above for passenger flight could replace the current space shuttle and smaller rockets, lobbing small-to-mid-sized payloads into orbit. This is actually the only practical use I can think of for rocket-boosted scramjet craft...

And somewhat similar to what I'm suggesting, though you're talking about rockets, and I'm talking about magnetic impellers. :cool:

2. "Giant railgun" (a la BFG)
If a scramjet craft were magnetically launched in a fully enclosed barrel, the track-attachment problem would be solved, since the projectile would just float in the center of the barrel. The actual construction of a 10-mile-long magnet-laden tube (let's assume that this is sufficient) isn't that farfetched, since CERN's Large Hadron Collider is 26.7 km in circumference.
But, there is still the problem of boring a 10-mile-long giant tube AT AN ANGLE into the ground. The only equatorial place I could think of where the logistics wouldn't be staggeringly mind-boggling would be in the Andes. Boring the tunnels into a mountain has a few benefits:
a. Maintenance and rubble-removal tunnels could be bored in the side of the mountain, shortening them.
b. The mouth of the tunnel would be at a higher altitude, meaning thinner air, meaning less air resistance for the projectile to overcome during flight, meaning less energy needed to fire the launcher, meaning cheaper launches.
I think this is a neat idea for scramjet launch assists, acting like a hypersonic catapult.

I seem to recall there being a couple of nearly optimal sites listed in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, which I freely admit is what got me into the basic idea of a magnetic launcher. Supposedly, the Tibetan plateau is almost as good as the Andes, as are a couple of other really high mountains. In addition to the logistical reasons you gave, mountains tend to add rigid support, the absence of civilian population that would be disturbed by the supersonic takeoffs, and some pretty favorable cooling conditions for the launcher rails (depending on location).

The opposite idea, that of a magnetic launcher on the moon that sends lunar hydroponics, solid materials (mined metals, certain rocks, etc.), and other non-living objects back down the well in sealed canisters that are cheaply manufactured using rock, bands of ferrous material, and sealants. They're splashed down in the ocean, recovered, and cracked to harvest their paylods.

This raises issues of lunar ecology and the strip-mining of the moon, but I don't think we're going to be taking anything that actively supports life, unlike the equal practice down here on earth.

P.S. - Then again, the scramjet's minimum operational speed would increase on its trip to space, as the air would become thinner, requiring higher compression ratios for scramjet ignition.

So throw them harder. :D
 
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