Native Apple vs Bootcamp

[BenXiaoHai]

Hey guys! First post here! I'm eagerly waiting for my mbp i5 to arrive and just have a quick question about games on the mac.

Suppose for a game like Modern Warfare which is available on mac native, would it run better on mac or would it be better if it was installed on windows via bootcamp?

 

[Hellhammer]

All "Mac" games are ported from Windows version so they'll run better under Windows. Steam for Mac will change the game though as games will be natively for OS X

 

[JackAxe]

Bootcamp is faster. Windows handles 3D noticeably faster than OS X, weather it's games or 3D production.

Make sure to buy a good mouse -- SO NOT APPLE'S ABOMINATIONS!

 

[Hackint0sh]

All "Mac" games are ported from Windows version so they'll run better under Windows. Steam for Mac will change the game though as games will be natively for OS X

I don't know if World of Warcraft is a true "port", but I get much better performance running Wow in OSX than I do in Windows. I think it depends on the game really.

 

[Hellhammer]

I don't know if World of Warcraft is a true "port", but I get much better performance running Wow in OSX than I do in Windows. I think it depends on the game really.

Not sure is WoW ported or not Usually people says that WoW runs a lot better under Windows... Could be due drivers of course, what Mac do ya have?

 

[BenXiaoHai]

Cool, thanks for the replies! Steam seems like a good app for games, but it just bugs me if I have to launch steam every time i want to play a game downloaded from steam.

That being said, using Modern Warfare 2 again: if it was launched by mac steam, how would the three "versions" (windows, mac, mac steam) fare compared to each other?

 

[Hellhammer]

That being said, using Modern Warfare 2 again: if it was launched by mac steam, how would the three "versions" (windows, mac, mac steam) fare compared to each other?

Windows = Meant for Windows, runs fine on BootCamp

Mac = Ported Windows version, runs okay but Windows version in BootCamp is better

Mac Steam = Natively for Mac, about the same performance as in BootCamp

It's unsure will the Mac version (if there is going to be one) be ported or native but it's not made by Valve so wouldn't be surprised if it was ported

 

[JackAxe]

I don't know if World of Warcraft is a true "port", but I get much better performance running Wow in OSX than I do in Windows. I think it depends on the game really.

Maybe it's just the goodness of being in OS X that makes it seem as if it's performing better.

This guy gets 20 fps under OS X and 31 fps under Windows 7;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nu3rjVKTU4

 

[0098386]

Cool, thanks for the replies! Steam seems like a good app for games, but it just bugs me if I have to launch steam every time i want to play a game downloaded from steam.

Ideally you're supposed to keep Steam running at all times (only takes up 30mb ram (actually quite surprised by that!)) because it handles updates, events, invitations, notifies of sales and new releases. It's all customisable to not do that though.

 

[doh123]

you guys are using terminology incorrectly.

While ported CAN mean non native.. using something like Cider or Wine... it does not mean only that. There are many completely native ports made of games. Some are made really crappy and run horrid, some are made really well and run great.

 

[txa1265]

you guys are using terminology incorrectly.

While ported CAN mean non native.. using something like Cider or Wine... it does not mean only that. There are many completely native ports made of games. Some are made really crappy and run horrid, some are made really well and run great.

You are absolutely correct ... but I think that the assumption is that anything that is ported is having the code translated from the original target to a new target, and typically that involves compromises in order to mitigate the cost of a massive rewrite, and/or use of added middle-ware.

Seldom - and not just with the Mac - is a port superior to the original. In some cases it is - the original Mass Effect comes to mind, but that is as much post-release optimization as anything else ...

 

[Huntn]

Cool, thanks for the replies! Steam seems like a good app for games, but it just bugs me if I have to launch steam every time i want to play a game downloaded from steam.

Not as bad as booting into Windows. BTW, I'm not a steam fan. I mostly use it for older games I can't easily get to run on Vista or for Half Life.

Mac Steam = Natively for Mac, about the same performance as in BootCamp

Is that a certainty?

 

[lannister80]

Is that a certainty?

No. I've read that the main engine Valve games use (Source) has been re-written (not just a crappy port) for the Mac. That means all Source-based games (Left 4 Dead 1/2, Portal, Half-Life 1/2, etc) should be "Mac native" and play very well.

Other Steam games (non "Source"-based) may still be a wrapper around a Windows exe, meaning all those Windows system calls need to be translated into OS X calls (or maybe DirectX to OpenGL translation?), which makes the game run slower.

Steam is just the delivery method. I would expect there to be a mix of "native" and wrapped games to be available.

I think I got all that right.

 

[Hellhammer]

No. I've read that the main engine Valve games use (Source) has been re-written (not just a crappy port) for the Mac. That means all Source-based games (Left 4 Dead 1/2, Portal, Half-Life 1/2, etc) should be "Mac native" and play very well.

Other Steam games (non "Source"-based) may still be a wrapper around a Windows exe, meaning all those Windows system calls need to be translated into OS X calls (or maybe DirectX to OpenGL translation?), which makes the game run slower.

Steam is just the delivery method. I would expect there to be a mix of "native" and wrapped games to be available.

I think I got all that right.

Yea, all other than Source games will be ported but all upcoming Valve games will be natively for OS X as far as I know. Still better than nothing, I'm fine with OS X performance as long as I don't have to use Windows

 

[hurrikenux]

This thread seems to be filled with many misconceptions about porting: both emulation and native. Steam for Mac is a program in itself, the Source engine games are being natively ported for Mac. This means it will be using OpenGL for rendering and the only way to determine performance comparison would be to benchmark running one of those games on the same Mac within OSX and then Boot Camp (Windows). Please note that these benchmarks would not take into account any graphics driver improvements or tweaks within either OS. There are already other games that run natively on Mac and Windows that have not and do not require Steam, only games purchased within Steam require it (just like on Windows).

Now, on the other side, emulation is used by some companies (EA) in order to provide Mac and Windows copies of their games on the same CD or separate purchase. In EA's case, Cider is often used to create these Mac ports. Because of the fact that Cider has to translate Direct3d calls into OpenGL calls on the fly, performance is impacted on the Mac side. This is also the case in using a solution such as CrossOver Games. The performance of ported games using emulation will always be a step behind their native ports. Some Windows games see similar issues when they are ported from XBox 360 even though both use DirectX. Graphics issues in GTAIV and control issues in Dead Space are examples of this.

No. I've read that the main engine Valve games use (Source) has been re-written (not just a crappy port) for the Mac. That means all Source-based games (Left 4 Dead 1/2, Portal, Half-Life 1/2, etc) should be "Mac native" and play very well.

Other Steam games (non "Source"-based) may still be a wrapper around a Windows exe, meaning all those Windows system calls need to be translated into OS X calls (or maybe DirectX to OpenGL translation?), which makes the game run slower.

Steam is just the delivery method. I would expect there to be a mix of "native" and wrapped games to be available.

I think I got all that right.

In short, yes you got that all right. Steam will most likely see some games running in emulation being sold on the Mac store. It can be a cheaper way out for companies looking to bring their games to Mac.

 

[Huntn]

No. I've read that the main engine Valve games use (Source) has been re-written (not just a crappy port) for the Mac. That means all Source-based games (Left 4 Dead 1/2, Portal, Half-Life 1/2, etc) should be "Mac native" and play very well.

Other Steam games (non "Source"-based) may still be a wrapper around a Windows exe, meaning all those Windows system calls need to be translated into OS X calls (or maybe DirectX to OpenGL translation?), which makes the game run slower.

Steam is just the delivery method. I would expect there to be a mix of "native" and wrapped games to be available.

I think I got all that right.

My impression is that most PC games use DirectX and some use OpenGL. (What Blizzard uses in WoW). How does Steam get around DX or does it have to?

 

[hurrikenux]

My impression is that most PC games use DirectX and some use OpenGL. (What Blizzard uses in WoW). How does Steam get around DX or does it have to?

Using either one of the methods mentioned in my post (or others'), native port or emulation. Steam does not get around anything, it is simply a game distribution system. It will be the developer's choice on what method they use for their game in order to bring it to the Mac Platform.

 

[Huntn]

Using either one of the methods mentioned in my post (or others'), native port or emulation. Steam does not get around anything, it is simply a game distribution system. It will be the developer's choice on what method they use for their game in order to bring it to the Mac Platform.

I said PC games but I was also thinking of the games that are written in Source that are being rewritten for the Mac- DX, OGL, or something else? And if DX, then they will rely on the same work arounds that Aspyr has used for years to port PC games over to the Mac? In which case I wonder if the performance will be as good as on a PC.

 

[psingh01]

Not sure is WoW ported or not Usually people says that WoW runs a lot better under Windows... Could be due drivers of course, what Mac do ya have?

Blizzard usually does a good Mac version of their games. Other developers hire some third party to do the port.

 

[imassents]

I said PC games but I was also thinking of the games that are written in Source that are being rewritten for the Mac- DX, OGL, or something else? And if DX, then they will rely on the same work arounds that Aspyr has used for years to port PC games over to the Mac? In which case I wonder if the performance will be as good as on a PC.

I guarantee that it will be re-written for OpenGL. There really is little difference between the two performance wise, they will just rewrite the DirectX portions of the code to OpenGL. The rest of the logic will remain the same.

 

[ARF900]

Cool, thanks for the replies! Steam seems like a good app for games, but it just bugs me if I have to launch steam every time i want to play a game downloaded from steam.

That being said, using Modern Warfare 2 again: if it was launched by mac steam, how would the three "versions" (windows, mac, mac steam) fare compared to each other?

There would be no mac steam version, because steam would just supply the port, seeing how MW2 is not a Valve game

 

[Mike777]

Good job Steve hasn't noticed that mac games have an "additional layer" between them and the system or all hell would break loose !

 

[Huntn]

I guarantee that it will be re-written for OpenGL. There really is little difference between the two performance wise, they will just rewrite the DirectX portions of the code to OpenGL. The rest of the logic will remain the same.

Fingers crossed we get good performance out of the deal. Thanks!