iPhone Need PROOF that PDAnet hides tethering from Att? ***We need a Verizon iPhone owner***

[MotleyGrrl]

I'm bothered by the fact that I can't get a tethering plan without losing my unlimited data. I don't really need unlimited because my data usage is very little, but I like having it. I don't see why AT&T can't work something out for us where we can use x amount for tethering. The only time someone like me would use it is when my home internet goes down which is rare. If someone is going to go nuts and tether 24/7, I can see the problem.
At what point does the unlimited usage become stealing anyway? If someone uses 10gbs strictly with their phone vs. someone using 2gbs including some tethering, why is the tethering stealing? Because a different device is using the data we pay for? I guess I can see why AT&T wants to drop unlimited all together.

 

[ap3604]

If it bothers you, go find another thread to comment in!
Why do people feel they need to set everyone straight on the internet!

I wish they would change the name of this website to 'MoralPolice.com' or something creative like that, to allow all the honest and just people to bask in their greatness as the point fingers at the creatons.

You know I thought the thread starter had a real legit question. Then I read all the people complaining about paying for it blah blah blah. Can we just answer the original question?

I agree guys, thanks for understanding I appreciate it

I'm not sure what is the matter with these "moral police" defending companies making billions of dollars per year from a dirt poor college student like myself trying to make ends meet but I figure this is appropriate:

To the moral police: Not everyone works guys, some of us are going through a trade school so intense we can't work at all and live off of student grants of $5,000 per YEAR (think that is fun? its not ) Learn to develop some maturity and quit judging others who are simply trying to survive...

Edit: Also wanted to add that I barely use 1gb per month on my unlimited plan. It's not like I am streaming netflix or downloading torrents. I simply need to be able to log into my schools website sometimes to submit a paper and can't afford on $400/mo total to not fight against getting nickled and dimed.

 

[ZipZap]

I agree guys, thanks for understanding I appreciate it

I'm not sure what is the matter with these "moral police" defending companies making billions of dollars per year from a dirt poor college student like myself trying to make ends meet but I figure this is appropriate:

Image

To the moral police: Not everyone works guys, some of us are going through a trade school so intense we can't work at all and live off of student grants of $5,000 per YEAR (think that is fun? its not ) Learn to develop some maturity and quit judging others who are simply trying to survive...

Edit: Also wanted to add that I barely use 1gb per month on my unlimited plan. It's not like I am streaming netflix or downloading torrents. I simply need to be able to log into my schools website sometimes to submit a paper and can't afford on $400/mo total to not fight against getting nickled and dimed.

So the rules should be different for you cause you dont have much money?

If you dont want to be judged, then dont post your opinions.

If you want to do the right thing, call AT&T, tell them your story and see if they'll work with you on cost.

 

[wpotere]

I agree guys, thanks for understanding I appreciate it

I'm not sure what is the matter with these "moral police" defending companies making billions of dollars per year from a dirt poor college student like myself trying to make ends meet but I figure this is appropriate:

Image

To the moral police: Not everyone works guys, some of us are going through a trade school so intense we can't work at all and live off of student grants of $5,000 per YEAR (think that is fun? its not ) Learn to develop some maturity and quit judging others who are simply trying to survive...

Edit: Also wanted to add that I barely use 1gb per month on my unlimited plan. It's not like I am streaming netflix or downloading torrents. I simply need to be able to log into my schools website sometimes to submit a paper and can't afford on $400/mo total to not fight against getting nickled and dimed.

Cry me a river...

I am a student and I hold a full time job. I pay for the services I use. If you don't like it find a different carrier.

 

[bbplayer5]

People don't have issues with paying for services that are fairly priced. These cell companies are bending the consumer over and charging them WAY too much for way too little. Given that cell phones are literally a necessity, I don't see any issue with sticking it to the man in this case.

 

[wpotere]

People don't have issues with paying for services that are fairly priced. These cell companies are bending the consumer over and charging them WAY too much for way too little. Given that cell phones are literally a necessity, I don't see any issue with sticking it to the man in this case.

Just a question or two. Do you know the cost of actually building a cell tower? How about the cost of the networking equipment and fiber needed to run the backbone?

I'm not saying that they aren't turning a profit, but the technology does cost and you want bleeding edge which is even more. So, until you can post lots of figures showing that they are simply pocketing the money you point about being bent over is a pointless guess.

If you don't like what they offer find a different carrier that meets your needs.

 

[Interstella5555]

I agree guys, thanks for understanding I appreciate it

I'm not sure what is the matter with these "moral police" defending companies making billions of dollars per year from a dirt poor college student like myself trying to make ends meet but I figure this is appropriate:

Image

To the moral police: Not everyone works guys, some of us are going through a trade school so intense we can't work at all and live off of student grants of $5,000 per YEAR (think that is fun? its not ) Learn to develop some maturity and quit judging others who are simply trying to survive...

Edit: Also wanted to add that I barely use 1gb per month on my unlimited plan. It's not like I am streaming netflix or downloading torrents. I simply need to be able to log into my schools website sometimes to submit a paper and can't afford on $400/mo total to not fight against getting nickled and dimed.

You're not stealing bread because you're hungry. you're not stealing books because you can't afford them. Hell, it's not like you're even stealing gas to drive to school. you're arguing about a luxury phone which certainly isn't necessary (convenient, yes) and trying to figure out how to, yes, steal from AT&T. I'd defend you for days if you stole bread from a Giant, and probably wouldn't care if you stole the gas from Exxon to get your education. But pulling the "I'm a poor college student" is a huge load of BS. I work in the non-profit sector and get paid significantly lower than public sector jobs. does that justify me stealing internet and cable TV? No, because those are, again, unnecessary and luxury items. Trying to defend yourself as a moral person by taking on the corporation that's stealing from you only works if you're actually being wronged in some way. guess what? you can go buy a phone for $20 and have less than $50 bill per month. Why don't you do that instead?

 

[andrewlgm]

Add all the you want. You're still trying to invent your own plan that AT&T chooses not to sell. You can justify it all day long, but it's still theft and it's still wrong. It's no different than me walking across the street to the 7-11, buying a candy bar for $1 and slipping two into my pocket because I feel they should be 3-for-$1. AT&T is not choosing to sell you what you want. That doesn't give you the right to take it anyway.

Now if you admit what you're doing is wrong, that's one thing. I just get upset when people steal and try to pin the blame for their crime on the victim. I'd much rather see a post where someone asks how to steal their service than try to justify why they need to resort to stealing. That's just lame.

I see nothing wrong with using the data you pay for in any way you want. If they didn't want to offer unlimited data, then they shouldn't have advertised it. It started with "tethering" being used to take people's service, now it's people who use unlimited data "too much" having their data throttled. I can't believe you people defend a company taking $100 bucks monthly from us iPhone users and still give us a hard time.

 

[Interstella5555]

I see nothing wrong with using the data you pay for in any way you want. If they didn't want to offer unlimited data, then they shouldn't have advertised it. It started with "tethering" being used to take people's service, now it's people who use unlimited data "too much" having their data throttled. I can't believe you people defend a company taking $100 bucks monthly from us iPhone users and still give us a hard time.

This already exists in multiple services. You can't run business servers off of home internet, you definitely get capped/throttled on most national IPs, you can't go to an all you can eat buffet and take some home for lunch the next day. It's more disturbing that so many of you seem to know what the advertisement wording is and yet never seemed to bother to read your contract.

 

[Hackintosh Sr.]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9A5288d Safari/7534.48.3)

I think most people that are upset probably got suckered into the 2gb plan. I have a job and I'm not broke. I would just like to know the answer to the thread starters question without all the whining. Thanks

 

[wpotere]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9A5288d Safari/7534.48.3)

I think most people that are upset probably got suckered into the 2gb plan. I have a job and I'm not broke. I would just like to know the answer to the thread starters question without all the whining. Thanks

Nope, have unlimited. Not whining, just stating facts. You are stealing and you will have no idea how they are detecting people that are using the illegal software. Do, take the risk, and if you are caught be ready to pay for tethering.

 

[Hackintosh Sr.]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9A5288d Safari/7534.48.3)

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9A5288d Safari/7534.48.3)

I think most people that are upset probably got suckered into the 2gb plan. I have a job and I'm not broke. I would just like to know the answer to the thread starters question without all the whining. Thanks

Nope, have unlimited. Not whining, just stating facts. You are stealing and you will have no idea how they are detecting people that are using the illegal software. Do, take the risk, and if you are caught be ready to pay for tethering.

This was the whole point. The question was not "is it wrong for me to tether on unlimited" the question is "can I tether without AT&T finding out" I see there are partial explanations on how we won't know how AT&T detects it BUT that is the point of a forum : to find someone who might know/ maybe a worker that doesn't care to spill beans , or maybe an encryption genius that knows if you encrypt packets there is no way in heck to tell. I came to the forum to find an answer not an answer about morality and how I am stealing.

 

[bmwhd]

Nope, have unlimited. Not whining, just stating facts. You are stealing and you will have no idea how they are detecting people that are using the illegal software. Do, take the risk, and if you are caught be ready to pay for tethering.

I've gleaned a bit from my source on the detection methodology. He backs the 'monitoring usage and looking for patterns' theory. While it's certainly possible for AT&T to be doing deep analysis of the apn traffic, he suspects the logistics of that would be prohibitive. He believes they are simply looking at usage based on certain criteria and sending fishing txts and emails to see who spooks. I tend to agree based on my own very unscientific poll of JB tether users I know which indicates many have yet to hear a peep from AT&T.

As to the moral question - my problem is not that I'm unwilling to pay, it's that neither carrier offers a plan that works for me. I need a 4G total data per month plan that allows that 4G to be used either in the US or internationally with tethering. Right now I have unlimited US and international data and don't dare lose it so I have no tethering option.

 

[Mahdokht]

Hard to get PROOF

It would be fairly hard to get "proof" that PDAnet succeeds in hiding tethering as there are probably many ways that AT&T could detect usage that isn't from the iphone. From what I understand, one of the ways that PDAnet tries to disguise the usage is by using the phone's regular data APN rather than the APN used by the tethering option. From there, it could probably do more crafty things to packets to make them look more like iPhone activity, but it may just become a cat-mouse game similar to jailbreaking.

Right now, I expect that ATT just looks to see if you are using data through the tethering APN and compares that to whether or not your account has the tethering option being paid for. This means that (for now) PDAnet is probably sufficient to hide tethering. I would also expect that eventually, ATT will start examining traffic on the phone APN and looking for things that originate from things other than iPhones (maybe even something as simple as looking at TTL times on packets - Windows uses a specific TTL which would give it away).

As for the other arguments in this thread: I have absolutely no problem with using "tethering" without paying even more money. If I have a capped plan (and even if I didn't, I think the argument still applies), then I am already paying for data and I could just as easily use that data streaming Netflix and YouTube to my phone all day long, posting on forums, listening to Pandora, doing whatever... data is data, there is no difference between those things and passing that data along to my computer or iPad or coffee maker if I so desired. ATT (and the others following their lead) is just trying to double charge people for something they already paid for.

In some ways, I am somewhat surprised by the people in this thread arguing that using a tethering program instead of paying ATT twice for data is stealing (by the customer). Do you also feel the same way about jailbreaking your phone? I paid for my phone and do whatever I want to it. At least Apple just tries to stop me from doing it with updates, they don't try to charge me a second time for the privilege of using my phone.... With charging for "tethering" ATT is in effect arguing that it can dictate what you can use your data for. Would you be defending them as strongly if they just came out and said that you will now have to pay more for the option of sending email, listening to Pandora, going to <insert your favorite website here>?

 

[Almeuit]

In some ways, I am somewhat surprised by the people in this thread arguing that using a tethering program instead of paying ATT twice for data is stealing (by the customer). Do you also feel the same way about jailbreaking your phone? I paid for my phone and do whatever I want to it. At least Apple just tries to stop me from doing it with updates, they don't try to charge me a second time for the privilege of using my phone.... With charging for "tethering" ATT is in effect arguing that it can dictate what you can use your data for. Would you be defending them as strongly if they just came out and said that you will now have to pay more for the option of sending email, listening to Pandora, going to <insert your favorite website here>?

I have unlimited data and do not tether because i have no desire to since all i use is my phone. As for your thing about jail breaking vs att .... i dont even know how you get that. You buy the hardware from apple .. the $600+ phone ... so of COURSE they don't charge you per use and you can do what you want. But you could get this with an iPod touch and basically thats what your iPhone is ... UNTILL you add the wireless CONSISTANT service... this is what you pay for ... and you have to agree to their terms. Its like home internet ... Comcast has a CAP (250GB) per month .... i got business internet. Why? No cap... do i have to pay more ? yep but its in their terms. You have to accept to use it. Same with AT&T... in their contract they always say "UNLIMITED to your PHONE" not ... PC thats tether or iPad. So in all fairness thats the "legal" of it ... you can't compare a consistent SERVICE compared to a product.

Get real in your argument. Thats like saying you buy a car and they keep charging you .. no you paid the full price. Wireless service you can't start your own unless your freaking rich and can get the network up so you have to agree to their terms. Go ask for a credit card why do you with 1% interest because you feel you shouldn't pay them or agree to their terms and lets see what happens

 

[andrewlgm]

In some ways, I am somewhat surprised by the people in this thread arguing that using a tethering program instead of paying ATT twice for data is stealing (by the customer). Do you also feel the same way about jailbreaking your phone? I paid for my phone and do whatever I want to it. At least Apple just tries to stop me from doing it with updates, they don't try to charge me a second time for the privilege of using my phone.... With charging for "tethering" ATT is in effect arguing that it can dictate what you can use your data for. Would you be defending them as strongly if they just came out and said that you will now have to pay more for the option of sending email, listening to Pandora, going to <insert your favorite website here>?

I can't find an explanation why people stand by ATT. Perhaps if iPhone users were pissed enough and didn't take all this b.s. lightly maybe ATT would have to change their game. I jailbreak my iPhones and iPads even though it is against the terms of service from apple. Is it stealing? Is it breaking the law? Give me a break. A lot of people here copy their albums into iTunes, copy DVDs, borrow CDS and make mp3's out of them. Same deal. I really don't know how people stand by a company that is screwing them... might as well bend over.

I've been tethering for a year. I use about 3GB data monthly with iPhone and iPad. Never got a notice. I will keep tethering for as long as I can. The initial ATT contract when I got my iPhone said nothing of tethering. Now it has changed to include their ability to modify my contract if I tether without a plan. But if I do get my contract changed without my express permission, I will terminate my contract with ATT and switch to T-mobile, Verizon or sprint. Not to mention Metro PCS which is offering unlimited plans for $50 monthly with support for the CDMA verizon iPhone and tethering. They all work pretty well in NYC. I understand a lot of people are not willing to give their iPhones up. But I won't think twice.

 

[tctony]

Everyone needs to step off their tethering high horse.

It's the same old argument, but if I'm paying for unlimited data, I'm going to use it however I want.

If I was paying for unlimited water would I only be able to drink it? Or could I take a bath with it too?

 

[TC25]

Everyone needs to step off their tethering high horse.

It's the same old argument, but if I'm paying for unlimited data, I'm going to use it however I want.

If I was paying for unlimited water would I only be able to drink it? Or could I take a bath with it too?

Wow, after 42 posts, it's settled. Thanks!

 

[Mahdokht]

I have unlimited data and do not tether because i have no desire to since all i use is my phone.

How is this in any way pertinent to any of the conversations going on? I drive an Orange car.

As for your thing about jail breaking vs att .... i dont even know how you get that. You buy the hardware from apple .. the $600+ phone ... so of COURSE they don't charge you per use and you can do what you want. But you could get this with an iPod touch and basically thats what your iPhone is ...

I don't think you understand the argument, so maybe I'll add a point of clarification: It can be argued that's Apple's EULA disallows Jailbreaking (this is a different argument for a different time). IF Apple were to introduce a new "jailbreak option" for the iphone where for the one-time nominal fee of $400, they would sell you jailbroken phone (or jailbreak it for you) and change your EULA to specifically allow this and, upon discovering that you had a jailbroken iPhone, Apple would send you a bill for $400 because you have the jailbreak option, would you be as supportive? If so, then great, at least you are consistent.

UNTILL you add the wireless CONSISTANT service... this is what you pay for ... and you have to agree to their terms...

You are correct in that I pay for the service and I also pay for, say, 4GB of data to my phone. The data definitely goes to and from my phone as this is the nature of how the network works, so no problem there. What my phone does with it from there is none of their business. It could transform and send that data to my eyes and ears in a form they can understand or it could transform that data into something my computer understands.

Ultimately, ATT and other carriers will probably run into a problem where they will find that this particular term of their service agreements is also unenforceable as the cat-mouse game of hiding data usage could culminate in a tethering app that uses some form of fully encrypted proxy connection where the traffic could not be fully analyzed without the carrier breaking the law. Heck, for all I know, they might also already think this and may not take "tethering" detection that far -- just milk it for all the double revenue they can get right now from unsophisticated users.

Get real in your argument. Thats like saying you buy a car and they keep charging you .. no you paid the full price. Wireless service you can't start your own unless your freaking rich and can get the network up so you have to agree to their terms. Go ask for a credit card why do you with 1% interest because you feel you shouldn't pay them or agree to their terms and lets see what happens

Not to belabor the point, but using you analogy's framework, it is more like this: It is like saying that I bought a car, but have since modified it to do something that the seller also offers (for a small fee, of course). They find out I've done this, so they decide to charge me that fee as well because when they sold me the car, they also said I could not add a vegetable juicer to it (or whatever).

I do have to agree to their terms, and they are fully within their rights to terminate our relationship if they so desire. I also have no problem with violating their terms which I view as unenforceable (not to mention reprehensible) just the same as if one of their terms was that I could not think about purple elephants. If they do somehow determine that I was thinking about purple elephants, that is the risk I run.

I also look forward to having this conversation with them at some point:

Me: What is this charge on my bill for tethering service?
ATT: Oh, we added that because you are using tethering.
Me: Oh, well then, please cancel my tethering service.
ATT: OK. Hmmm, it says here you have cancelled the tethering service 10 times before this.
Me: That's right. Please do not allow my phone to tether in the future.
ATT: Mmmm... The only way we could do that is if we no longer offered you service.
Me: Are you saying you would like to end our contract? OK, lets do that then.
ATT: But the contract....
Me: You can send your contract early termination fee to me at this address...
ATT: We... That's not how that works.... Let me transfer you to my supervisor....

_____________________

Just so that there is something on topic in this post as well: I do have some anecdotal evidence that ATT doesn't currently detect PDAnet hidden tethering as I have been using it for a couple months now at ~100-150MB a day or so and haven't heard a word from them.

 

[n8236]

I tether on a weekly basis (once a week) and prior to running PDANET with the "hide usage" option, I've received two SMSs + a letter for illegally tethering.

Since using the level 1 "hide usage" option, I have not heard back from A&T nor seen a price hike on my bill.

Whether the "hide usage" option worked or AT&T simply wanted to just warn ppl, is unknown. But either way, I don't care

 

[Almeuit]

Ah oh well. See i wasn't arguing if its "right" for them to do it. Just the fact that you tried to make it sound like they can't. Your right you definitely can and if you violate your contract and decide to cancel well all power to you. You simply wont find unlimited anywhere but sprint now a days anyway so /shrug. All i wanted to do was get you to admit they can and thats basically all i was pointing out. Because buying a car and adding a juicer isnt a good example ... because you dont sign a terms of agreement to drive the care like you do for a CONSISTENT cell company.

lolzerskates

 

[Mahdokht]

I'm not sure why you bothered saying anything at all then... I definitely never said ATT (or anyone else for that matter) can't put any crazy thing they can think of in terms of use, just that I have no compunctions about ignoring it.

I'm also not sure where "unlimited" entered into this discussion as I was specifically careful to use capped data examples. The "moral" arguments about whether or not ATT should charge people a second time for data on a capped plan are much clearer. Bringing "unlimited" into the conversation definitely muddies the water.

There might be a better way to get my point across though (Keeping in mind that I am only referring to capped data plans):

Say ATT came out tomorrow and said that all users of capped data plans could no longer watch Netflix unless they paid an additional Netflix fee - regardless of whether or not their data usage was under the cap. Would they be completely within their rights to do so? Sure. Would I feel even the slightest bit wrong for using an app that still let me watch Netflix and avoided their fee? No way.

It is just pure greed/dishonesty/legal theivery on ATT's part to claim that somehow 2GB of "magical" tethering data somehow costs them more than 2GB of Netflix streaming.

 

[The Highlander]

It is just pure greed/dishonesty/legal theivery on ATT's part to claim that somehow 2GB of "magical" tethering data somehow costs them more than 2GB of Netflix streaming.

That is JUST the whole point of this argument altogether. Add to that, that there are NO other options out there because we have a duopoly, specially if the ATT-T-mo merger comes true.

Monopolies are illegal because these sorts of things tend to happen, yet companies look for ways to circumvent the laws and find holes. How is this any different with what we are doing?

We are not stealing/taking away from ATT.

Same thing comes here:

I jailbroke my phone... I installed safari download manager.

I downloaded a 300mb file to my iphone... then plugged in my iphone and transferred the file to my PC.

How is that different, data or anyhow from: I downloaded directly to my PC through the phone. That convenience is not being provided by their service, rather by my phone and the phone I chose. There are phones that cannot tether even if you pay the "service" for it.

People complain of double taxation yet defend ATT for double charging.

True it's their network, it's the service they provide and you agree/accept to it. Otherwise you don't get the service.

This is a double edged knife.

Morally Grey?

How is this at all different from "acquiring a sat tv signal and decoding it and NOT paying for it through the "owner or producer"? The signal was already there and I just took it and decode it. It is LEGAL. At least ATT is getting a monthly fee from me.

 

[mrmister]

People defend AT&T here because of a couple of reasons, but the common denominator is douchiness.

People really like to shout "ILLEGAL!" and "STEALING!" and "DMCA!" and "EULA!" in forum threads. I often wonder if they have a misplaced unconscious belief that it's in their best interest to be loyal to corporations, as they'll be treated better.

I wish people who come to forums like IPHONE HACKS (!) would understand that we're here to discuss how things work from a technical standpoint, and try to avoid turning into douchy lawyeresque loudmouths.

 

[wpotere]

People defend AT&T here because of a couple of reasons, but the common denominator is douchiness.

People really like to shout "ILLEGAL!" and "STEALING!" and "DMCA!" and "EULA!" in forum threads. I often wonder if they have a misplaced unconscious belief that it's in their best interest to be loyal to corporations, as they'll be treated better.

I wish people who come to forums like IPHONE HACKS (!) would understand that we're here to discuss how things work from a technical standpoint, and try to avoid turning into douchy lawyeresque loudmouths.

How is it not? You violate your contract with them and when they try to defend themselves you continue to try and find a way to back door the company. You do realize that the cost of them trying to prevent this gets passed back to the customer at some point right? So the reason we are "douches" as you so well put it, is because in the long run you will cost me money!

Grow up and pay for what you use. If you don't like the agreement then move to a different service.