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MP 7,1 Need some advice and help with buying new Mac Pro.

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frankiee

macrumors regular
Original poster
May 31, 2008
198
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Hi Guys,

Finally, after seven years on a hackintosh workstation I am about to return to the "real Mac Pro". Am really excited, but it also hurts a bit because of the huge price increase and also because of actually getting slightly outdated hardware. Still I feel this is the best Apple can offer me, as both Mac Mini and iMac (Pro) are out of question for me. And yes, this machine is total overkill, since I am "only" doing software development and some graphic design, with the occasional trip to After Effects (but doing video stuff is more of a side job). However, I use VMs extensively, so enough cores and especially enough RAM are still important. Other than that, this machine will also double as my gaming machine, using bootcamp. At least I see no need to buy an extra PC just for that ... but thats of course not the main purpose of this machine, think I will spend about 95% of my time in macOS, not windows.

That being said, I configured the following @ the Apple Store:
  • 16 Cores
  • 32GB RAM
  • 1x WX5700X
  • 1TB SSD, maybe 2 (depends, see questions below)
This will be augmented with the following upgrades and accesoires: (EDIT: Updated List)
Now, on for my questions:
  • If I get this right, the 32GB stock config are always 4x8GB sticks, correct? So the plan would be to leave that in the machine, and add another 8x8GB of 3rd party memory, so I also get all channels and can also use the stock RAM. Will this work, and what RAM brand / type would be recommended to go well with the already installed one?
  • Are there any differences with the stock SSD config, lets say 1TB vs 2TB? Are there for example two blades used with the higher configurations, and are they even RAIDed then, giving a (potential) performance advantage?
  • So the thing is that I am not sure where to install windows, on the internal drive or on an external one? As I understand I have to loosen T2 security by allowing booting from an external drive - are there more downsides or things I have to consider when installing on external? Would actually prefer to have the OSes on separate drives if possible.
  • Also not sure if I should do RAID on my data drive, that would be RAID0 for more performance. Any experiences with that, what solution does work well, any more things to consider? In addition a RAID on the windows drive would also be nice, but far from mandatory.
  • Is it still possible to simply move my whole home folder to another drive with those newer T2 macs?
  • last but not least not sure what NVME adapter to get. On thing that is sure however, is that I absolutely want to avoid having additional noise from some annoying whirry little fan, so a fanless solution is preferred, even at the expense of some performance. I am looking at this one: https://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/SSDACL4M201T/. Is it any good, or are there better options?
  • And, if use such adapter, is it possible to set it up like using 2 blades as RAID0, and another one as a single drive?
So yeah, any help would be greatly appreciated! TIA!
 
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There are better people to answer for RAID 0 experience, but I'll add quickly...

I have basically the same setup as you're consider, except 2 TB SSD. Generally, the large the size SSD, the faster, due to the way they work. but probably not a much different from 1 to 2 as from the base 256 GB to 1 TB, since you also go from one to two cards.

Yes, on the RAM. Recognize, though, that the real world speed improvement with same-size and populating optimal configurations won't be as much as the benchmarks indicate, since they are designed to negate processor caching. Not saying it isn't worth trying to be optimal, just that if it proves awkward don't being unduly concerned with the perfect RAM configuration.
 
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So if I order the internal SSD with 1TB+, I get two blades? Does anyone know how they are configured, i.e. set to RAID0, or is it just the two blades combined to a single volume?

About RAM, yes I am aware that real world performance would not be that different, and I also _might_ get away with just 64GB (thats what I have installed in my hackintosh right now). On the other hand, I also would not mind to have some extra space, I would not need to sell the RAM that comes with my machine and I also get all slots filled, thus maximising channels. And as this is not _the_ deciding cost factor, I think this would be a good solution for me.

Anyone else can help me with my NVME setup? Think this is the thing that is most uncertain for me right now.

So should I:
  1. Install both macOS and windows on the SAME internal SSD, i.e. the one thats built in by Apple? Advantage: no need to loosen T2 security. Disadvantage: more costly, needs partitioning (= more complex setup) and also I would prefer both OSes on separate drives anyways
  2. OR, use the internal SSD only for macOS, and install windows on a separate NMVE drive. Advantages / Disatvantages are just reversed here. And, did I miss anything important that might be another factor when installing windows on a separate drive? I remember the Bootcamp Assistant only supporting the start volume, but it was looong ago I looked at this the last time
Of course if I choose Option 2, I also have to make sure that I can - preferably - use three blades on a single (fanless) NVME adapter, one for windows, and the other two with RAID0 for my home folder + data. Not sure if this works OK, and what software is recommended (SoftRaid?)

Any further help greatly appreciated!
 
frankiee said:
So if I order the internal SSD with 1TB+, I get two blades? Does anyone know how they are configured, i.e. set to RAID0, or is it just the two blades combined to a single volume?
Click to expand...

The T2 drive in a Mac system is only ONE drive. The fact that Apple separates the one SSD into 2-3 separate components ( in the iMac Pro and Mac Pro) doesn't change the fact that it is just one drive. There is only one SSD controller ( inside the T2) and the "blades" are just 'dumb' circuit boards to hold the NAND chips on. Yes the T2 spreads the read/write load out over multiple NANDs chips in parallel, but so does every other performance SSD out there. If your write speed is in the same ballpark as the read speeds from your SSD then it is already doing parallel read/writes.

The NAND only blades allow the SSD to be repaired at an Apple approve shop if one (or more ) of the NAND chips fail without having to toss the whole logic board. That is largely what the 'blades' are there for. If either one of them fails then the drive is dead until get a repair. [ also allow folks with a 'shred disks after retirement' to just nuke the blades without having to destroy whole motherboards. ] The other reason why is that Apple can get to higher SSD capacity using more NAND chips ( 8 versus 4 ) without going to very expensive one. So getting to the 4TB range.
(the lowest capacities are slower but the largest one aren't necessarily faster than stuff in the middle-high range. )




As for RAID 0 for primary data drives. If not having a bandwidth issue now than the NVMe Add-in cards probably won't have a bandwidth issue in the future. If it is merely for capacity ( two !TB SSD cheaper than 2TB or two 2TB cheaper than 4TB ) .
 
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OK, thanks for the info about the apple SSD drives, I think I get it. In essence, no perf advantage with bigger drives, right? So yeah, I just might get away with one TB for my system drive.

As for RAIDing my data drive, yes I also saw that two drives are about as expensive as a single one with double the capacity, so I thought: why not getting an extra ounce of performance by doing RAID0? I mean I could get away with just a single drive, but why not? The main question is if there are some roadblocks to consider that would - maybe? - make the single drive solution more worthwhile. I never have done a RAID setup before, so consider me a rookie in this regard.

Also keep in mind that this "data drive" also should hold my complete home folder(s), I hope this can be moved as easily with Catalina as with former macOS Versions, where this process just takes some seconds (using the advanced options in the user system pref)
 
So the thing is that I am not sure where to install windows, on the internal drive or on an external one? As I understand I have to loosen T2 security by allowing booting from an external drive - are there more downsides or things I have to consider when installing on external? Would actually prefer to have the OSes on separate drives if possible.
Click to expand...
Installing Bootcamp on an external can be very tedious. You can do it if you purchase Winclone. Otherwise another workaround exists where you use VMWare and WinToUsb to get it on an external but I don't think Windows will update with this method.
last but not least not sure what NVME adapter to get. On thing that is sure however, is that I absolutely want to avoid having additional noise from some annoying whirry little fan, so a fanless solution is preferred, even at the expense of some performance. I am looking at this one: https://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/SSDACL4M201T/. Is it any good, or are there better options?
Click to expand...


How about this option? Sonnet just released a fanless. https://www.sonnetstore.com/collect...ducts/products/sonnet-m2-4x4-pcie-card-silent
[automerge]1590519659[/automerge]
 
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orytek said:
Installing Bootcamp on an external can be very tedious. You can do it if you purchase Winclone. Otherwise another workaround exists where you use VMWare and WinToUsb to get it on an external but I don't think Windows will update with this method.
Click to expand...

Dang, so it is the same problem as back then. Hmm, thats clearly a disadvantage, but I need to further investigate this.

So, as I get this right, it sill _can_ be done, right? I think I have already a Winclone License anyways. So, you install on the start drive, clone the windows partition to the external (i.e. separate NVME drive) and then reformat / reinstall the start volume again? Well, that would be indeed quite tedious ... but only to be done one time, right?

orytek said:
How about this option? Sonnet just released a fanless. https://www.sonnetstore.com/collect...ducts/products/sonnet-m2-4x4-pcie-card-silent
Click to expand...

Thanks for pointing to this! So, which one do you think has better quality? I heard the Sonnet ones seem to be quite good, whereas I haven't heard much from the Accelsior.
 
Dang, so it is the same problem as back then. Hmm, thats clearly a disadvantage, but I need to further investigate this.

So, as I get this right, it sill _can_ be done, right? I think I have already a Winclone License anyways. So, you install on the start drive, clone the windows partition to the external (i.e. separate NVME drive) and then reformat / reinstall the start volume again? Well, that would be indeed quite tedious ... but only to be done one time, right?
Click to expand...

That sounds correct. There is also directions I believe on the Winclone site.

Thanks for pointing to this! So, which one do you think has better quality? I heard the Sonnet ones seem to be quite good, whereas I haven't heard much from the Accelsior.
Click to expand...

I don't know about quality difference but the Accelsior is only x8 where the Sonnet is x16 which would be faster.
 
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So I would shoot for the Sonnet, but there seems only be the little problem that this card is not widely available (yet?), I did not find a single source (based on Sonnets reseller list) where I can buy this in germany.

So I am looking for plan B, and that would be to use a simpler adapter, and do without any RAID. So I have this one ony my list, wich should be good according to the big NVME thread: https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B0742LW4WB/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A3JWKAKR8XB7XF&psc=1

I would get two of those, one with a 1TB 970 Evo plus (for windows), and another one with a 2TB version (for my data drive). What would you think - this should work fine, and also give me full NVME speed, right?

Also I have found this RAM that seems to be good: https://www.mac-speicher-shop.de/Produkt/2x-8GB-16GB-KIT-DDR4-RAM-2933-Mhz-PC4-23400-DIMM-ECC-REG

And as for the additional Spinner, I think this one should be good: https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B07XGDNZXT/ref=ox_sc_act_title_5?smid=A3JWKAKR8XB7XF&psc=1
 
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