Need some help getting some documentation...asking for help

Discussion in 'Community Discussion' started by The.316, Feb 4, 2011.

  1. The.316 macrumors 65816

    The.316

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    25100 GR
    #1
    So here is the situation...I am an American citizen living in Greece at the moment, I became a Greek citizen last year, so I now have dual citizenship. The Greek government now wants me to join the army, which is mandatory for all males here, and in order to get out of it, I need to get some documentation. I need prior tax paperwork I did, and any information I can get from my old job. I can get the paperwork from Verizon Wireless, which was my employer for the past eight years before I left for Greece, but Im a bit stumped on the tax paperwork. Anyone have any suggestions?

    I find it ridiculous that the Greek embassy in Tampa, FL wants information showing that I lived in the US for my whole life, up until 2008, but they wont accept a US passport that shows all the times I have traveled to and from the US the past decade. Im 33 years old, and while I understand that the army is mandatory, I am a US citizen first, and was born in the US, and dont want to comply to this, so I have to figure out how to get around this. If anyone has any other useful info, please let me know.
     
  2. MacDawg macrumors P6

    MacDawg

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    #2
    Just wanting to clarify here... you want the benefits of Greek citizenship without the responsibilities?
    Does that about sum it up?

    As far as tax paperwork is concerned... check with the IRS
     
  3. ender land macrumors 6502a

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    #3
    Uh, did you even bother researching what becoming a dual citizen would entail before going through the process?

    After about two seconds searching I found the following - http://livingingreece.gr/2007/06/03/dual-citizenship-american-and-greek/ . Read down a bit on the left for "Greek Military Obligations."

    (found searching "become dual citizen greece" in Google)

    You can't just "get around" something because you do not want to do it. You get around it by not becoming a Greek citizen when you are an American.
     
  4. Tomorrow macrumors 604

    Tomorrow

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    #4
    I don't think "dual citizenship" means "citizenship here first, and citizenship there when it's convenient."
     
  5. ucfgrad93 macrumors P6

    ucfgrad93

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    #5
    Apparently, you don't understand it. Sounds to me like you should have done more research before picking up that Greek citizenship. Enjoy army life.:D
     
  6. stonyc macrumors 65816

    stonyc

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    #6
    Edited out some other criteria, but it seems like they are asking for your tax paperwork to establish that you have been living abroad (ie. the US) since your 11th birthday. They are not asking you for your tax paperwork so that you can get out of military service completely... rather it is to establish that you can qualify for the reduced military service requirement or the reduced buyout payment of 6 x 293.46 euros. You are not getting out of the military service requirement completely without some cost to you (either monetary or your time).

    You should have probably researched this better... I found that following the military service information link in less than 5 minutes. Sorry.
     
  7. snberk103 macrumors 603

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    An Island in the Salish Sea
    #7
    Think of it as an immersive "Get Fit" spa camp. Semi-Private accommodations (you and 145 of you best buds). Good Greek food (if you like the Greek equivalent of Beans On Toast.) Morning strolls (if you like carrying 45kg backpacks). A chance to see the country-side (if they use the recruits to fight their summer forest fires).

    And of course, the fitness regime. How do you say "drop and give me 20" in Greek? And there's another benefit.... language training. Think of all the new words you will learn. Latrine. K-P. Spit-'n-polish. Worms. Homesick.

    Sounds ideal, eh?

    If you were 18, OK - your frontal lobes are fully developed. But 33? Ooops.

    Seriously. The best way to get out of this is to leave the country.
     
  8. Mousse macrumors 68000

    Mousse

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    #8
    Look on the bright side, he'll get to meet the Greek equivalent of R. Lee Ermey. The man is entertaining to watch, so long as he's not yelling at ME. ;)

    As for the tax documents, you can go the local office of the IRS and ask for you income tax transcript. You'll have to pick it up in person. It shows the tax payment (tax evasion;)) history.
     
  9. Ttownbeast macrumors 65816

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    May 10, 2009
    #9
    Have you denounced your US citizenship? Because legally you cannot hold dual citizenship if you are a US citizen no matter what the other country says is legal. Dual citizenship is not recognized in the United States as a valid citizenship status under federal law, so unless you have walked into a US embassy and made the declaration stating denouncement of your citizenship no matter what Greece says you are still strictly a citizen of the United States on paper.

    The reasons why may include issues of national loyalties, and avoiding unwanted foreign influences in domestic politics. Does dual citizenship mean you can vote for the presidents of both nations and be subject to both governments rules even when they may conflict? If yes then this is an issue and a huge reason why dual citizenship is looked upon so negatively here.

    This should be in PRSI
     
  10. snberk103 macrumors 603

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    #10
    The issue is not whether the US recognizes his Greek citizenship, it's whether Greece recognizes it. As long as Greece believes the citizenship is valid, he's in a pickle. And he can protest all he wants that he's still a US citizen... but until Greece rescinds the Greek citizenship, Greek laws apply. At least in Greece.
     
  11. dejo Moderator

    dejo

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    #11
    You sure about that?

    US State Department Services Dual Nationality
     
  12. balamw Moderator

    balamw

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    #12
    Says who? http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html

    It is only if you seek or apply for other citizenship that you may lose your US citizenship.

    EDIT: dejo beat me to it.

    B
     
  13. Ttownbeast, Feb 4, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2011

    Ttownbeast macrumors 65816

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    #13
    inteesting reads but......

    quote from: http://www.richw.org/dualcit/law.html#INA
    and of course my point was concerning dual "citizenship" not dual "nationality".

    Now to quote something else from your same source travel.state.gov:

    So looking a bit closer at things, our OP says:
    which by our laws no longer makes him a citizen of the US even if he still is a US national so his citizenship with the US is now invalid, there is no dual citizenship he is no longer a citizen of the US but a citizen of Greece because such a status is not recognized under American law--he can be a "dual national" all he likes but he cannot hold dual citizenship.

    To the OP: Good luck in the Greek army--ever wonder why you aren't getting all the necessary paperwork?
     
  14. balamw Moderator

    balamw

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    #14
    If he obtained his Greek status through marriage or something like that the bit you cited does not apply. As I said in my post, he may (or not) have lost his US citizenship depending on how he became Greek, but there is no US law preventing someone who is a citizen or national of another country (by birth, marriage, etc... ) from keeping their other status as well as remaining a full American citizen.

    B
     
  15. Ttownbeast macrumors 65816

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    #15
    They cannot here's a summary of the oath to become a naturalized citizen:

    Oath of Allegiance
    To become a citizen, one must take the oath of allegiance. By doing so, an applicant swears to:
    • support the Constitution and obey the laws of the United States;
    • renounce any foreign allegiance and/or foreign title;
    • bear arms for the Armed Forces of the United States or perform services for the government of the United States when required.

    The full reading:
    This is an official statement there is of course wiggle room (alternate affirmation wordings and so forth for religious purposes), but beyond that it is still an official binding contract. You don't come here to become a citizen expecting to retain that citizenship in your old country--you cannot come from a monarchy and expect the US to recognize the king or queens authority over a US citizen, nor is it recognized officially by the US if you leave here and take up citizenship in another nation and retain your US citizenship. In fact if you take up foreign citizenship the base assumption is that you no longer wish to be a US citizen and the response by the US will be to send a form to file asking if you would like to denounce US citizenship by default born here or not--give no response and they will revoke citizenship.

    Carrying that supposed dual citizenship voids the protections for American nationals abroad who do it too, because it puts their legal status as a citizen under major scrutiny when it is found out that they have full legal residence in another country. It is not so much an active full on illegalization of the practice of dual citizenship through extreme punitive measures but the laws in place discourage the recognition of it thoroughly enough that it can be lost very easily and harder to regain. Our OP here may have dug himself a very deep hole and may not get the help of any government agencies unless he denounces the Greek citizenship before he digs himself a deeper one.
     
  16. ender land macrumors 6502a

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    #16
    Ttownbeast , I will trust the American Department of State resources over some random guys website and your personal interpretations.

    On dual nationality:
    http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_778.html

    Also, regarding dual nationality and dual citizenship

    from http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html

    This is from the Department of State website as well.

    Also in that same page
    From what you quoted too -

    The OP presumably has not become a citizen of Greece with the intent to relinquish his US citizenship. So what you are saying does not apply (unless of course he did this).


    The problem of course with holding dual citizenship means that you are obligated to follow laws from both countries. This might get really complicated in cases like this. Unfortunately, you are living in Greece too, which means they likely have a stronger "claim" to you than the USA does.

    You can actually request tax information from the IRS I think if you no longer have access to your last few tax returns.
     
  17. balamw Moderator

    balamw

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    #17
    You're mixing and matching things at random. The oath of allegiance is for non-US citizens becoming naturalized. Children born in the USA or born outside the USA of US citizens do not have to take the oath of allegiance to claim citizenship.

    You can't choose to become American and keep your previous citizenship, but if you are or become automatically both American and something else you stay both.

    B
     
  18. Ttownbeast, Feb 5, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2011

    Ttownbeast macrumors 65816

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    #18
    That random guy as you put it references these same Department of State sources.

    And naturalization as a Greek citizen puts the OPs status as an American citizen in question

    This quote I posted earlier was from the Department of State website and not from "random guy" I have bolded the important points for emphasis from the DOS:

    and it is the OP's responsibility to set the matter straight otherwise he is no longer a US citizen, and if the OP does wish to retain US citizenship his status as a Greek citizen is not formally recognized in the US. Intent is what is assumed just by the act of naturalization to another nation, and it is up to the OP to prove otherwise.
     
  19. ender land macrumors 6502a

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    Oct 26, 2010
    #19
    What part of "potentially" and "with the intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship" do you not understand?

    Applying for, and being accepted as, a citizenship outside the United States does not automatically void your US citizenship. Period. For this to happen you MUST indicate intent for it to do so.

    Oh, and in case you still do not believe that, the section on the Department of State's site specifically addresses this (immediately following the paragraph you keep citing incorrectly, emphasis from the site itself):


    Unless the OP has done something to explicitly indicate he wishes his American citizenship to be removed he is most definitely still an American citizen.
     
  20. Ttownbeast, Feb 5, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2011

    Ttownbeast macrumors 65816

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    #20
    Alone, naturalization as a citizen of a foreign country is considered intent all on its own it counts as expatriation there is no "and" concerning that one. Our OP has to address this with an embassy it is not the job of the federal government to establish that he is still a US citizen but the OPs responsibility to state that he would like to retain his citizenship but in doing so at this point his status as a Greek citizen wouldn't be legally recognized here. And since the requirement for Greek citizenship is military service the OP has pretty much screwed himself, because the feds will take the short route and automatically assume: naturalization elsewhere(alone considered an explicit indication it does not need to b a combination of reasons--especially a country where military service is compulsory)=means our OP is no longer wishing to be a citizen here. If the OP ever changes their mind they will likely have to come back under an immigrant status to regain citizenship.
     
  21. ender land macrumors 6502a

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    Oct 26, 2010
    #21
    There is a specific section on the Department of State website indicating what you say to be incorrect using the exact same example you are using.

    The website (again from the United States government) describes in detail what someone has to do to lose their citizenship through this process. According to the OP, he has not done this.

    Seriously, read through this link - http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_778.html - you are blatantly misinforming this person. Unless of course the State Department website is in error.
     

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