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To clarify, this is true for sequential throughputs. It's not as fast as SSD for random access, but it's still faster than a single drive, even if only by a small amount of time (0.x ms for example). The larger the set (members, not capacity), that will improve.
;)

Well, yes and no. Yes, random I/O operations as conducted in benchmark programs are slower. But this is very misleading as this "Random I/O" test behavior has almost no real-world analogue. Mostly the majority or indeed ALL of the files on an HDD are continuous. Most I/O operations are single file reads or writes. When there are multi-file I/Os taking place they're almost always of the same type from the same basic location. There are some exceptions but I would venture to say that for the average SOHO (small office, home office) user between 95% and 99.8% of all I/O operations are more like Sequential I/O and not much like "Random I/O" that benchmark programs perform, at all.

Then also consider that in a 4.5TB to 6TB RAID likely only about 20% to 25% at most will be used and all of that is in a very continuous area of the HDDs. So actually Random I/O like benchmark apps do will never ever happen - ever. It's nice to know how your drives perform under those conditions but it's not related to much if anything in the real-world other than maybe a terribly fragmented HDD that's very near 100% full. If you have that then you deserve to have bad performance anyway! Heh! :p


Here's some data that shows the myth behind this:

Code:
+---------------------+---------------+
| Blocksize           |  Avg Latency  |
+---------------------+---------------+
  4 K        Seq Read     0.019 ms    
          Random Read     0.024 ms     
            Seq Write     0.024 ms    
         Random Write     0.409 ms  
  Create scratch file     0.112 ms     
  8 K        Seq Read     0.025 ms    
          Random Read     0.030 ms    
            Seq Write     0.033 ms    
         Random Write     1.044 ms  
  Create scratch file     0.129 ms     
  16 K       Seq Read     0.040 ms     
          Random Read     0.039 ms     
            Seq Write     1.531 ms    
         Random Write     4.643 ms  
  Create scratch file     0.055 ms  
  32 K       Seq Read     0.067 ms     
          Random Read     0.065 ms    
            Seq Write     2.420 ms    
         Random Write     4.595 ms    
  Create scratch file     0.189 ms    
  64 K       Seq Read     0.127 ms     
          Random Read     0.119 ms   
            Seq Write     1.603 ms    
         Random Write     4.974 ms   
  Create scratch file     0.382 ms     
  128 K      Seq Read     0.251 ms     
          Random Read     0.235 ms     
            Seq Write     2.881 ms   
         Random Write     5.530 ms   
  Create scratch file     0.699 ms   
  256 K      Seq Read     0.519 ms     
          Random Read     0.468 ms     
            Seq Write     6.210 ms     
         Random Write     8.436 ms  
  Create scratch file     1.242 ms   
+-------------------------------------+

Here the latency times include the time it takes to read or write the data chunks or scratch file as well as the seeks so as the data chucks get bigger the latency times increase. This is a RAID0 of probably the slowest seeking drives on the market. Their average manufacturer specified seek time is 16 ms and I don't know of a slower drive. As you can see the overall average is very small and quite similar to SSD times. Unless you're attempting to read or write a few thousand files at once you won't notice any difference and I doubt very seriously you can even measure the difference with a stop-watch.

Here's my 4.5 TB RAID0 after about 5 or 6 months of heavy use and I've never defragged the volume. For files, a different application says that I have 7 fragmented files and all of those are >1GB avi files that were DLed by torrent. :eek:
 

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my experience so far

I just bought a mac pro 8 core 2.26__ 2.64t hd's. 8 gigs ram ati video( 3 hd')s
I plan on running final cut pro 2 and photoshop cs4,as an ex pc user i have vista64 running on the 640 gig hd .(3 weeks old)
Everything is running good,the bluetooth mouse and keyboard was not the right thing to do as on boot up the apple keyboard does not help to select vista ,have to plug in a usb until the selection screen comes up then give the mouse and apple keyboard a shake and it all starts to work.Vista64 does not run any better than in a high quality PC but its a fun thing and its under your finger tips.
Also looking back i wouldn't go to nutty about the hard drives as you can purchase the black western digital for a lot less money and possibly fill the 4 drawers.
I ordered 2 terabytes and then i put in the western digital 640 for vista.
I am amazed at how flexible mac/pc are, more so than pc/linux.Usb sticks work back and forth ,external hd's work (except mac won't write to a pc made fat32 drive.
The mac seems very powerful but does run hot ,in winter that will be ok but summer it heats the are up (might have to vent it off)
My feeling ...stan
 
Well, yes and no. Yes, random I/O operations as conducted in benchmark programs are slower. But this is very misleading as this "Random I/O" test behavior has almost no real-world analogue. Mostly the majority or indeed ALL of the files on an HDD are continuous. Most I/O operations are single file reads or writes. When there are multi-file I/Os taking place they're almost always of the same type from the same basic location. There are some exceptions but I would venture to say that for the average SOHO (small office, home office) user between 95% and 99.8% of all I/O operations are more like Sequential I/O and not much like "Random I/O" that benchmark programs perform, at all.
I understand your point, but keep in mind, I'm used to Windows. If changes are made, the registry gets wonky, and it slows you down. Even if the drive is contiguous. Or at least that's what I've run into on many occasions, and the worst of it was usually caused by a registry cleaning utility. :rolleyes: :p

The other factor, though the files may be contiguous, the file sizes are varied, particularly for OS and applications (mostly small), and have a great affect on the transfer speeds for a given data request. That you can feel, if there's enough of them in the queue.

But we both agree that current benchmarks aren't real world. ;) Unfortunately, it's all we have, and keep hoping for something better. :D

Then also consider that in a 4.5TB to 6TB RAID likely only about 20% to 25% at most will be used and all of that is in a very continuous area of the HDDs. So actually Random I/O like benchmark apps do will never ever happen - ever. It's nice to know how your drives perform under those conditions but it's not related to much if anything in the real-world other than maybe a terribly fragmented HDD that's very near 100% full. If you have that then you deserve to have bad performance anyway! Heh! :p
I dont' assume the data's going to reside on that small of capacity %, unless it's properly planned. So I err on the side that it isn't. You and I know well enough to get more capacity than is actually needed to utilize those outer tracks. Also, OS X and Linux seem to place files better than windows, which will scatter them. :( Take a look at the file distribution of your windows install. ;) On a large array, those on the inner tracks can murder your throughputs at times, and can make you think somethings wrong. :eek: :p

Given your capacity %, it's effectively a short stroke. :D (I like to set those at 10% or smaller if possible).

Here the latency times include the time it takes to read or write the data chunks or scratch file as well as the seeks so as the data chucks get bigger the latency times increase. This is a RAID0 of probably the slowest seeking drives on the market. Their average manufacturer specified seek time is 16 ms and I don't know of a slower drive. As you can see the overall average is very small and quite similar to SSD times. Unless you're attempting to read or write a few thousand files at once you won't notice any difference and I doubt very seriously you can even measure the difference with a stop-watch.
I usually dont' see those latencies with windows, and the RE3's I've got have a latency of 12.7ms (worst test results, not manufacturer data). But as I mentioned, the data's scattered (not entirely contiguous), and some of it is fixed for it's location (back end of the drive = inner most tracks; Eww), and won't be moved by a defrag. :( Hence the affect I mentioned earlier. The OS does make a difference. ;) For data files not belonging to the OS, is another story.
 
scouser75 said:
Thanks Genghis too

I'm getting there with the SSD and Raid0 thing

But re. Ram - Genghis, you say if i can get away with 6 I should. But if not I should "get 3 x 2 sticks to replace the 3 of the 6GB the octo comes with the get 9GB".

3x2 would be 6GB. Or was it a typo and you meant get 3x3gb to get 9gb?

If I did want 6GB instead, I should get 3x2gb sticks, right?

The Octo Mac Pro has 8 RAM slots. 4 for each processor.

In the standard config, 6 of those slots are filled with 1GB RAM modules
(3 per processor).

My advice would be to keep 3 of the 1GB modules, and replace the other 3 with either 2GB modules (giving you a total of 9GB RAM) or to replace all 6 with 2GB modules and sell the original chips on eBay (giving you 12GB RAM)
 
Thanks gugucom for those links. I'm going to conisder my options before diving in for the expesnive yet more faster option.

Genghis, if I were to do as you advise in your first option - keep 3 1GB's and then install 3 2GB Ram would this be the advisable "3's" install?

If all the Ram stuff is sinking in correct, would I be right in saying what is advised is to match the Ram for both processors equally - AND preferably by using only 3 slots for each of the processor's? EG If I wanted 12gb Ram I should install 3x2gb and 3x2gb which equals 12gb :)

Snakes, the reason for me going for the 8 Core is I have a lot of work coming my way and needed to upgrade anyway. So my thinking was might as well go for a good spec which'll be 3/4 year future proof. Also, whilst i had my Power Mac I kind of got lost in just Final Cut Studio and my work and lost track of all the recent technology and stuff:rolleyes: This has given me the opportunity to not only catch up with the technology but also enhance my IT knowledge a little :)

Tesselator and Nanofrog - you guys are on another level :D When I can pluck up the courage I'm going to try and re-re-re-re-re-read your posts and try to understand it all :D
 
Quick question again please:

Western Digital Black Caviar SATA 1TB OR Western Digital Black Scorprio SATA 1TB? OR any better recommendations?
 
I think the Scorpio is a 2.5" laptop drive, isn't it? Go with the Caviar. Don't ask for recommendations, because some will tell you how awesome WD is and how terrible Seagate is, and just as many will tell you how great Seagate is and how terrible WD is. They're both good.
 
LOL :D Thanks Bozz. I pretty much knew that would be the scenario if I asked for recommendations :D

Caviar it is - even though I'm a vegetarian :rolleyes:

I'll get my coat..............................
 
you don't need a guide. just pull out one of the hard drive sleds that reside inside your mac pro, and use the four screws in it to attach the new drive to the sled. then, simply slide it back into the case. pie.
 
scouser75 said:
Genghis, if I were to do as you advise in your first option - keep 3 1GB's and then install 3 2GB Ram would this be the advisable "3's" install?

If all the Ram stuff is sinking in correct, would I be right in saying what is advised is to match the Ram for both processors equally - AND preferably by using only 3 slots for each of the processor's? EG If I wanted 12gb Ram I should install 3x2gb and 3x2gb which equals 12gb

Yep. Pretty much.

I'm more of an expert on the RAM for the '06 and '08 models (as I have one). With those, you wanted to install the RAM in matching pairs (as the old Mac Pro's were dual channel). As the new Mac Pro is triple-channel, you want matching triplets.

So in principle...install in matching triplets wherever possible.
 
I think it is. In almost ALL cases. Here, let's see: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/780688/
Nah. Sample's too small. :eek: :D :p Also, those posting here are more likely to know or find out what they need to IMO, as they're interested and on this forum. As it gets bigger though, I'll give it more consideration. It's still relevant to the questions posted by members. :)

But I've seen many single drive systems over the 50% mark, and it was usually a mess (home users, not those being taken care of by IT/knowledgeable individuals). So anti virus software may have been out of date, just the mention of a defrag = :confused:,... :p

This level of knowledgeable person does exist in the professional world though, and SOHO would be the area I'd think the effects would be noticable, as there's no IT type individual to keep it running smoothly. :( Education "the hard way", when things go wrong. ;)
 
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