New 8-Core MacBook Pro Offers Solid Performance Improvements According to Benchmark

[09872738]

You are so wrong. The decline has been year over year. Why do you think Apple stop reporting how many units were sold?
If you consider that prices increased 30%, and y/y revenue is lower, that means that the actual units sold were actually much less since the price per units are more expensive.

Indeed. They are treating customers pretty hostile. And it starts to show. A lot of people acting like Apple advocates (like myself) in years prior have stoped recommending Apple devices. And for a good reason that is.
Just check out the various threads here at MR. Never in history have there been so many unhappy users about to leave, probably not even in the late 80s.
10 year ago, a switcher was considered a person switching from Windows to the Mac.
Today its vice versa.

I have little doubt that Apple is going to lose market share over almost every product line, in particular the Mac (iPhone as well, albeit probably to a lesser degree).
If Apple discontinued FCXP and released Xcode/iOS SDK for other platforms (Linux!!) there'd be no convincing reason to buy a Mac any more (sadly, given macOS is not bad at all. Mostly)

 

[Baymowe335]

You are so wrong. The decline has been year over year. Why do you think Apple stop reporting how many units were sold?
If you consider that prices increased 30%, and y/y revenue is lower, that means that the actual units sold were actually much less since the price per units are more expensive.

Apple is barely upgrading processors and internals in the entire computer line up, with no major innovation. If that is NOT abandoning what is it? if major upgrade cycles are 4-6 years, means not abandoning, what is it?

We are not talking how big the Mac business compares to others (Services, mobile, etc). We are talking about the poor/lame products Apple is releasing within the computer line up.

Business soo stable that sales are declining Y/Y? Business is NOT solid if it is declining. And the main reason it is declining because many users are not willing to upgrade to the current outdated technology/overprice products Apple is releasing.
Why waste 3k in a disposable Laptop?

Compared to other similar products, the MBP is so behind and so overpriced that I wonder why sales are declining...

But according to you MBP are so on fire they are selling like hotcakes.
https://9to5mac.com/2019/05/30/macbook-pro-catches-fire/



Apple
Yesterday Technology at tomorrow's prices.

iPhone prices didn't increase overall 30%. Last year, ASPs were $765...do you really think ASPs were significantly higher this year? I don't. XS is $999, just like the X, XS Max is $1099, 10% more, and Xr is priced cheaper than last year's iPhone 8 Plus. Plus, the iPhone 8 and iPhone 7 decreased pricing this year. That's why I think revenue declines of 17% are pretty consistent with unit declines of the same. iPhone is a mature market. Apple understood this better than anyone, which is why they started the ultra premium $999 space and the iPhone X was a smash hit.

They are pivoting to a services business that is growing at 20% and a wearables business growing at over 30%. Even iPad is growing again, by 22% in the most recent quarter. Mac is stable as I will describe here.

Mac sales have been pretty consistent over the last 3 years. Source: 10K

2016: $18.5B
2017: $19.2B
2018: $18.2B

So yes, slightly down in 2018, but pretty similar to 2016 and as I said, iPad just put up 22% growth Q/Q so some Mac sales are cannibalized by iPad Pro, like it or not.

So Mac sales aren't really "declining" in any broad sense. They are slightly down y/y, but overall very consistent.

 

[farewelwilliams]

Apple cannot simply put something on hold for 6-7 months when a partner like AMD hits a roadblock...which is what this ended up being.

Apple did with AirPods 2.
Also, Apple has notoriously cancelled contracts from partners that couldn't deliver. So Apple could have definitely cancelled the Vega chips and wait for the next year's model.

Better to ship minus a couple of upper tier GPU options than to release an updated MacBook Pro a month or two after BTS winds down and piss off students and parents who just bought the supposed latest and greatest that was already a year old and updated CPUs existed. The PR hit for that would be horrible, versus the heat Apple took for the Vega release.

This doesn't make sense as new MBP were commonly released in October/November timeframes. Was there ever a PR disaster?

Also, there is zero correlation between Apple "making" us wait 6-7 years for a new Mac Pro and Apple making us wait for a BUILD TO ORDER GPU update for the MacBook Pro.

It shows that Apple wouldn't mind making people wait for a product until they're actually ready to ship.

 

[Zdigital2015]

Apple did with AirPods 2.
Also, Apple has notoriously cancelled contracts from partners that couldn't deliver. So Apple could have definitely cancelled the Vega chips and wait for the next year's model.



This doesn't make sense as new MBP were commonly released in October/November timeframes. Was there ever a PR disaster?



It shows that Apple wouldn't mind making people wait for a product until they're actually ready to ship.

Are you talking about the AirPower wireless charger? I do not remember the AirPods 2 being on hold, unless you think it was because of the lack of AirPower shipping.

There is no next year's model...Navi Mobile is a 2020 product at this point. We are almost half way through the year and the only thing of note announced at Computex 2019 was the Radeon RX5700 GPU, a desktop part.

AMD is a strategic partner and until Apple either makes its own GPUs or cozies up to NVIDIA again (blech), they are a bit at the mercy of AMD's schedule with regard to GPUs. I don't claim to have insider knowledge of what happened there, just common sense and a gut feeling that AMD had Vega 16/20 almost ready to go and couldn't deliver at the last second.

There is no common release date for the MacBook Pro if you look at their history from 2006 to today. The only months where Apple does not introduce new MacBook Pros are August-September (too late for Back To School sales) and November-December (too late for Black Friday and holiday sales).

Intel has been in the habit of launching a new generation of CPUs in the August through October timeframe to get it out the door (typically the 15w TDP U-Series along with a few enthusiast 65-95w TDP S-series desktop SKUs) and then filling the holes in their portfolio through April of the following year. Intel is not releasing at the speed and cadence they used to release and, as a result, Apple has shifted to a once a year release schedule for most of their computers.

Again, Vega 16/20 was always going to be a BTO option, not the default GPU, so releasing the 8th Gen update to the MacBook Pros in May-July before BTS started was a given. Had Apple wanted to make Vega 16/20 the default, then they would have waited. Even now, Vega is still a BTO option six months after release.

Yes, the wait for the Mac Pro is evidence of that, but not in the case of the 2018 MacBook Pro and certainly not in the case of the 2019 MacBook Pro. Bottom line, there won't be any additional GPU updates coming out this year.

 

[Glockworkorange]

wait 3 months to include the new GPU or wait 6 months after releasing the new MacBook to release yet another new MacBook.

The Vega 20 was released in November; that's four months after the device released in July.

The 2019 was released 11 months after the 2018 model.

I think that's fair.

 

[farewelwilliams]

Are you talking about the AirPower wireless charger? I do not remember the AirPods 2 being on hold, unless you think it was because of the lack of AirPower shipping.

No, not specifically AirPower, but AirPower played a role. Apple removed all mentions of AirPower in September 2018 from every single page on their website which is likely when they cancelled AirPower. AirPods 2 was released in March 2019 and still had mentions of AirPower on the box. This tells us that at the very least, AirPods 2 boxes were printed before or around September 2018 and since it's very unlikely Apple would print boxes several months early, this tells us that Apple had every intention of releasing AirPods 2 in 2018. Rumors by the reliable Mark Gurman support the idea that Apple wanted to release new AirPods in 2018 as well. Instead, AirPods 2 was on hold at least from September 2018 to March 2019.

There is no next year's model...Navi Mobile is a 2020 product at this point. We are almost half way through the year and the only thing of note announced at Computex 2019 was the Radeon RX5700 GPU, a desktop part.

I'm talking about next year's MacBook model which was the recently released 2019 MacBook Pro.

There is no common release date for the MacBook Pro if you look at their history from 2006 to today. The only months where Apple does not introduce new MacBook Pros are August-September (too late for Back To School sales) and November-December (too late for Black Friday and holiday sales).

Macbook Pro 2007 was released in November 1, 2007.
iMacs/Mac minis which are very much marketed towards students and parents have had September release dates. Haven't seen a PR disaster for those.

Also, I reckon MacBook Pros aren't as important to students compared to the non-pro products like the iMac/Mac mini/MacBooks due to the drastic price points.

Again, Vega 16/20 was always going to be a BTO option, not the default GPU, so releasing the 8th Gen update to the MacBook Pros in May-July before BTS started was a given. Had Apple wanted to make Vega 16/20 the default, then they would have waited. Even now, Vega is still a BTO option six months after release.

Again, I don't think BTS is the main factor as I stated above.

Apple could have stated "new Vega 16/20 graphics available in a few months". That would have made all customers happy. In fact, IIRC when the new Vega graphics options were announced, they stated that the MBP with Vega 20 would be arriving a few weeks later than the other options. Nothing wrong with saying "it's coming in a few months, but you can get the less powerful options now".

The reason I believe Apple pulled this is to answer shareholders. They needed to sell new MBP during that quarter.

 

[Glockworkorange]

I can’t reason with you if you say they’ve abandoned the Mac. They sold 18M of them...very stable.

You being “convinced” the most profitable company in the world could do anything close to 2-3 times revenue growth is absurd. They are the most profitable company in the word because they know exactly what they’re doing and don’t need your advice. Frankly, you’re wrong.

I don't see how they've "abandoned" the Mac. Less emphasis? Sure. The $$$ is in mobile and services. But abandoned? No. They've abandoned the non-touch iPods and routers.

The laptops and desktops are in a really mature place. The phones and tablets are getting there. That's how these things work.

 

[farewelwilliams]

The Vega 20 was released in November; that's four months after the device released in July.

The 2019 was released 11 months after the 2018 model.

I think that's fair.

MBP were sold out for a while and I didn't get mines until August so I was going based off of my experience which was three months even though I preordered on day 1.

Even at 4 months, Apple could have simply stated that the Vega 20 graphics option wouldn't ship for a few months until November. Problem solved for everyone. The reason why Apple didn't is because they needed to answer shareholders for that quarter, so they couldn't gamble on people waiting until next quarter to receive their product.

 

[Peperino]

I have little doubt that Apple is going to lose market share over almost every product line, in particular the Mac (iPhone as well, albeit probably to a lesser degree).
If Apple discontinued FCXP and released Xcode/iOS SDK for other platforms (Linux!!) there'd be no convincing reason to buy a Mac any more (sadly, given macOS is not bad at all. Mostly)

Many audio and video Pro studios, that have 5-6 computers per studio and have been long time Apple users, for the first time they have been switching to hackintoshes or building upgraded old cheese grater.

I wonder why...

Having recommended Apple for many years as a consultant, I believe not a single product in the Pro line up is worth recommending. It is that bad.
[doublepost=1559267419][/doublepost]

I don't see how they've "abandoned" the Mac. Less emphasis? Sure. The $$$ is in mobile and services. But abandoned? No. They've abandoned the non-touch iPods and routers.

The laptops and desktops are in a really mature place. The phones and tablets are getting there. That's how these things work.

We all know money is not in the computer line up since iPhones have been bringing 60-70% of revenue and wearables and services are on the rise. Which does not mean they should be releasing pathetic products like the MBP and make the user test them, or have updated cycles from 4-6 years.
It is just Tim Cook greed who clearly is NOT an innovator that is bringing the entire computer line up to a jokable state.

There plenty of room to improve both laptops and desktops. There is simply not a will to do it.
In 2019 the iMac upgrade is shipping with a 5400rpm drive. Really?

Apple greediness is so beyond belief that is turning users away.

 

[Glockworkorange]

MBP were sold out for a while and I didn't get mines until August so I was going based off of my experience which was three months even though I preordered on day 1.

Even at 4 months, Apple could have simply stated that the Vega 20 graphics option wouldn't ship for a few months until November. Problem solved for everyone. The reason why Apple didn't is because they needed to answer shareholders for that quarter, so they couldn't gamble on people waiting until next quarter to receive their product.

I guess we can just agree to disagree. My understanding is Apple puts the chips in when they're ready and ships. If they don't update often enough, people complain. If they update too often, people complain. I'm not shedding tears for a multi-billion dollar company; just pointing out that you can't please everyone.
[doublepost=1559269227][/doublepost]

Many audio and video Pro studios, that have 5-6 computers per studio and have been long time Apple users, for the first time they have been switching to hackintoshes or building upgraded old cheese grater.

I wonder why...

Having recommended Apple for many years as a consultant, I believe not a single product in the Pro line up is worth recommending. It is that bad.
[doublepost=1559267419][/doublepost]

We all know money is not in the computer line up since iPhones have been bringing 60-70% of revenue and wearables and services are on the rise. Which does not mean they should be releasing pathetic products like the MBP and make the user test them, or have updated cycles from 4-6 years.
It is just Tim Cook greed who clearly is NOT an innovator that is bringing the entire computer line up to a jokable state.

There plenty of room to improve both laptops and desktops. There is simply not a will to do it.
In 2019 the iMac upgrade is shipping with a 5400rpm drive. Really?

Apple greediness is so beyond belief that is turning users away.

I agree they shouldn't be shipping spinning drives in 2019. They do that to his a price point below $2,000.00. Doesn't make it right; it's just business.

Could there be more innovation in the computer space? Sure. But resources as in engineers are probably more sparse than we think. They're going to put the talent and innovation where the money is, which is in mobile, services, AR and software. Laptops and desktops are not where the money is. Most consumers don't pay attention to MacRumors and most people don't need an 8 core laptop. Why sink the money in such a small market?

Look, I agree in that I'm more of a Mac guy and I want all Mac, all the time. I'd love to see more innovation and quicker design turn around. I'd love to see WWDC focused only on macOS and laptops and desktops. The iOS stuff doesn't really interest me.

I just know that's not going to happen because this is not 2005 Apple.

 

[09872738]

Could there be more innovation in the computer space? Sure. But resources as in engineers are probably more sparse than we think. They're going to put the talent and innovation where the money is, which is in mobile, services, AR and software.

Well, AR is hyped at present. If there is money in it we don't know yet. For now AR is rather disappointing - of course this may change.

Anyway, I am also a computer guy. But I am not necessarily asking for innovation. At times maybe quite the opposite: I'd be fine with an up to date, plain old Cheesegrater. Or a 2015 MBP with up to date specs.

Those are just fine; no need for innovation just for the sake of it. Certainly not asking for innovations like the Touchbar, USB-C only, glued batteries or soldered RAM and SSDs.

 

[Glockworkorange]

Tim Cook's job is to grow the company by creating and sustaining revenue while providing jobs and benefits to his employees. If Services are another avenue for Apple to create value and revenue, and it's boring...well, I guess that is all in the eye of the beholder.

I do not think the Mac division is an annoyance to Apple, but they have to focus on where the largest chance of growth is going to be to meet their financial targets and objectives. The Mac division is not where the biggest opportunities are at right now and they haven't been for the past 8 years.

Please, be realistic...Apple is never going to sell off the Mac division. Apple has built an ecosystem for all of these products (iPhone, iPad, Watch and Mac) and that ecosystem is important to them, regardless of what you or I or anyone else thinks. If it wasn't, why did Apple just refresh the 13" and 15" MacBook Pros last week? The 21.5" and 27" iMac back in March? The 13" MacBook Air and Mac mini back in later October? Because they had to? Nope...Apple sold the Mac mini for 4 years straight without an upgrade, without batting so much as an eyelash. Same with the 2015/2017 13" MacBook Air, which they sold unchanged for 3-1/2 years.

Is it possible for Apple to grow Mac revenues and marketshare? Yes, anything is possible. Personally, I believe there is some upside to the Mac that Apple could take advantage of which they are not, but that is my personal belief only and I don't pretend to know what the long term strategic plans are for the company. Which means what I think is irrelevant to Apple, as it should be. Yes, I want Apple to listen, but they are going to do what they are going to do, regardless. Apple is a business, not a wish fulfillment center.

Apple is not tormenting customers...maybe you believe they are tormenting you, but they are not...at least, not on purpose. They have a lot of satisfied customers who like and enjoy the current lineup of Apple products.

Apple does care about the Mac, just not the way you and many others here on these forums want them to care about the Mac...it doesn't mean that they are ignoring the Mac, even though it has felt like it at times. It means that they had to focus on growing other part of the business that have the most upside, growth and long term profit potential. It is what it is.
[doublepost=1559233425][/doublepost]

Yeah, I don't think so...Apple has release schedules and purchasing contracts that are in place for CPUs, support chips and components months ahead of a changeover or update to any of their products. Coupled with the just in time nature of Apple manufacturing and the goal of keeping as little inventory on shelves and in warehouses as possible, Apple cannot simply put something on hold for 6-7 months when a partner like AMD hits a roadblock...which is what this ended up being.

It makes no sense for Apple to have waited for July 11th to introduce the 2018 MacBook Pro. Odd date, and after WWDC. Intel released those CPUs in April of 2018, just like they did with the 9th Gen. Initial supplies were constrained a bit, but Apple could have announced before or during WWDC. That's certainly where the marketing value would have been. I think Apple put things on hold just a bit to give AMD time to get the Vega 16/20 GPUs yields where Apple needed them. AMD hit a roadblock, Apple said we have to ship before Back To School. AMD said they couldn't make it in time and Apple shipped. Better to ship minus a couple of upper tier GPU options than to release an updated MacBook Pro a month or two after BTS winds down and piss off students and parents who just bought the supposed latest and greatest that was already a year old and updated CPUs existed. The PR hit for that would be horrible, versus the heat Apple took for the Vega release. It was always meant to be a BTO option, never the default GPU. I simply don't think AMD had the yields to make enough for Apple's needs. AMD has been focusing on its core CPU business, because that business is crucial to their success long term. They have to compete with Intel and claw away at market share, which they seem to be doing pretty well. Gaining marketshare on NVIDIA is a ton more difficult at this point for a whole host of reasons.

Also, there is zero correlation between Apple "making" us wait 6-7 years for a new Mac Pro and Apple making us wait for a BUILD TO ORDER GPU update for the MacBook Pro.

All very well said. I think a lot of us forum readers don’t understand that although we’re the LOUDEST fan base, we’re also the smallest.

When the Mac moves the ARM, these schedules are going to change—perhaps drastically, as Apple won’t need to rely on Intel and AMD.

 

[farewelwilliams]

Well, AR is hyped at present. If there is money in it we don't know yet. For now AR is rather disappointing - of course this may change.

Anyway, I am also a computer guy. But I am not necessarily asking for innovation. At times maybe quite the opposite: I'd be fine with an up to date, plan old Cheesegrater. Or a 2015 MBP with up to date specs.

Those are just fine; no need for innovation just for the sake of it. Certainly not asking for innovations like the Touchbar, USB-C only, glued batteries or soldered RAM and SSDs.

I don't recall saying what you quoted me on. Wait, what is going on?
[doublepost=1559292134][/doublepost]

I guess we can just agree to disagree. My understanding is Apple puts the chips in when they're ready and ships. If they don't update often enough, people complain. If they update too often, people complain. I'm not shedding tears for a multi-billion dollar company; just pointing out that you can't please everyone.

Doesn't make sense considering the 4 year gap of the Mac mini. There were plenty of chips in those 4 years. In fact, Mac mini datacenters relied on Mac mini hardware for their entire business. So if they can put that off for 4 years, they could put off the MacBook Pro for an extra few months.

 

[Glockworkorange]

I don't recall saying what you quoted me on. Wait, what is going on?
[doublepost=1559292134][/doublepost]

Doesn't make sense considering the 4 year gap of the Mac mini. There were plenty of chips in those 4 years. In fact, Mac mini datacenters relied on Mac mini hardware for their entire business. So if they can put that off for 4 years, they could put off the MacBook Pro for an extra few months.

I think the Mini was a dead product walking up until two years ago.

 

[AHDuke99]

You might want to wait to see how much Best Buy, Adorama, B&H or Amazon discounts a brand new 2018 MacBook Pro unless you need one right now. I got a 2016 2.9GHz/16GB/1TB/RX460 for $2299, which was and still is $370 less than what Apple charges for a Certified Refurbished.

Source: https://www.apple.com/shop/product/...core-Intel-Core-i7-with-Retina-display-Silver

Unfortunately, I don't think Best Buy sells the MBPs with the Vega 20 chip.

 

[Zdigital2015]

Unfortunately, I don't think Best Buy sells the MBPs with the Vega 20 chip.

You are correct...and if the Vega 16/20 is a requirement for you then Apple Refurbished, Adorama, B&H Photo, MacMall or ABT Electronics are going to be the sites to check for deals. Most of the recent deals I have gotten on Macs or iPads have been through AppleInsider.

For me, the Vega 16/20 is not enough of an improvement that I would invest the additional money unless I was mobile over 60-70% of the time where an eGPU was impractical for me to use or setup for an extended period of time. Meaning, I am traveling to and from location to location during the week or if the contract was a short duration. If I was that mobile, then I would pick it up in a heartbeat as I would want all the mobile performance I can get.

Even then, I think I would consider the Sonnet Tech eGFX Breakaway Puck 560/570 first, but its really dependent on your individual situation.

Just a note about Apple Refurbs...ever since the 2019 dropped, those cheaper Vega options and just about anything in the $2300-$3000 range go quick from the store. Good luck!

 

[Peperino]

Laptops and desktops are not where the money is. Most consumers don't pay attention to MacRumors and most people don't need an 8 core laptop. Why sink the money in such a small market?

Look, I agree in that I'm more of a Mac guy and I want all Mac, all the time. I'd love to see more innovation and quicker design turn around. I'd love to see WWDC focused only on macOS and laptops and desktops. The iOS stuff doesn't really interest me.

I just know that's not going to happen because this is not 2005 Apple.

Although I agree with you that Laptops and desktops is not where the money is, the reason they are not making money is because users are not willing to pay for the way overpriced pathetic products Apple is releasing. Apple could have been selling twice as many computer units if they simply release a decent product.
I also agree that wearables and services will be on the rise, though computers will not go away since they are needed in multiple areas like design, video editing, music, etc...

Sadly Tim Cook is only focus on making money, releasing services such as Apple credit card and with a company that had defrauded millions of people in 2008... How pathetic is that?
His policy of raising prices uncontrollably is reaching a tipping point so much so that even iPhones sales had a massive drop.

 

[farewelwilliams]

I think the Mini was a dead product walking up until two years ago.

i don't think so. it's likely apple spent time building the new pro team to head the Mac Pro/iMac Pro/ and Mac mini products. it's just took them a while to figure everything out.

 

[Peperino]

i don't think so. it's likely apple spent time building the new pro team to head the Mac Pro/iMac Pro/ and Mac mini products. it's just took them a while to figure everything out.

Apple spent time to built what?
- The Mac Mini after 4 years they release a "new" Mac mini with the exact 4 year old case that already had problems with heating. Furthremore, the internal SSD is not replaceable and the RAM is a pain to upgrade.
- The iMac Pro- Same 8 year old external design where you cannot even adjust the computer vertically. One more time, who will pay 10k for a so called computer and you cannot upgrade the SSD or Ram?

- The MBP is one of the worse products ever designed by Apple.

The entire "Pro" line up is a joke...

Looking at all this why should we expect anything different but another pathetic Mac Pro overpriced upgrade...? which by the way is 6 years and counting...

 

[alfsawful]

Not sure what everyone does to their Macs, never had a single keyboard issue, you lot must abuse your kit, in which case, it will break!

 

[Apache1]

Apple spent time to built what?
- The Mac Mini after 4 years they release a "new" Mac mini with the exact 4 year old case that already had problems with heating. Furthremore, the internal SSD is not replaceable and the RAM is a pain to upgrade.
- The iMac Pro- Same 8 year old external design where you cannot even adjust the computer vertically. One more time, who will pay 10k for a so called computer and you cannot upgrade the SSD or Ram?

- The MBP is one of the worse products ever designed by Apple.

The entire "Pro" line up is a joke...

Looking at all this why should we expect anything different but another pathetic Mac Pro overpriced upgrade...? which by the way is 6 years and counting...

[doublepost=1566930460][/doublepost]I’ve have used MBP for a very long time and typically would get an average of 7 -10 years of use out of them. They remained fast almost completely through their lifespan. Only recently past 5 years have the Dell XPS have been comparable but before that between HP, Dell and others just junk after 2 years of use. Til this day HP touch pads are barely useable. Engineers, scientists, programmers are using MBP’s now a days.

 

[Peperino]

[doublepost=1566930460][/doublepost]I’ve have used MBP for a very long time and typically would get an average of 7 -10 years of use out of them. They remained fast almost completely through their lifespan. Only recently past 5 years have the Dell XPS have been comparable but before that between HP, Dell and others just junk after 2 years of use. Til this day HP touch pads are barely useable. Engineers, scientists, programmers are using MBP’s now a days.

And your point is?
MBPs before 2016 were ok. Any MBP after 2016+ were a massive failure both in design and quality.
That shows how much Apple cares about their so called "Pro" line up. It took them 4 years just to fix a failing keyboard.
And 6 years to fix the Mac Pro, which was another massive failure.

 

[Apache1]

And your point is?
MBPs before 2016 were ok. Any MBP after 2016+ were a massive failure both in design and quality.
That shows how much Apple cares about their so called "Pro" line up. It took them 4 years just to fix a failing keyboard.
And 6 years to fix the Mac Pro, which was another massive failure.

Well it took 20 years for Dell and Microsoft to come up with a decent track pad and the others are still so bad people automatically get a mouse. Not to mention for the first two decades Windows was infected so much people were spending hundreds of dollars to go get viruses removed (remember those days, I do). I remember the Norton anti virus that slowed Windows so badly you could go get a cup of coffee before it launched Word. And don't get me started with Word and Excel macro viruses that lasted a decade. Oh and remember the Intel debacle (Mac was using Motorola at the time) where math computations were faulty and caused everyone to buy a new computer or replace the CPU, from nearly every sector that might cause a plane to go down or nuclear accident. I have been using Windows since the beginning and every other version has been consistently junk. XP was a major achievement and Windows 7 but the rest I don't think very highly of. What is it with Windows 10 and text? It's like they removed every possible icon they could.

Picked up this Macbook Air 2018 8Gb ram and 256 for $1150 at BestBuy and its been awesome so far. I ported everything over from my 2012 MBPr including Parallels with Windows 10 Pro and it takes 11 seconds to boot up Windows 10 Pro. I am running CAD on both Mac OS and Windows 10 Pro simultaneously and it works great really surprised even without the dedicated video card it runs well. Very light and easy to fly with.