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Re: Re: Disk drives are accurately sold...

Originally posted by ZeeOwl
Yup. And actually operating systems (including Mac OS X, you-hoo Apple!) incorrectly display it as 172.3 GB, instead of 172.3 GiB. They're misleading the user by not using the correct SI prefix.
Sorry, but I have to take issue with this one. As has already been mentioned elsewhere on this board, the prefixes refer either to powers of two or powers of ten depending on the context. (I'm not talking about what the SI says they mean. I'm talking about how they're actually used in practice.) The fact that some random, unelected somebody came along, for reasons unknown, and decided to arbitrarily decide that giga, which previously meant either 10^9 or 2^30 depending on context, should mean only 10^9, and that using giga to mean 2^30 should suddenly be wrong, is irrelevant. What matters is how the terms are actually used in the real world, for that's from whence they derive their meanings.

Words don't mean what some guy in an ivory tower says they mean. They mean what the consensus agrees that they mean. So in this case, in practical terms, the world is right and the SI is wrong.

If you want to refer to 2^30 bytes by a word that is meaningless to the vast majority of humanity and that, when pronounced correctly, sounds like baby-talk, then be my guest. When you do, though, be prepared to launch into your explanation of how everybody else uses the term incorrectly because some French dude says so. And be prepared to be scoffed at in return.

Never forget: the purpose of language is to communicate. When you deliberately choose to use a vocabulary that is different from, and semantically incompatible with, the vocabulary of the person or people you're trying to communicate with, you're not communicating. You're actively hindering communication.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: not using 20 GiB of VM today on a Mac....

Originally posted by fourthtunz
Well these damn numbers, the richest man in the world is a college dropout and not a Mac user!(or is he??)
I do agree with what you say though, we Mac users are smarter:D
I thought the richest man in the world was the Sultan of Brunei? Last I heard, his personal net worth was measured in the hundreds of billions of dollars, but I can't recall the precise figure.

Anybody know what kind of laptop the Sultan of Brunei uses? ;)
 
Re: Re: Re: Disk drives are accurately sold...

Originally posted by Rincewind42
I would think this is mearly inertia. I have yet to see any computer industry literature use these SI prefixes (and given they have been out since 1999 and it seems people are just starting to use them 4 years later it doesn't seem like this will be coming soon).

Personally, I think that we could have avoided the whole issue if the storage industry had just used x-byte prefixes like everyone else in the computer industry does instead of first coming out with the whole 'formatted capacity' bull and then finally admitting that they are just measuring 1GB=1 billion bytes. That is what I think confuses people more than GB or GiB.

You're right. It is inertia (you're talking about the GB thing, not the mph thing, right? lol). Give it time. The SI system as we know it today has been out for over 80 years, and some countries are still using imperial. There's Liberia, Burma, and another one, what's it called again?... hehe

You're right things would have been simpler if HD manufacturer's had stuck to the old implied binary convention. But on the other hand, I'm glad they messed up. Because it forced the SI commitee to clear up an ambiguity in the system. And ambiguity is not a good thing to have in a measurement standard.
 
Networking has always been in the base 10 camp

Originally posted by ZeeOwl
You're right things would have been simpler if HD manufacturer's had stuck to the old implied binary convention. But on the other hand, I'm glad they messed up. Because it forced the SI commitee to clear up an ambiguity in the system.

On the other hand, mega and giga have always been base 10 in networking. Your gigabit ethernet is 1,000,000,000 bits per second, the 100baseT is 100,000,000 bits per second. Your modem, your fax, your ASR-33 teletype....

It wasn't "clearing up an ambiguity" - the SI prefixes were always base 10. The standards groups are trying to disambiquify the situation by creating a "base 2" prefix so that the "base 10" prefix can once again be clear.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Disk drives are accurately sold...

Originally posted by ZeeOwl
You're right. It is inertia (you're talking about the GB thing, not the mph thing, right? lol). Give it time. The SI system as we know it today has been out for over 80 years, and some countries are still using imperial. There's Liberia, Burma, and another one, what's it called again?... hehe
lol ?
i think i guessed it...
well there are quite many :D like australia, us ( officially adopted it i think but pratically nobody uses it ) than there is south africa ( which i m not sure about ) ..
list to be completed.
 
Re: Networking has always been in the base 10 camp

Originally posted by AidenShaw
It wasn't "clearing up an ambiguity" - the SI prefixes were always base 10. The standards groups are trying to disambiquify the situation by creating a "base 2" prefix so that the "base 10" prefix can once again be clear.
not really true....
infact, for instance the acid grade can be calculated with the natural logarithms, and the non - natural ones. the non - natural ones, are not based on the "10 system "
but i might be wrong.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Disk drives are accurately sold...

Originally posted by maradong
lol ?
i think i guessed it...
well there are quite many :D like australia, us ( officially adopted it i think but pratically nobody uses it ) than there is south africa ( which i m not sure about ) ..
and I am wayyyy off topic.
Australia has been metric for more than 20 years: currency first, then measurements a few years later. Even Canada and the UK still mix pounds/ounces and miles with Kg and Km. The US is not likely to change, as it is not clearly in its interest to do so, Mars Lander notwithstanding. I have lived with both systems... I hate Celcius and hectares but like kilograms. Milligrams make sense: I loathe Mmols and other ISO difficulties that makes blood sugars and cholesterol values much less clear than the larger older metric units. Now, isn't it interesting that the US (yeah! I said it) is so innovative and productive compared to so many of those countries that LOVE telling the US how backward it by not using the only logical system in the Universe... ISO 2000 +. Now, isn't it? Et, messieurs, c'est absolument impossible, n'est-ce pas? Imaginez cela!
 
Re: Re: Networking has always been in the base 10 camp

Originally posted by maradong
for instance the acid grade can be calculated with the natural logarithms, and the non - natural ones


????

The discussion has been focussed on the SI prefixes "kilo", "mega", "giga", etc.

What are you talking about - pH?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: not using 20 GiB of VM today on a Mac....

Originally posted by fourthtunz
the richest man in the world is a college dropout and not a Mac user
This is specifically why I used the word "education" and not the word "intelligence". :p

The non-Mac using rich guy seems pretty smart, even if he got bored with university!
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: not using 20 GiB of VM today on a Mac....

Originally posted by Jeff Harrell
I thought the richest man in the world was the Sultan of Brunei? Last I heard, his personal net worth was measured in the hundreds of billions of dollars, but I can't recall the precise figure.

Anybody know what kind of laptop the Sultan of Brunei uses? ;)

Forbes #1 last year was Gates, I'm not sure what laptop he uses:D
daniel
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: not using 20 GiB of VM today on a Mac....

Originally posted by fourthtunz
Forbes #1 last year was Gates

Forbes only ranks the richest people in America.
 
Re: Disk drives are accurately sold...

Originally posted by rjwill246
Now, isn't it interesting that the US (yeah! I said it) is so innovative and productive compared to so many of those countries that LOVE telling the US how backward it by not using the only logical system in the Universe... ISO 2000 +. Now, isn't it? Et, messieurs, c'est absolument impossible, n'est-ce pas? Imaginez cela!
I like the way IBM innovates: the PowerPC 970 has a 121 mm2 die, is based on a 0.13 µm (130nm) CMOS SOI technology and is packaged in a 25x25 mm CBGA module that counts 576 pins on 1 mm pitch ;)
 
Originally posted by Furious Tiger
would it hurt apple so much if they tricked out the mobos like intel an other mobo manufacturers do to get the edge. 800MHz FSB has just been released
Yup, they were already released, but they will be limited to the DDR400 throughput. If MB's rumor is true, the new PowerMacs will be a lot faster that any PIV, even if they are at 3.6Ghz and have only DDR400. The reason: The individual memory bank per processor.
 
check the specs....it's equivalent to DDR800....

Originally posted by hacurio1
Yup, they were already released, but they will be limited to the DDR400 throughput.

Maybe if you'd bother to check your info, you'd see that the Intel DDR 400 is dual channel - two DDR400 DIMMs clocked in parallel for DDR 800MHz performance....

http://developer.intel.com/design/motherbd/bz/index.htm

Don't look at the specs of the individual DIMMs, and think that you can infer the specs of the mobo from that!

In fact, some of the Intel server boards choose to use PC1600 in sets of 4 to get PC6400 performance. The slower speed PC1600 DIMMs run cooler and are therefore more reliable.
 
also, check out NUMA in the literature!

Originally posted by hacurio1
The reason: The individual memory bank per processor.


Think again about this one too.

NUMA is good when your program needs data that's in the memory attached to the CPU that you're currently running on. If the data happens to be in the other CPU's memory bank, then you have added latency to get to the data, and it runs slower.

I'd be *very* surprised if the Apple mobo uses NUMA for a dual processor.... Typically, NUMA systems have groups of 4 to 8 CPUs per memory domain (traditional SMP memory semantics). You build 32 to 64 to nnn CPU systems by linking these 4 to 8 CPU modules together, and memory in the local group is fast, and memory attached to other CPU groups is slower.

Think about it - lots of extra overhead if your program runs on CPU 1, and all of its data is in the RAM attached to CPU 0.
 
Re: check the specs....it's equivalent to DDR800....

Originally posted by AidenShaw
Maybe if you'd bother to check your info, you'd see that the Intel DDR 400 is dual channel - two DDR400 DIMMs clocked in parallel for DDR 800MHz performance....

http://developer.intel.com/design/motherbd/bz/index.htm

Don't look at the specs of the individual DIMMs, and think that you can infer the specs of the mobo from that!

In fact, some of the Intel server boards choose to use PC1600 in sets of 4 to get PC6400 performance. The slower speed PC1600 DIMMs run cooler and are therefore more reliable.

I'm aware of the 6.4GB/s theoretical throughput of the Dual Channel DDR400, But since the rumor mentions a dual processor dual memory bank motherboard with, what it has been mentioned to be, two north bridges, I assumed better performance. Nobody knows specifics regarding the motherboards, nor memory controllers, but as far as I've read the 970 is a excellent at SMP, hence my assumption. As IBM describes it, the 970's FSB is an "elastic interface" allowing easy multiprocessor synchronization, memory sharing, and memory coherency. Two 970s with two bridges and two memory banks allows a 6.4GB/s throughput per processor. So it's all up to how does Apple design the Motherboard. If they do a poor job, then yes, the performance (throughput related) between a PIV in an 875 chipset will be similar; but, if Apples does a great job designing the Motherboard and memory controllers, then a PIV in an 875 chipset will not stand the chance (Assuming dual 970s). But yes, it was my mistake to state a rumor as a fact because none of us know specifics about the Motherboards and memory controller’s design of the next PowerMacs.
 
Re: Re: Disk drives are accurately sold...

Originally posted by ZeeOwl
Yup. And actually operating systems (including Mac OS X, you-hoo Apple!) incorrectly display it as 172.3 GB, instead of 172.3 GiB. They're misleading the user by not using the correct SI prefix. The number is right, it's the letters that are wrong. Sort of like when Americans come up here... If our speed limit signs said 100 mph, that would be misleading, because the limit is actually 100 km/h.

Oh, quit your whining. 1GB=1024MB, 1MB=1024K, 1K=1024 bytes. That's what it means in the real world. The SI-monkeys can call it whatever they want, but as rational individuals, we have the right not to go along with them when they're being stupid.

They're being stupid.

And changing to the metric system isn't worth the effort needed to change.
 
Disk drives are accurately sold...

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Oh, quit your whining. 1GB=1024MB, 1MB=1024K, 1K=1024 bytes. That's what it means in the real world.

In the "real world" K=1000, M=1,000,000, G=1,000,000,000 long before some computer types started to misuse the terms.

Not even "all" computer types, the storage and networking people still use the original base 10 meaning.

The "stupidity" is to continue the current ambiguous use of the long-standing SI prefixes. Learn to type the little "i" when using a binary prefix - you'll fit into the mainstream better!
 
No offense, but who cares?

GiB/GB

1000/1024

17'/15'

Come on kids, does it really matter that much?

I shoulda gone to Karaoke (ha - look at me with my bad grammar, and spelling and misusing words. Bet that's driving y'all nutz n'stuff).
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Disk drives are accurately sold...

Originally posted by rjwill246
Now, isn't it interesting that the US (yeah! I said it) is so innovative and productive compared to so many of those countries that LOVE telling the US how backward it by not using the only logical system in the Universe... ISO 2000 +.

:D

You should be careful to open that door... ;) Innovative... maybe, but not more than other industrialized countries. Maybe also because in science they use the metric system anyway? ... world-wide! ;)

When it comes down to productivity especially the US is not #1... Get your facts straight.

In my opinion all this has more to do with the need of feeling special. In the given situation the US has the economical power to reject the metrical system. Like they rejected almost any standard in the past 50 years to "protect the local market"... It's like: "Hey, we do our own stuff, who cares about the rest of the world!"

But nothing lasts forever and you'll see how fast the US will join the party of the "metric countries"! ;)

And now back to the topic... :rolleyes: :cool:

groovebuster
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Disk drives are accurately sold...

Originally posted by maradong
lol ?
i think i guessed it...
well there are quite many :D like australia, us ( officially adopted it i think but pratically nobody uses it ) than there is south africa ( which i m not sure about ) ..
list to be completed.

Can't comment on South Africa, but Australia has been metric since the 60's (about the same time as Canada). I lived there from 1973 to 1976, and everything was 100% SI.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Disk drives are accurately sold...

Originally posted by rjwill246
Even Canada and the UK still mix pounds/ounces and miles with Kg and Km.

Can't comment on the UK (never been there), but Canada has been completely SI since the early 70's. The only place where the old imperial system is still commonly refered to is when people state their height and weight. Officially, we use SI for that too, but for some odd reason, people just can't seem to get used to the new system for their personal specs. :) For everything else, we're perfectly comfortable using metres and kilograms. Weird huh? As for miles, I don't think anyone up here under the age of 60 even knows how long a mile is! lol
 
Re: not using 20 GiB of VM today on a Mac....

Originally posted by AidenShaw
Maybe "rare" in the $399 PC world, but 512MiB to a couple Gig is pretty common in the rest of the world.

Pedantic note: If you are going to be pedantic about using "GiB" instead of "GB", the correct chort name for "Gibibyte" would be "Gib", not "Gig".

:)
 
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