New Apple TV - audio passthrough?

[MacinMan]

Hey all,
I have a question along this topic. I have recently gotten an Atmos and DTS:X compatible sound bar, and while I now know the Apple TV won't give me true uncompressed Amost like a UHD /standard Blu-ray would, my question is: I have the first gen Apple TV4K I was thinking about moving into the setup to replace the Apple TV HD, as on the 4K TV the Apple TV isn't really a suitable device because it doesn't have a direct connection to HDMI for audio so therefore, is either stereo, or has to be forced to output everything in Dolby digital 5.1 The TV on the setup that can provide direct HDMI for audio and video both is only 1080p, but most of the content I watch from day to day is HD anyway, or SD.

With this said, does the 2nd Gen Apple TV 4k add any audio features over the 1st Gen, or are they the same in that regard? For uncompressed audio I have a Blu-ray player on this setup, so I can play the movies from disc if I want the full soundtrack. I also Have a 2020 Roku Ultra on the setup which while doesn't do lossless audio, handles audio formats somewhat better than the ATV when it comes to streaming and passthrough. meaning it passes lossy codecs through, but not lossless.

I know it's been several months since the last post on this thread, but was curious as to what feedback people would offer at this time.

Thanks

 

[HDFan]

4K TV the Apple TV isn't really a suitable device because it doesn't have a direct connection to HDMI for audio so therefore, is either stereo, or has to be forced to output everything in Dolby digital 5.1 The TV on the setup that can provide direct HDMI for audio and video both is only 1080p, but most of the content I watch from day to day is HD anyway, or SD.

Don't understand. The Apple TV HDMI connections passes audio, sometimes Atmos, depending on the app.

I now know the Apple TV won't give me true uncompressed Amost like a UHD /standard Blu-ray would,

True.

does the 2nd Gen Apple TV 4k add any audio features over the 1st Gen, or are they the same in that regard?

Nope.

I also Have a 2020 Roku Ultra on the setup which while doesn't do lossless audio, handles audio formats somewhat better than the ATV when it comes to streaming and passthrough. meaning it passes lossy codecs through, but not lossless.

If lossless Atmos is your main concern for streaming get an Nvidia Shield Pro. Handles almost all audio lossless formats, including Atmos, with no problems. Hopefully Apple will fix this sometime.

 

[MacinMan]

Don't understand. The Apple TV HDMI connections passes audio, sometimes Atmos, depending on the app.



True.



Nope.



If lossless Atmos is your main concern for streaming get an Nvidia Shield Pro. Handles almost all audio lossless formats, including Atmos, with no problems. Hopefully Apple will fix this sometime.

It seems like you misunderstood my comment about my 4k setup and HDMI. Let me better clarify for you.
The initial 5.1 sound bars I purchased several years ago did NOT pass 4k/HDR, and only passed 1080p video. So to work around that I routed all devices through the TV directly and connected the sound bar to the TV by optical so the audio from the streamers went through the TV and out to the sound bar via optical. The Apple TV is the worst device for this kind of setup because it's not smart enough to simply pass audio through meaning if I wanted surround I'd have to force Dolby digital 5.1 in the settings, or I'd just get stereo. The only device that worked perfectly in this setup is my 4k blu-ray player as it has dual HDMI outs. So that's why I left the TV in the bedroom as 1080p only because of the early frustrations of dealing with 4k / HDR, and most of the content I really care about is still SD, or HD. So that's why I was considering swapping out the Apple TV HD, with the Apple TV 4K because the 4k will run at 1080p and still give me the new audio features.

So the main plan now is to use the new Atmos / DTS:X compatible sound bar in the 1080p setup for a while. If it proves reliable, then I'll get a second one for the 4K TV as that will be able to pass 4k / HDR over HDMI directly. Will just need to add a HDMI switch to that setup as the TV only has 2 HDMI 2.0 enhanced ports.

As for the other comments, I've considered a ShieldTV, and may eventually get one. I could also simply just use the discs for lossless playback.

Hope this clarifies the parts that may have been miscommunicated

 

[Jus711]

It seems like you misunderstood my comment about my 4k setup and HDMI. Let me better clarify for you.
The initial 5.1 sound bars I purchased several years ago did NOT pass 4k/HDR, and only passed 1080p video. So to work around that I routed all devices through the TV directly and connected the sound bar to the TV by optical so the audio from the streamers went through the TV and out to the sound bar via optical. The Apple TV is the worst device for this kind of setup because it's not smart enough to simply pass audio through meaning if I wanted surround I'd have to force Dolby digital 5.1 in the settings, or I'd just get stereo. The only device that worked perfectly in this setup is my 4k blu-ray player as it has dual HDMI outs. So that's why I left the TV in the bedroom as 1080p only because of the early frustrations of dealing with 4k / HDR, and most of the content I really care about is still SD, or HD. So that's why I was considering swapping out the Apple TV HD, with the Apple TV 4K because the 4k will run at 1080p and still give me the new audio features.

So the main plan now is to use the new Atmos / DTS:X compatible sound bar in the 1080p setup for a while. If it proves reliable, then I'll get a second one for the 4K TV as that will be able to pass 4k / HDR over HDMI directly. Will just need to add a HDMI switch to that setup as the TV only has 2 HDMI 2.0 enhanced ports.

As for the other comments, I've considered a ShieldTV, and may eventually get one. I could also simply just use the discs for lossless playback.

Hope this clarifies the parts that may have been miscommunicated

It seems like you misunderstood my comment about my 4k setup and HDMI. Let me better clarify for you.
The initial 5.1 sound bars I purchased several years ago did NOT pass 4k/HDR, and only passed 1080p video. So to work around that I routed all devices through the TV directly and connected the sound bar to the TV by optical so the audio from the streamers went through the TV and out to the sound bar via optical. The Apple TV is the worst device for this kind of setup because it's not smart enough to simply pass audio through meaning if I wanted surround I'd have to force Dolby digital 5.1 in the settings, or I'd just get stereo. The only device that worked perfectly in this setup is my 4k blu-ray player as it has dual HDMI outs. So that's why I left the TV in the bedroom as 1080p only because of the early frustrations of dealing with 4k / HDR, and most of the content I really care about is still SD, or HD. So that's why I was considering swapping out the Apple TV HD, with the Apple TV 4K because the 4k will run at 1080p and still give me the new audio features.

So the main plan now is to use the new Atmos / DTS:X compatible sound bar in the 1080p setup for a while. If it proves reliable, then I'll get a second one for the 4K TV as that will be able to pass 4k / HDR over HDMI directly. Will just need to add a HDMI switch to that setup as the TV only has 2 HDMI 2.0 enhanced ports.

As for the other comments, I've considered a ShieldTV, and may eventually get one. I could also simply just use the discs for lossless playback.

Hope this clarifies the parts that may have been miscommunicated

You can’t connect the soundbar to the TV via HDMI? I’m guessing it has no ARC or eARC capabilities? I will agree that the menu of the  TV itself is limited (all version) but it’s actually a bit more capable than it lets on and is somewhat dependent on the app. If you set it to auto it won’t send 5.1? My understanding is that auto sends everything as LPCM and then the device decides how to play it. that’s how it works on mine and I have  TV HD, 4k first and second gen, and also soundbars and a receiver.

 

[MacinMan]

@Jus711 I explained that the original Sound bars I was using only had an HDMI 1.4 port so it couldn't pass 4K / HDR as that's a 2.0 or newer features for full support. So, if I had done that, it would have defeated the purpose of having a 4k TV as all video content passed through the sound bar would have been confined to 1080p. That's why I decided to stick with a 1080p TV in the bedroom so I could have full quality audio at least on one setup. The new 2021 Vizio sound bar I purchased has eARC, and also is able to pass 4k / HDR. Hiowever, I'm going to use that one on the 10808p setup for now to make sure the audio is stable. Once that sound bar is paid off and proves stable, I will consider getting a second one for the 4K TV. For the time being, I have swapped my Apple TVs and put the HD on a non enhanced port since it only runs at 1080p anyway, and the 4K in the bedroom so I could try out Apple implementation of Atmos. If I wanted to, I could rout the Apple TV HD through the older sound bar now on that TV and get full audio on that device and not lose video quality now. Just a fyi, I do like HDR, and 4K video they have some really nice advantages. However, I've always cared about audio more. However with that said, it's nice when both work at their fullest potential and capabilities.

 

[Jus711]

@Jus711 I explained that the original Sound bars I was using only had an HDMI 1.4 port so it couldn't pass 4K / HDR as that's a 2.0 or newer features for full support. So, if I had done that, it would have defeated the purpose of having a 4k TV as all video content passed through the sound bar would have been confined to 1080p. That's why I decided to stick with a 1080p TV in the bedroom so I could have full quality audio at least on one setup. The new 2021 Vizio sound bar I purchased has eARC, and also is able to pass 4k / HDR. Hiowever, I'm going to use that one on the 10808p setup for now to make sure the audio is stable. Once that sound bar is paid off and proves stable, I will consider getting a second one for the 4K TV. For the time being, I have swapped my Apple TVs and put the HD on a non enhanced port since it only runs at 1080p anyway, and the 4K in the bedroom so I could try out Apple implementation of Atmos. If I wanted to, I could rout the Apple TV HD through the older sound bar now on that TV and get full audio on that device and not lose video quality now. Just a fyi, I do like HDR, and 4K video they have some really nice advantages. However, I've always cared about audio more. However with that said, it's nice when both work at their fullest potential and capabilities.

Right but I’m saying hook the  TV to the TV and then have all the sound routed to the sound bar through the TV

 

[MacinMan]

Right but I’m saying hook the  TV to the TV and then have all the sound routed to the sound bar through the TV

Oh, that's what I've done. However, what I forgot to mention is, the TV is a 2016 model, so while it has ARC, it doesn't support Dolby Plus, or lossless over ARC. So the sound coming from the Apple TV is stuck at either stereo, or Dolby digital 5.1. So, it's no better than optical The other reason I don't use ARC, is the ARC port is one of the two enhanced ports for HDR@60. So, for streaming the devices are stuck at going through the TV out optical, and for most cases this is fine because most if not all streaming services are lossy audio. The Problem with the Apple TV is, it requires a direct HDMI connection to an audio source for the auto function for audio to send PCM 5.1, or PCM Stereo by auto detection. Otherwise I have to manually set the audio output. That was my point from the start. The Apple TV is the worst device for this kind of setting because it doesn't use passthrough, and therefor can't choose between DD 5.1, or stereo on it's own unless it goes directly over either HDMI, or eARC.

This leads me back to the post above. I could now use audio / video passthrough with the Apple TV HD via the older sound bar on this setup now because it no longer requires 4k /HDR output so it's no longer compromising a port.

For a majority of the time this setup has been in use, I have used a Sony 4K UBP-X700 for both 4k / HDR, and PCM 5.1 audio because it has dual HDMI outputs so one was able to go directly to the TV and the other to the Sound bar HDMI in. and then I set the player to internally decode and send as PCM as the older bar only supports lossy audio with the exception of PCM over HDMI for multi channel lossless.

I want to make a point of how badly I think Apple designed the Apple TV, as much as they charge for it, they could have given it dual HDMI ports as well. One for A/V, and the other for audio only for this kind of setup. they have room, and the fact that the 4th Gen / now Apple TV HD has the USB c port as well proves that.

 

[Jus711]

Oh, that's what I've done. However, what I forgot to mention is, the TV is a 2016 model, so while it has ARC, it doesn't support Dolby Plus, or lossless over ARC. So the sound coming from the Apple TV is stuck at either stereo, or Dolby digital 5.1. So, it's no better than optical The other reason I don't use ARC, is the ARC port is one of the two enhanced ports for HDR@60. So, for streaming the devices are stuck at going through the TV out optical, and for most cases this is fine because most if not all streaming services are lossy audio. The Problem with the Apple TV is, it requires a direct HDMI connection to an audio source for the auto function for audio to send PCM 5.1, or PCM Stereo by auto detection. Otherwise I have to manually set the audio output. That was my point from the start. The Apple TV is the worst device for this kind of setting because it doesn't use passthrough, and therefor can't choose between DD 5.1, or stereo on it's own unless it goes directly over either HDMI, or eARC.

This leads me back to the post above. I could now use audio / video passthrough with the Apple TV HD via the older sound bar on this setup now because it no longer requires 4k /HDR output so it's no longer compromising a port.

For a majority of the time this setup has been in use, I have used a Sony 4K UBP-X700 for both 4k / HDR, and PCM 5.1 audio because it has dual HDMI outputs so one was able to go directly to the TV and the other to the Sound bar HDMI in. and then I set the player to internally decode and send as PCM as the older bar only supports lossy audio with the exception of PCM over HDMI for multi channel lossless.

I want to make a point of how badly I think Apple designed the Apple TV, as much as they charge for it, they could have given it dual HDMI ports as well. One for A/V, and the other for audio only for this kind of setup. they have room, and the fact that the 4th Gen / now Apple TV HD has the USB c port as well proves that.

Ok now I’ve got ya. No, to answer your original question the newest  TV won’t change anything in regards to your specific problem. I’m not sure it’s faulty design on ’s part as much as the “bag of hurt” that is HDMI and the evolving standards. I have a similar dilemma in my bedroom, my Vizio soundbar does Atmos but my Samsung LED in there doesn’t do eARC so I have to connect my  TV directly to the soundbar and then use the ARC output to the TV. That’s ok as the  TV serves most of my needs but if I want to hook anything else up I have to give up higher quality sound routing through the TV or physically swap devices into the soundbar. But my plan is to move my LG OLED to the bedroom and get a new Sony OLED in the living room And solve al of that.

 

[MacinMan]

Ok now I’ve got ya. No, to answer your original question the newest  TV won’t change anything in regards to your specific problem. I’m not sure it’s faulty design on ’s part as much as the “bag of hurt” that is HDMI and the evolving standards. I have a similar dilemma in my bedroom, my Vizio soundbar does Atmos but my Samsung LED in there doesn’t do eARC so I have to connect my  TV directly to the soundbar and then use the ARC output to the TV. That’s ok as the  TV serves most of my needs but if I want to hook anything else up I have to give up higher quality sound routing through the TV or physically swap devices into the soundbar. But my plan is to move my LG OLED to the bedroom and get a new Sony OLED in the living room And solve al of that.

I think I am just disappointed in Apple's design. They're box is the more expensive even over the Roku Ultra players I have. However, even though the Roku only has a single HDMI port it's able to do Passthrough.l For example if the program is in DD Plus, or DD 5.1, it just passes DD 5.1 through the TV out optical to the sound bar where it's decoded. The Roku Ultras have a Dolby decoder built in, so if it can't pass DD+ it converts it to standard DD 5.1 before passing it. Likewise with DTS content the Roku can pass standard DTS surround / stereo to supported receivers. So The Roku can deal with that setup as the only thing I'm missing out on is DD+ which really doesn't sound much different if at all than regular DD. I'm just disappointed that a cheaper box takes that into account but apple doesn't, and they cost more.

Now, if the new sound bar I got and put in the bedroom with Atmos support proves to work long term and is stable. I can get a second one down the road along with a 4K/HDR compatible HDMI switch and do what I've done on the 1080p setup with the 4K setup so these initial frustrations should no longer be a thing as I will have hardware that is all compatible at that point. The Sony I have runs android TV (the 2016 model I've been talking about) It's HDR 10, and HLG compatible with HDR. Dolby vision hasn't been a big push for me at this time because I have vision loss, so I don't know if I would be able to tell a difference visually between the two standards. I can tell HD from SD, and HDR from SDR, but DV vs HDR10 that verdict is sitll out. The good news is I have an iPhone 12 Pro Max that is OLED and can do DV, so far I haven't seen a huge difference, if any. The main difference is the screen is smaller so i can hold it closer and the pixels are more compact on the smaller than larger screen. So that's why I chose Atmos to explore first since I could probably appreciate it more. Now, I went into this knowing separate speakers will always be better, but I don't have the space, or permission to do that as I rent, so I couldn't mount speakers in the ceiling, etc.

I got the Vizio M51ax-J6 as my first Atmost run. It's full 5.1, can do all the typical codecs including lossless such as Master audio from DTS, and TrueHD from Dolby, it can do Dolby MAT on the Apple TV, and read Atmos from DD+, MAT, and TrueHD. The only difference is going to be, it virtualizes the height effects through DTS Virtual X. It also supports DTS:x, but for $330 bucks, I thought it was a good deal to try the next level in limited space, and budget without breaking the bank. I've also updated it to the latest firmware Vizio offers, so I've patched all initial bugs I think.

So far it's bee a great surround experience. Just playing with Atmos to learn what I'm supposed to expect since I'm new to that part. BTW the sound bar I got is also a brand new 2021 model. It just came out this year. It also has eARC as well as full HDMI, so it's future proof for a new TV when I am able to, or need to do that.

 

[MacinMan]

Hey @Jus711 : I have some great news for you. The new Atmos compatible sound bar works perfectly on my 4K/HDR10 setup. The new HDMI switch does as well, so I changed the two setups around this morning and now they're more equally balanced. So the 4K setup now has full audio support including atmos and lossless audio on blu-ray / 4k blu-ray and the 1080p has full audio support for the Apple TV when it comes to PCM 5.1, and the other devices have the dvd level codecs and Dolby Plus. I thought this was a better arrangement since Atmos especially for streaming, and even on certain discs is limited to 4K. One of my older sound bars is still dependable, and is better suited for the Non 4k setup. So, the Apple TV 4K can finally do PCM 5.1 in the 4k Setup as well too (as well as Atmos)

So, just thought I would let you know, it looks like going forward, my two setups are better balanced now since I got the newer audio hardware. Thanks again, for the help

EDIT: I forgot to mention that, the 1080p setup also has a UHD Blu-ray player (Sony UBP-X800) so I can watch 4K discs in SDR as if I wanted to watch Planet Earth II in bed, I only have it on 4k disc. Of course it works as a normal Blu-ray, and DVD player as well. It's also one of the few players that can still output multi channel PCM by internally decoding the codecs from disc. In the 4K setup, I have the UBP-X700 (which because of the new hardware, can just bitstream everything.)

 

[Nedywest71]

Could it be, these are compressed Atmos (Dolby Digital Plus)? That is the only one tvOS understands and bitstreaming is not available for Infuse.

Yes it is exactly that. Atmos ONLY as DD+

 

[anonymousmoose]

sorry, i posted on the wrong thread.

PS - I had the same issue but so far conclude its my television that's outdated.