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Saying that file folders are 'arcane' tells me you 1) are not in a profession that demands a lot of document creation/information retrieval or, 2) are too young to have yet created thousands of documents.

It's rather like having one dresser drawer that you throw everything into, clothes, dishes, silverware, books, literally everything you own. You might be able to eventually find something but the time and effort put into the 'sifting' is a waste.

Think the point was that folders within a file system are arcane, and they are - as is user access to the file system. If you want to see how to do it properly nowadays and the direction I would bet heavily that Apple are going in then have a look at Aperture or iPhoto.

You import the photo's and then the app takes over. You don't know where the photo is stored, what it's file name is, what folder structure is used on the file system and so on. None of that matters as the photo's are tagged with meta data and organised within logical folders and events etc within the app.

Kind of like throwing everything in to one dresser drawer but ensuring everything is labelled correctly, so when you want all your clothes they will all magically appear just by you opening the drawer and saying clothes.

Except iCloud and the Apple apps (both on iOS and Mac) aren't there yet, though I reckon they will be with the next major releases.
 
I feel like managing folders is an arcane concept that came from physical file folders containing documents and it's a paradigm that exists today despite superior ways of managing content (metadata for tagging and more).

Where you see "arcane", I see "analagous to the physical world". And honestly, so much of user interface is (and should be) about applying recognizable concepts to intangibles to make them tangible.

If I'm working on a design project, I put all the files (text, images, layouts) into a folder. I open that folder and I know everything I need is in that folder.

So what are you proposing, I just dump it all into some random location, tag it "poster" and then rely on a Spotlight search to turn it all up? What's the difference in effort there? And then I'm relying on my Spotlight index instead of a plain old set of folders that I recognize, can move, know how to act on or share or whatever.

Collecting like things together is just a basic concept of organization. Just because it has a conceptual link to things outside the computer doesn't mean you just throw the whole idea away.
 
See that wasn't so hard now was it? A simple tweak to the SDK and everyone can be happy.

The fact that Apple did it in the first place is pretty sad. They were splitting hairs and this look more like a crap reason than anything else. You had to dig pretty far to see that it was a problem.
 
I believe a computer's strength is in its ability to manage things that humans don't do quickly. I feel like managing folders is an arcane concept that came from physical file folders containing documents and it's a paradigm that exists today despite superior ways of managing content (metadata for tagging and more). Computers simply handle organization at a level of speed and efficiency that is orders of magnitude faster than we can. Every moment you spend fiddling with folder structure is a wasted moment of effort that could be applied elsewhere.

Metadata/tagging requires a similar organizational effort. You have to be consistent in tagging your files. You need to be specific. What you're really doing is creating folders again, but in the form of tags. The only advantage I see is that you can apply multiple tags on an item, whereas you can't put the same file in multiple folders, physically (without using copies or shortcuts).
 
Think the point was that folders within a file system are arcane, and they are - as is user access to the file system. If you want to see how to do it properly nowadays and the direction I would bet heavily that Apple are going in then have a look at Aperture or iPhoto.

You import the photo's and then the app takes over. You don't know where the photo is stored, what it's file name is, what folder structure is used on the file system and so on. None of that matters as the photo's are tagged with meta data and organised within logical folders and events etc within the app.

Kind of like throwing everything in to one dresser drawer but ensuring everything is labelled correctly, so when you want all your clothes they will all magically appear just by you opening the drawer and saying clothes.

Except iCloud and the Apple apps (both on iOS and Mac) aren't there yet, though I reckon they will be with the next major releases.

The example of Aperture (and BTW this data management technique obviously was not invented by Apple) is not quite applicable. This approach works for well defined work flows where you know upfront the types of files you will have and the types of properties (like tags, dates etc.) that you could use for sorting, querying the data. In real life, there are many situations where you need to aggregate or access data in a unique way. This is where applications like Aperture become useless. If iOS was used solely for dealing with pictures, Aperture approach would work just fine but since iOS in essence is a general purpose OS, the fact that it does not provide user level access to a file system is a huge problem. Many tasks that are trivial on "normal" OSes (like Android) are very hard or impossible to perform in iOS.
 
This idea of Apple's that they own iOS users and third parties need to pay an access fee in order to provide paid services is getting old. I'm going to be happy when the DoJ slaps a restraint of trade lawsuit on them.
 
Metadata/tagging requires a similar organizational effort. You have to be consistent in tagging your files. You need to be specific. What you're really doing is creating folders again, but in the form of tags. The only advantage I see is that you can apply multiple tags on an item, whereas you can't put the same file in multiple folders, physically (without using copies or shortcuts).

For custom tags yes but it requires no more effort than creating a folder. In fact when you think about what a folder really is it's simply a graphic that represents a tag.

I could have a folder structure that is Documents > 2011> Work> Presentations

Which easily is duplicatable as Tags.

The power of metadata becomes evident when the computer is smart enough to do much of a heavy lifting for you. For instance in Final Cut Pro X once you import video it analyzes the video and categorizes shots by their type. Close up, long shots, multiple people etc. You don't have to lift a finger and smart folders allow you to see these organized shots. Apple's moving away from every proliferating bins to a smarter tag/metadata system that is customizable (your own keywords and computer generated keywords)

While this may seem off topic Dropbox engineers probably took considerable effort to make sure all file attributes remained with the file despite that file being sent across their cloud infrastructure. A job well done on their part and likely these smarts are why Steve Jobs offered to acquire them (rumored).
 
Just sent the update of my app for approval 15 minutes ago. The irony of it is that I have added the SkyDrive support a week ago for this update and then I waited all this time for the latest Dropbox SDK.

;)

Now I hope it all goes well at Apple.
 
I love dropbox. It's like using a flashdrive, without the risk of losing it. I use it to sync Windows files at work with my Mac at home and my iPhone. The dropbox folder shows up in your My Documents folder. Transfer files like it was a plugged-in flashdrive, and it's free. If you sign up for dropbox through a referral, you get an extra 500 meg of storage for free. Here is a referral link. I've already reached my max free space through referrals, but you can get the extra space using a referral:

http://db.tt/SwHEFHx

You can share common files like MacJournal, Pages, Things, my favorite program Scrivener, and with some tweaks, iCal and iTunes. Always have the main file you need from your laptop anywhere. It will really change how you work.
 
Probably how you can put any type of file in DropBox.

Also, I enjoy how it's not App-Centric. The only way to view Pages documents are within the app itself. But, as a student, I liked to have all my documents (MP4 Video, Pages, Excel) for one project visible in one "folder" as opposed to not having a bird's eyeview about all the content.

You can make folders in pages by dragging the files on top of one another.
 
For custom tags yes but it requires no more effort than creating a folder. In fact when you think about what a folder really is it's simply a graphic that represents a tag.

I could have a folder structure that is Documents > 2011> Work> Presentations

Which easily is duplicatable as Tags.

You could. What you would need next would be some application that understood this tag structure. Something that would be able to do "cd", "copy", "move" etc (like file browser). And then you would probably want that all applications be aware of this tag structure. But wait, this thing already exists. It's called a file system. Have you tried creating a copy of a file by manipulating the tags?
 
For custom tags yes but it requires no more effort than creating a folder. In fact when you think about what a folder really is it's simply a graphic that represents a tag.

I could have a folder structure that is Documents > 2011> Work> Presentations

Which easily is duplicatable as Tags.

The power of metadata becomes evident when the computer is smart enough to do much of a heavy lifting for you. For instance in Final Cut Pro X once you import video it analyzes the video and categorizes shots by their type. Close up, long shots, multiple people etc. You don't have to lift a finger and smart folders allow you to see these organized shots. Apple's moving away from every proliferating bins to a smarter tag/metadata system that is customizable (your own keywords and computer generated keywords)

While this may seem off topic Dropbox engineers probably took considerable effort to make sure all file attributes remained with the file despite that file being sent across their cloud infrastructure. A job well done on their part and likely these smarts are why Steve Jobs offered to acquire them (rumored).

Apple isn't going for metatags so much as every program has a place for its files. You've got metatags in iTunes and whatnot, but mostly it's an app-centric you want access to your documents, you open up a document editor type setup. This isn't a terrible idea for the mom and dad types. It's not confusing in the least. Quite the opposite in fact, it's very straight forward.

But what about people like me? Say I'm working on one of my cheesy little 3D projects. I've got a small library of texture source shots, each one organized almost anal retentively by type and subtype. I want a brick? Go to the Bricks folder. Want swampy bricks? bricks\swampy bricks. This can be done easily with metatags. All I'd have to do there is search for swampy bricks, and there it is, all waiting for me, ready to edit.

After this, things get weird. I'll make multiple versions of the same swampy brick tutorial. I'll come up with better ideas as to what looks better, and save multiple iterative files the farther and farther I get. If I don't like the way something turned out later, or I just want to see what something will look like with an earlier version, I'll revert. Normally, I'll make a folder on my desktop and start piling all the resulting .psd and .tga files into it. But what if I only have access to metatags? I guess instead of having a handy folder with names like swampy_bricks_1.tga, swampy_bricks_2.tga, I'd be tagging everything as swampy_bricks_1, swampy_bricks_2, then doing a search for these files to open them up.

How is this any different than what I'm doing now? What if I want to look at my projects files long after I'm done? Instead of having to drill down through multiple folders, I'll be drilling down through a big ass database of tagged .tga files. It's not any better, not really any worse. To me, it's different for the sake of being different.

And then what happens when I start modelling and painting my UVs? I'll be using this .tga file I made, and mix them with other .tga files all culled from multiple source images. What if I want to keep all my source images in one spot, yet still keep them tied to the project for easy access in case I need them later? What do I do with my WIP shots? If I want to test them out to see how they currently look while I'm working on them? What do I do to separate the final results from those? With a folder setup, all I have to do is make subfolders. It'd be like this...

\project
\\Source Pictures
\\WIP
\\Final Textures

With metatags, I'd have to tag each and every image specifically with a huge string of search words. If I wanted to keep track of specific version of a specific texture in the making, I'd have to load it down with tags like swamp_project, UV, brick_test, WIP_1, red_color_test, ect, ect. I'd have to get more and more and more specific to sort it out from the other similar files in the project, let alone all the tens of billions of other files strewed across my metatag driven file system. This is opposed to a folder setup, where I can slap a quick name on it and throw it into a subfolder. If I want to find that file, I open said subfolder off a folder on my desktop, and give it a quick eyeball.

When it comes to complicated projects, a metatag only system isn't really any easier than a folder setup. Quite the opposite in fact, because you have to get almost achingly specific to keep track of things instead of just, you know, being moderately organized.

Plus, what happens when I want to reorganize after I'm done? Usually, I'll move the folder off my desktop to my dropbox projects folder. That's a drag a drop between two windows. In a metatag setup, I'd have to go through and edit the strings on the umpteen files I've made to sort it into a new category. Like my source shots. Once I'm done with them for the project, I dump them into a big source shots folder. Metatags? I guess I could label it source_shot, project_x, so I could find it as a source shot, AND project X. But when I'm done, I'll have to go and edit out the "project_x" or risk having a ton of junk data build up. If I'm too lax with the tag editing, then over time, I'll have this huge mess of potential search strings on my hands. Editing a whole crap-ton of tags on multiple files isn't nearly as easy as lasso selecting, cutting, and pasting it all into a new spot.

Holy crap, I can't believe I wrote all that. This isn't a post, it's a damn DISSERTATION!
 
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Meh, I don't understand why app developers are getting lazy these days. Why can't they keep up with Apple's premium standards? I guess if they can't, then they should be making money on the platform. Their loss.

What surprises me is this:

"Filip Radelic, the developer behind Cambox, quickly incorporated the new SDK into his app and submitted it to Apple yesterday. The app was quickly approved by Apple's reviewers and it is now available in the App Store."

How the hell does this guy get an app approved in only one day? Apple's been taking 7+ calendar days for mine.
 
You can make folders in pages by dragging the files on top of one another.

Yeah but I meant a folder containing all my files for a project (like on my Mac). If I'm working on a song, I have song lyrics in a Pages document, a MP3 for the audio, and a Garageband file. I want them in a folder together because they are for the same song but you can't do that in iOS.
 
Yeah but I meant a folder containing all my files for a project (like on my Mac). If I'm working on a song, I have song lyrics in a Pages document, a MP3 for the audio, and a Garageband file. I want them in a folder together because they are for the same song but you can't do that in iOS.

The current iCloud implementation for file storage is limited to say the least - it looks rushed and not finished. I presume they just ran out of time and that we will be seeing a lot of major improvements with the next versions of iOS and Mac OS.
 
To get people to understand the "file" part of dropbox (I think you meant iCloud), you need to get them to ignore all the other parts (calendar, addresses, synced program settings, etc.) and just focus on the files (like presentations) but then make it clear they can't access those presentations with out owning that particular app on the devices they want to use. So if they used Keynote on a iOS device, they need to buy it on their laptop/desktop.
Well, of course, to really make use of a Keynote presentation, you have to use Keynote. But if you need a copy of it in a pinch, you can always download it from the iCould web site as a .ppt file.

----------

This is an important point. The two are not mutually exclusive. I am a happy Dropbox user and if they had a cheaper 50GB plan I'd probably ante up.

iCloud is great when you need to sync information that doesn't come in document form for instance when I save a favorite in StockTouch I don't actually create a file that needs to be saved in a folder. iCloud is better for these types of applications.
Dropbox also does pretty well for these type of syncing needs. A lot of applications use it to sync non-file-based information. In fact, most developers actually prefer it to using iCloud simply because the Dropbox API is noticeably more robust, stable and bug-free than the iCloud API (thought the expectation is that it iClould will become more reliable as time marches on).
 
Yeah but I meant a folder containing all my files for a project (like on my Mac). If I'm working on a song, I have song lyrics in a Pages document, a MP3 for the audio, and a Garageband file. I want them in a folder together because they are for the same song but you can't do that in iOS.

Ah yes that much is true iOS is seriously lacking in the file management:eek:
 
Too bad they had to remove important functionality (create an account) to do it. Again, Apple with their policy harms the user experience of other players for the sole reason of wanting 30% payment processing fees.
 
Too bad they had to remove important functionality (create an account) to do it. Again, Apple with their policy harms the user experience of other players for the sole reason of wanting 30% payment processing fees.

Account creation will be allowed again, but only for free services.

The problem with the last version of the API is it allowed for Dropbox to sell their upgrade services at the same time they created a free account, bypassing Apple's IAP mechanism and the obligatory revenue sharing.

Creating a free account is not the problem.

Upselling within the account creation process without an IAP is the sole issue.

Dropping account creation altogether was the quickest way to get the API back on the approved list so apps don't get rejected if they integrate with Dropbox. The next step is to develop a more full featured API that doesn't violate the developer agreement.
 
Think the point was that folders within a file system are arcane, and they are - as is user access to the file system. If you want to see how to do it properly nowadays and the direction I would bet heavily that Apple are going in then have a look at Aperture or iPhoto.

You import the photo's and then the app takes over. You don't know where the photo is stored, what it's file name is, what folder structure is used on the file system and so on. None of that matters as the photo's are tagged with meta data and organised within logical folders and events etc within the app.

Kind of like throwing everything in to one dresser drawer but ensuring everything is labelled correctly, so when you want all your clothes they will all magically appear just by you opening the drawer and saying clothes.

Except iCloud and the Apple apps (both on iOS and Mac) aren't there yet, though I reckon they will be with the next major releases.

This works well if you work in an application-centric way. And there are times where doing so makes perfect sense, sure, and managing photos is a fair example of that.

But sometimes people work in a project-centric way: Right now I'm managing a project at work, and the way the files for that have been organised is that regardless of author, or application that generated them, they've all been placed in a top level folder that corresponds to the name of the project, with subfolders inside it to sort by project phase.

None of the people working on this project have a requirement to say "I need to see all the photoshop files I ever made, and sort through them by date or metadata to start finding the ones I made for the project" or even just "all the photoshop files made for this project".

But we do have a requirement to say "I need to see all the documents generated in the planning and proposal phases". Or "I'm going to the project 'release' meeting with the customers, let me pull up all the manuals we've made for them ready for distribution, as well as the presentation I've been making for the announcement meeting."

Now I'm not trying to stop anyone from working in an 'application-centric' manner if they prefer, but an application that only works that way is stopping me working the way I want to work.

In other words, I can't work the way I want to with icloud. I can with dropbox.
 
Upselling within the account creation process without an IAP is the sole issue.

How is that even an issue ? It's an issue of greed. Dropbox has a payment processor that doesn't charge 30%, why should they be forced to use Apple ? Especially since this isn't even their application! It's on their website.

It's not even "In-App". It's "In Webview, on our site".

So basically, you're saying if I create an app with a webview that allows someone to surf to Amazon.com and make purchases, Apple should get 30% because it's "In-App" ?

It makes no sense. And now, Dropbox are either forced to create 2 sign-up pages and in the end, the end user is harmed because he can't upgrade his account straight during account creation or whenever Dropbox presented the option.

All because Apple wants something like 10x industry standard pay.

In other words, I can't work the way I want to with icloud. I can with dropbox.

iCloud and Dropbox aren't the same kind of service. I dunno why people insist on comparing them.
 
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How is that even an issue ? It's an issue of greed. Dropbox has a payment processor that doesn't charge 30%, why should they be forced to use Apple ? Especially since this isn't even their application! It's on their website.

It's not even "In-App". It's "In Webview, on our site".

So basically, you're saying if I create an app with a webview that allows someone to surf to Amazon.com and make purchases, Apple should get 30% because it's "In-App" ?

Apple are not a payment processor, they are a retailer. You keep coming up with this argument despite Apple's service offering being nothing at all like a payment processor.

Apple have built an online media shop and an app shop out of nothing, in a way and with a level of success that no one else has managed.

Part of this is due to the simple purchasing, something which you would have replaced by an unmanageable and unusable mess. Can you imagine having to enter your card details and personal details every time you make a purchase? How would refunds work? Who would get all the bad press when something went wrong, such as a security breach?

It's not like Apple are trying to block competition either. The Dropbox app is promoted quite heavily on the app store and this will be driving sales for them, albeit with the minor inconvenience of having to go to their website to make the purchase.

The reason Apple should get the 30% is that it is their shop and so their rules, if you don't like it then don't use it - no one is forcing you too. They've done a pretty good job with the app store so far, I think I'd rather stick with their methodology for keeping it that way.
 
Apple are not a payment processor, they are a retailer.

Are we discussing In-app purchasing or not ? For In-App purchases, Apple acts as a payment processor only. It's listed right there in the documentation. Do I need to link and quote it yet again ? :rolleyes:

So please, let's stop pretending about all the 30% of app purchase prices or free app subsidies. In-App purchasing is a feature for which Apple provides payment processing. They charge 30% for the privilege and force it on every developer that wants to sell something through an app, or it seems, on a website accessed by a webview in an app.

This should be left squarely to the developer. What's next ? Gamecenter only, no more Openfeint ? iCloud or bust, no more dropbox at all ? I can't wait for Apple to yet again force yet another one of their services on 3rd parties.
 
Are we discussing In-app purchasing or not ? For In-App purchases, Apple acts as a payment processor only. It's listed right there in the documentation. Do I need to link and quote it yet again ? :rolleyes:

We've been here before, you're twisting what the documentation says and then interpreting in the way you want to. There is no mention anywhere of Apple acting as a payment processor, if they were the agreement would be totally different. If you'd ran a retail business, had a merchant account and processed bulk card payments you'd realise the differences.

Yet again you've ignored all of my other points and just repeated the same old thing. If you actually consider these other points you'll see the problem with what you are proposing and where it will lead.

You're also misinformed claiming the standard industry rate for payment processing is 3% - you can easily pay more, possibly a lot more than that. For example, if you had a merchant account a $1.00 payment by debit card would cost around $0.30 to process.

If you don't like it, no one is stopping you or anyone else from creating an entire eco-system like Apple have or jumping ship and going to Android.
 
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