New iMac In September

[paxtonandrew]

Imac G4(5)?

The FreeScale fab at the Crolles2 plant is rolling out the new e300 and e500 chips as we speak, shipping them to embedded manufacturers as promised. While the first in the line isn't necessarily all that huge a manufacturing feat (it's a modified 603e, as I recall), the e500 core is brand new and represents a part of the future generation they're aiming at. The ones we should be drooling over, though, are the e600 and e700 cores. The first is a G4e core that's ramped up and modified - on die memory control, 400mhz bus, larger L2, dual-core and single-core implementation - with full instruction set compatibility with the older chip. I've even seen some statements that it might be pin-compatible with the current sockets, even though it will require some motherboard reconfiguration to cut out the external memory controller and shorten the pipe to main memory.

Oh, and it's supposed to run 13 watts typical for single core at 2.0ghz, and a mere 22 watts typical for dual-core. Assuming that there's even a fractional increase in performance over normal SMP from the lack of latency (both on-die memory control and the dual-core bridging rather than dual-processor), we might see the equivalent of a 3.0-3.5ghz processor in the PowerBooks without nearly the issues that a single G5 would have. This would also help the iMacs, for similar reasons.

Sweet;

So, with these processors, we are looking at a cooler chip, with more power. SWEET. The only problem with this is that the G5 chip won't have the speed margin that Apple would like, especially with a 3.5Ghz G4 racing to catch up. Hopefully Apple chooses to have 2 Chip manufacturers onboard, not only one. "Apple's New Computer, The PowerMac G4+, with Freescale's New e700 chip, 3.5ghz(yay, we are almost faster than intel! ) and with ONLY 2 fans, not the staggering 9 in the G5!"

*Crosses Fingers*

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I used to only like Macs, but a copy OS called XP Made me Take the "NeXt StEp"

 

[thatwendigo]

Sweet;

So, with these processors, we are looking at a cooler chip, with more power. SWEET. The only problem with this is that the G5 chip won't have the speed margin that Apple would like, especially with a 3.5Ghz G4 racing to catch up. Hopefully Apple chooses to have 2 Chip manufacturers onboard, not only one. "Apple's New Computer, The PowerMac G4+, with Freescale's New e700 chip, 3.5ghz(yay, we are almost faster than intel! ) and with ONLY 2 fans, not the staggering 9 in the G5!"

Whoa there, paxton.

While the e600 will likely be a leap over the current G4 not only in scaled clock, but quite possibly in clock-to-clock performance ratios, it's not at all guaranteed that the numbers will smoke the G5. There are some differences in architecture that would make each processor better than the other in a given set of circumstances. The e600 will likely make a better mobile and small form-factor chip because of its lower overall power requirements, but its integer performance will probably be less than that of the G5.

The place to be looking now is at the FreeScale e700 and the IBM 970-successor (975, 980, whatever...). From what I've come across, the e700 is a 32/64-bit processor with on-die DDR/DDR2 control, a new core (no taking from older tech), a much higher bus, and oddest of all, two double-precision 129-bit vector units. That would aim it right at the scientific and engineering market, which has never really been the strong suit for the G4. Meanwhile, the 970-successor is supposedly going to based on Power5 (a new core), and share most of the same featurse as the e700, but with more of an emphasis on multi-processor systems. That means they're likely to play better in superscalar applications like the eight-and-up-way systems that IBM likes to build.

It's an interesting time for the PowerPC, especially with AMD, Toshiba, and Sony all buying licenses to produce their own chips to the technical specification. It also speaks well of the line that AMD bought the rights to a lower end 400-series chip from IBM.

 

[ddtlm]

thatwendigo:

The first is a G4e core that's ramped up and modified - on die memory control, 400mhz bus, larger L2, dual-core and single-core implementation - with full instruction set compatibility with the older chip. I've even seen some statements that it might be pin-compatible with the current sockets, even though it will require some motherboard reconfiguration to cut out the external memory controller and shorten the pipe to main memory.

Pal, you've got some contradictory ideas there.

If there are on-die memory controllers then the motherboard will be different, and not just "some motherboard reconfiguration". The system controller will be gone, there will be no FSB, the RAM will connect to the CPU. Pin compatibility is irrelevant and pointless since the FSB will be relegated to history. Instead of pins supporting the FSB there would have to be pins supporting the RAM bus(ses) and pins supporting some inter-chip bus(ses) like HT.

If there are on-die memory controllers all that stuff about pin-compatibility and faster FSB's is misinformation. Look at an A64 system some day, that's what a mombo/processor with on-die memory controllers looks like.

 

[ddtlm]

thatwendigo:

The e600 will likely make a better mobile and small form-factor chip because of its lower overall power requirements, but its integer performance will probably be less than that of the G5.

An interesting claim to make. If anything I would expect the e600's strong point vs the G5 to be integer, because of the shorter pipe and greater number of integer units. I would expect floating point performance of the G5 to be unreachable, however, since the G4 has only one scalar unit.

It also speaks well of the line that AMD bought the rights to a lower end 400-series chip from IBM.

Unfortunately their goal is almost certainly a very low-power device.

 

[Sun Baked]

For some reason, based on the old iMac, I'd almost expect this...

But I almost hope it adds in a PCI slot, GPU slot, or a 2nd HD connection.

 

[JGowan]

A little trip to CompUSA today...

I went in to my area CompUSA today to see what 4th of July goodies I could find (got three of the 30PK Memorex CD-Rs for $9.88!). While I was there, I popped over to the Apple Section and saw Floor Models and Stock for the 15", 17" and 20" iMacs. Then I stopped a white-shirted Assistant and we got to talking MAC (turns out he has the original 15" iMac himself) and he confirmed that new iMacs were coming in September and that he would definitely would be running out of stock of iMacs in the next few weeks.

He told me that his plan was to try to either to steer a customer coming in for an iMac to either get a PowerMac tower or to just wait the few weeks for the new iMacs. He said he definitely would not try to push them over to the PC side just to get the sale. He said that most of the sales force "gets" that the Mac is worth the extra it sometimes seems they cost. Plus, he also commented that most people who are coming specifically to get an Apple computer are "Apple People" and wouldn't get a PC unless they were being given away. I asked about customers waiting and he said that it is an everyday thing for sales staff to give a customer an approximate time for delivery and then take the person's phone number down so they can be called when the product comes in.

He also said it was common to call other area CompUSAs to find out if they are INSTOCK of a particular product and then have it either (a) held for the customer or (b) brought over. Talk about customer service!

Lastly, when all else fails, he said that the next step was to contact Apple Plano or Apple Knox Street (DALLAS) and see what they have in stock.

I felt very comforted hearing that CompUSA could be so pro-Apple and accomodating and also that people were willing to wait when it came to what they were going to buy if it came down to it.

 

[thatwendigo]

If there are on-die memory controllers then the motherboard will be different, and not just "some motherboard reconfiguration".

I am intentionally vague when I talk about this, because not everyone will understand every technical term that's thrown around. I understand everything you said to me in reply, and believe me, I know that the change in an on-die controller would be far more drastic than just a simple fiddling with existing boards.

The system controller will be gone, there will be no FSB, the RAM will connect to the CPU.

Wrong.

Even the sparkling jewel of the on-die advocate's eye - the Opteron - still has a Northbridge on at least one chipset. The brand new Via K8T800 chipset uses a link to the AGP slot and the external controller, which is the VT8237 Southbridge. The Southbridge in a G5 system is obviously the K2 chip, which talks to the U3 system controller. In the newer G5s, the PCI-X bridge is layered between the Northbridge and Southbridge, which makes things a little less clear but still understandable.

You are correct that the AMD 939/940 socket does directly connect to the RAM, but that's the main difference.

If there are on-die memory controllers all that stuff about pin-compatibility and faster FSB's is misinformation. Look at an A64 system some day, that's what a mombo/processor with on-die memory controllers looks like.

I never said FSB for exactly that reason, actually. A chip with an on-die controller will still need bridging to the outside world, but it won't be what's traditionally been called the front-side bus. Instead of HyperTransport, look for the FreeScale RapidIO implementation to be the underpinning of the newer chips.

 

[MacinDoc]

That would be so cool. I'd finally have a use for that extended 80 column card I have lying around.

Hey! No fair! I never got one of those when I had my trusty old Apple II Plus!

Back on topic, does this mean we're back to the pizza box speculation?

 

[~Shard~]

Back on topic, does this mean we're back to the pizza box speculation?

Yah, sure, why the hell not - let's go nuts and make the iMac a STB or make it 1U rack mountable or something... (Kay, it's definitely time for bed now...)

 

[JGowan]

SHUT UP ABOUT THE SO-CALLED "HEADLESS MAC"!!

:: Begin juvenile rant ::

I am so sick of so many going on and on about this "headless mac"! You've got your headless mac, it's called the PowerMac G4 & G5! Go get it for the low price of $1,299 (G4) or $1,999 (G5) and attached whatever monitor you want.

1.25GHz PowerPC G4
1MB L3 cache
256MB DDR333 SDRAM
80GB Ultra ATA drive
Combo Drive
ATI Radeon 9000 Pro
Mac OS 9 boot supported

This will not happen with the iMac! Apple wants this computer to be awesome from start to finish. They wil NOT produce a great little computer and then let just any tacky-@$$ monitor screw it up. They did this once,... it was called the CUBE and it did not work.

If it's HEADLESS, it's no longer an iMac. The iMac is an ALL-IN-ONE Computer. What is it about this concept that is so stupifying to so many of you Icabod-Crane-wanting people?!?

If you want a computer that will be EXPANDABLE and be CHEAP and yes, be HEADLESS, get a mirror-door G4 as Apple is still selling them -- but for God's sake, PLEASE, SHUT the H-E-Double Hockey Stick up about the iMac Headless Mac! It ain't going to happen!

:: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ::

I feel better now.

 

[DMann]

iMacs

Ok this is my take on why apple have done this. Apple obviously only wanted iMac inventories to run out in say two or three weeks, but have already, and it would cost too much to start producing new iMac G4's. So what they did is just told people look just wait and you will get the new iMacs. But the reason why they haven't officially released them, is because stuff like releasing a BIG new product takes alot of time, web pages, advertising, building the computer etc. So they just resorted to giving a simple note on the website.

Just my 2 euro cents

I agree that it would not be cost effective to ramp up
another supply of G4 iMacs when G5s are on the horizon.
I still find it puzzling that Steve didn't at least announce
the new iMac G5s at WWDC. Perhaps Apples new plan to
release hardware intermittently throughout the year instead
of at major expos was behind this, and Apple really was planning
on releasing the new iMacs soon after WWDC, before something
delayed that from happening. It would be great to see them sooner
rather than later, at least by end of August............ circa iMac's
B-Day and Paris Expo....

 

[JGowan]

... I'm sure that if you ASKED Apple employees about the iMac now, they'd tell you about the upcoming iMacs...

whoa, JG, for a regular--and i've seen some interesting insights in some of your other posts (the dual G4 iMac speculation, for example) THIS comment is extremely naive. imho. - terry

Thanks, I try to be thoughtful before just yammering. But when I said "they'd tell you about the upcoming iMacs", what I meant was:

1) If you didn't ask about the "all-new iMac lineup" coming in September, they would probably just keep their mouths shut and sell you a Sunflower iMac. They've got to move whatever inventory they can. Sure, later in September, they'll probably take back some iMacs bought in late August with an "I'm sorry", but for the most part, they will most likely maintain their normal SILENT ATTITUDE about product not yet introduced publicly.

2) I DIDN'T mean they would tell you specifics about the "all-new iMac". The average Apple employee just doesn't know. Not even the managers. And they won't speculate either. I've tried to get PLANO and KNOX employees to talk about stuff not fully finalized and they just give a polite NO COMMENT.

3) Also, what I meant was that, being that Apple has OFFICIALLY stated new iMacs in September, Apple employees have an obligation to confirm this info IF YOU ASK. Otherwise, I'm betting they will keep mum, until their current iMac stock is depleted.

Hope this clears things up and you will got back to find my stuff kind of interesting.

 

[oingoboingo]

Actually, as an "old mac user" that's been on the platform since 1986, I think that would be terrible and completely inimical to the direction that Steve's taken the company thus far. Commoditization of the architecture and cases kills half the mystique of the brand, and you can argue all you like about what pushes sales, but half of what makes people walk in the front of an Apple store is going to be the sleek, well-designed machines that are on display.

I think the modified LCIII-style casing that was suggested in the parent post would fit your description perfectly. Who else makes a mass-market approximately 2" thick mini pizzabox in the style of the LC, LCII and LCIII? Hell, I loved that case design so much I picked up an LCII about a year ago to use as a PC case-mod project (although I got busy at university, so that project is on the back-burner). Sleek, pared-down, simple and elegant...nothing much more on the front of the case than a slot for the removable storage and the Apple logo. It's kind of Cube-like in its elegant minimalness. Instead of using beige/platinum plastic, use brushed PowerBook/PowerMac aluminium or white iBook/eMac/iMac plastic...Steve gets to choose. Stick a G4-based motherboard in there. Hell, use the iBook motherboard to save on research and development costs. We know it fits in a tight space (and you have first hand knowledge of that from the inside). Then you've got a 1GHz or 1.2GHz G4 with a Radeon 9200 GPU, USB2, FireWire, ATA controller, sound and video out, plus an Airport Extreme slot, and you know it runs cool and quiet in a small space.

Take the iBook, pull out the screen, casing, custom keyboard, trackpad, battery, 2.5" hard drive and compact slot-loading optical drive. Nahh..keep the slot loader. Replace the 2.5" drive with a cheaper 3.5" drive, put the slot-loader in the front, bundle with a standard Apple USB keyboard and mouse, stir, heat and serve. It'd have to be hundreds of dollars cheaper than an iBook because it lacks an expensive LCD panel, notebook chassis/casing, battery and a 2.5" notebook hard drive. It'd be cheaper than the eMac because it doesn't come with a screen, and being smaller, uses less raw materials to construct. It'd work with your favourite external monitor. You could pop open the lid easily to upgrade the hard drive, or roll it on it's back and pop a slot off to upgrade the RAM or AirPort card. It wouldn't be nasty. It wouldn't be dodgy. It would preserve the 'Apple experience'. Hell, it's just an already-cheap iBook (one of Apple's most popular models) without the expensive notebook bits! And it would be in a funky, slim little case. I'm excited. I'm hard as a rock!

Steve, get down in front of me now and fellate!

The people who whine about how Apple is overpriced are the ones who I sincerely doubt would buy anyways. It's the same phenomenon as all the supposed "buyers" for PowerMacs who went silent right after the G5 was introduced.

I still complain and whine that Macs cost too much...and I went out and ordered a 1.6GHz G5 about 3 weeks after WWDC annoucement last year. It is possible to complain about price, yet buy, at the same time. I wanted a G5. It was worth the cost. But I wanted it to be cheaper. And I think it could have been.

 

[ChrisH3677]

When will we get the "big year in hardware"

Steve promised 2004 as a big year in hardware... so far it's been a fizzer (by comparison to the expectation he created).

So maybe the iMac will turn it 'round. Maybe by this time next year our jaws will still hit the ground when we talk iMacs... maybe... maybe...

maybe not that big! But i reckon it will be purty speshurl.

 

[daveg5]

Sweet;

So, with these processors, we are looking at a cooler chip, with more power. SWEET. The only problem with this is that the G5 chip won't have the speed margin that Apple would like, especially with a 3.5Ghz G4 racing to catch up. Hopefully Apple chooses to have 2 Chip manufacturers onboard, not only one. "Apple's New Computer, The PowerMac G4+, with Freescale's New e700 chip, 3.5ghz(yay, we are almost faster than intel! ) and with ONLY 2 fans, not the staggering 9 in the G5!"

*Crosses Fingers*

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I used to only like Macs, but a copy OS called XP Made me Take the "NeXt StEp"

the chip sounds sweet for a laptop 2GHZ 400MHZ bus, cool low power. probably as fast as a G5 at the same speed for most things, hopefully, the emac, ibook can get this if everything else goes G5

 

[neon]

:: Begin juvenile rant ::

I am so sick of so many going on and on about this "headless mac"! You've got your headless mac, it's called the PowerMac G4 & G5! Go get it for the low price of $1,299 (G4) or $1,999 (G5) and attached whatever monitor you want.

<snip>

If you want a computer that will be EXPANDABLE and be CHEAP and yes, be HEADLESS, get a mirror-door G4 as Apple is still selling them -- but for God's sake, PLEASE, SHUT the H-E-Double Hockey Stick up about the iMac Headless Mac! It ain't going to happen!

:: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ::

I feel better now.

i just spent the best part of this morning reading all of this thread (ok, skim-reading - it's the quietest day ever here at work) - and this post is the one i had the most agreement with. i just want a new imac and have been reluctant to purchase because i use a 17-inch at work - well i'd rather not go home to the exact same machine i use at work - so i've been spending my hard earned cash instead, and this announcement gives me a reason (and time - so i'm happy) to save! but not for a headless imac

can't wait to find out more about what they will be like though

 

[Sped]

Umm is this the thread about the iMac?

Anytime a thread has over 500 posts, the subject eventually wanders off to Apple marketshare, x86 Mac OS, headless iMacs, etc. It's actually pretty funny to me.

 

[Dom]

Current iMacs have no fans so assuming this new iMac will also have no fans then that could mean a G5 that runs cool enough for a laptop, that is if they use a G5 in it.

Nonesense. My FP iMac has a fan at the top of the dome, just under the perforations. A really nice way to suck in loads and loads of dust.

 

[Sped]

...for God's sake, PLEASE, SHUT the H-E-Double Hockey Stick up about the iMac Headless Mac! It ain't going to happen!

Brother JGowan, to this I say AMEN and AMEN!

 

[Dom]

Objectivity

I really don't think there's much subtext to Apple's posting on the iMac page. Given that the g4 iMac has been on the market for several years, I'm sure Apple knew how much g4 iMac product they would need until the new iMac was ready, so it quite simply looks as though the new line wasn't ready when they expected it.

And if there was a persistent problem with a component of the new iMac prototype, they wouldn't have put all their eggs in one basket by ceasing production of the old machine, and would probably have continued production of the old iMac for a few weeks/months to build up extra stock. So it's likely that the problem that Apple is facing with their new product took them very much by surprise. It also seems likely that the new product was in full production when they discovered this problem. At the very least, the factory had been re-tooled.

The problem itself could be anything from chip heat/fabrication problem to an unpaid electricity bill by the factory involved. Many people complained that the plastics used in the g4 Cube started cracking after a while. There were problems with the coating on the original titanium powerbooks. It could quite easily be such a problem with the new iMac. The possibilities are numerous, so there's little point in speculating.

However, all this does point to one thing. If the new iMac is to be little more than a speedbumped g4, it seems unlikely that they would have what appears to be such a large problem with it. And indeed, it would be relatively easy to revert to production of the old line for a while.

So it does seem as though the new iMac will be substantially revised. Though I find it unlikely that it will be a headless machine, or a detachable tablet device, or a wireless monitor, as one of the major selling points of every iMac ever made is the simplicity of it all. A machine you can take out of the box, plug in, and use. I don't see any marketing logic at all in replacing a beautifully simple product with something more complicated for little additional benefit to the average consumer. What most people seem to want on here isn't an easy to buy, easy to use domestic machine, but a g5 desktop that they can afford. Unfortunately we are hardly representitive of the domestic market as a whole.

So in conclusion, I think those of us who are a little more realistic about the new iMac will be pleasantly surprised. But from what I've read on here, a lot of you are going to be very disappointed.

 

[MacFan25]

The problem itself could be anything from chip heat/fabrication problem to an unpaid electricity bill by the factory involved. Many people complained that the plastics used in the g4 Cube started cracking after a while. There were problems with the coating on the original titanium powerbooks. It could quite easily be such a problem with the new iMac. The possibilities are numerous, so there's little point in speculating.

You are correct that the problem could be a number of things, even just a manufacturing problem. But most of the speculation is that they Apple is going with the G5 in the iMacs and that they are having trouble cooling the new chip. Steve Jobs said in January at MWSF that they had trouble cooling the G5 when they put it in the Xserve, which is why I believe they have not put the G5 in the Powerbooks, and at this point it hasn't been put in the iMacs. This however is just speculation...and one could also speculate that the reason the G5 isn't in the iMac yet is because Apple was waiting until IBM was making the G5 at 90nm. And we now know that IBM was having problems producing the G5 at 90nm.

 

[Photorun]

Hear hear!!!!

:: Begin juvenile rant ::

I am so sick of so many going on and on about this "headless mac"! You've got your headless mac, it's called the PowerMac G4 & G5! Go get it for the low price of $1,299 (G4) or $1,999 (G5) and attached whatever monitor you want.

Amen brother!!! Sing it loud and proud! You've said what I'm sure a few of us wanted to say on this thread.

 

[the future]

Anytime a thread has over 500 posts, the subject eventually wanders off to Apple marketshare, x86 Mac OS, headless iMacs, etc. It's actually pretty funny to me.

So true, so true... and don't forget the classic, ever-amusing post-500-posts comparisons of Apple vs. PC hardware prices (including the inevitable apples/oranges phrase).

 

[maddav]

So true, so true... and don't forget the classic, ever-amusing post-500-posts comparisons of Apple vs. PC hardware prices (including the inevitable apples/oranges phrase).

Well as a newbie I was just curious as to where the thread had gone, and why, but now i know!

Soon we'll be talking about our favourite contemporary jazz artists

 

[elliemarshall]

iMac's New Look

We all know that right now apple has two faces -the pro face which has allproducts in sleek aluminum and a home/fun face with all products in white (i.e. imac,ipod,emac,ibook). Because the current iMac is a fun home user product in the fun apple line and when we think of g5 we think of pro/serious usage, do you REALLY think that the new imac will go g5 and if so what will it look like? Because i'm not a pro user an one of the main reasons i went mac was because of their look and because my g4 iMac makes me happy everytime I look at it, what if the g5 is...well....ugly?