New iPhones Access Location Info When Settings are Disabled Due to Ultra Wideband, Toggle Coming in Future Update

[macfacts]

In what sense in this case?

Apple complaims companies that collect user data do so to enrich those companies that collect them. Apple does the same, they collect data to make their services better.

This ultra wideband hardware is present to make apples upcoming "tags" services better. This tags services helps people find things. That means knowing the location of things like where your iPhone "saw" a tag.

 

[1144557]

If you can't see where Tim goes next with "overriding user preferences to check user location and enforce local regulations" then you haven't been paying attention.

Sorry, but I call BS here. I think this is just to cover up Apple's error.

Apple comclaims companies that collect user data do so to enrich those companies that collect them. Apple does the same, they collect data to make their services better.

This ultra wideband hardware is present to make apples upcoming "tags" services better. This tags services helps people find things. That means knowing the location of things like where your iPhone "saw" a tag.

Evidence this location data is going to Apple server's or off device contradicting Apple's statement or the security researcher, who as far as I saw has said nothing about Apple's explanation being untrue or data sent off device?

Dont all speak at once now. Exactly, none. The tinfoil hat is squeezing your brain.

 

[macfacts]

Evidence this location data is going to Apple server's or off device contradicting Apple's statement or the security researcher, who as far as I saw has said nothing about Apple's explanation being untrue or data sent off device?

Dont all speak at once now. Exactly, none. The tinfoil hat is squeezing your brain.

If all the data stays on the iPhone, how does this "tags" service work than.

 

[MallardDuck]

In the future, Apple plans to provide a dedicated toggle that will turn off the ultra wideband technology and thus disallow the background location tracking that's currently going on.

Article Link: New iPhones Access Location Info When Settings are Disabled Due to Ultra Wideband, Toggle Coming in Future Update

Moderator: You need to edit that last line: It's not location tracking it's location monitoring. There's no history being kept, it's a geo-fence for the wireless chip.

 

[I7guy]

If all the data stays on the iPhone, how does this "tags" service work than.

You’re conflating things. The article is about turning UWB on and off and. Not about the “Tags” service.

 

[macfacts]

You’re conflating things. The article is about turning UWB on and off and. Not about the “Tags” service.

This uwb hardware is for the tags services. You think it is for something else?

 

[Stevez67]

It's discovered that Android devices use location services when those services are set to disabled. iPhone users laugh and mock.

It's discovered that Apple devices use location services when those services are set to disabled. iPhone users nod and accept.

The fact that Apple releases a statement after they are caught (just like with those Siri recordings) shows their true nature. If privacy was truly a priority for Apple, this information would have been disclosed before the fact and a toggle provided when such hardware was released.

Except the icon was there all the time, intermittently, letting anyone who wanted to know that the device was using location services for some purpose. Krebs noticed and checked on it. If they were trying to hide what was going on, that icon wouldn't have been there.

 

[1144557]

If all the data stays on the iPhone, how does this "tags" service work than.

Last time I checked there was no tag service out yet. This is STRICTLY referring to UWB as it stands today, not future use, being on or off in certain countries.

Maybe that is why tags arent out still; until they get licenses to make UWB work in those countries which makes this a non-issue. This may be the way they HAD to push the OS out in current form due to regulatory issues.

 

[Rogifan]

So what exactly is the issue here? Who was getting my location without me knowing it?

 

[1144557]

So what exactly is the issue here? Who was getting my location without me knowing it?

No one if the statement is accurate that this is done on the device.

You cant even have a privacy issue if the data doesnt leave your own possession. It's a non-starter argument.

Is the usual tinfoil hat wearer "what if" "Apple sucks" "slippery slope what next then" arguments based in zero actual fact. There is absolutely zero evidence this data leaves your device; the security researcher who found this has not in any way that Ive read indicated it left the device or Apple's statement of such was untrue.

When there is evidence I reserve the right to change my opinion like a reasonable person; until then its just talk to me.

 

[adrianlondon]

Right but the VAST majority of the public has no idea what UWB is, let alone where their location setting are for the system at all.

Good for them. Then they won't ever go deep into the settings and toggle that setting off. It can default to on. The toggle can warn "turning this off will disable xxxxx".

I'd never turn it off - I've no issue with location services - but some people do like having a choice and I'm glad it's being offered.

 

[Sandrolini]

Really??? Wow what an expert. I realised this app n the first day I got my 11 pro max and wrote to Apple about it. Of course never got a reply. I mean really, are you all blind?? I have one app that gets location access all the time and the arrow shows up every now and then, with the mentioned app being turned off completely. So I wonder, do people never look at their phones’ displays. This can’t have come up only now. I got the Max at the end of September and it has been like that ever since.

 

[Dave-Z]

Sorry but still an incredibly poor example/analogy and I stand by that.

If you want to compare something done solely on device (regardless of personal feelings about a toggle) and a company BLATANTLY and openly stealing your data for advertising/metrics/etc sending it back to home base as their whole business model and reason the OS is given out for free to get more users and more data; well they are not even on the same planet of levels of abuse.

It would be like saying tapping someone on the back of the hand with 1 finger and cracking someone upside the head with a bat are both battery. Technically yes both wrong by the strict rules, but not even close to the same realm of severity.

That is if data that doesnt even leave your device could even be considered a privacy violation since it never left your possession.

Respectfully, you're missing the entire point of my argument. My argument is not the use of location services in Android versus iOS. That was, again, me being facetious.

My point is that Apple misled customers by continuing to allow location services despite the user disabling them and after such actions became public knowledge said that would update the operating system to allow properly disabling the service. What if it had not become public, would they have continued? Maybe. I'm questioning Apple's character because situations like this and the Siri recordings lead me to believe Apple only corrects their behavior when they're caught.

 

[1144557]

Respectfully, you're missing the entire point of my argument. My argument is not the use of location services in Android versus iOS. That was, again, me being facetious.

My point is that Apple misled customers by continuing to allow location services despite the user disabling them and after such actions became public knowledge said that would update the operating system to allow properly disabling the service. What if it had not become public, would they have continued? Maybe. I'm questioning Apple's character because situations like this and the Siri recordings lead me to believe Apple only corrects their behavior when they're caught.

And again, if the data never leaves your own device in your own possession, exactly what privacy violation occurred?

Once/if there is evidence that it left the device that will change the facts. But until then there cant possibly be a privacy violation if data was not transmitted off device.

This is like saying your doctor taking notes without telling you and putting them into your medical file to refer back to is a privacy violation (or HIPAA) when the doctor and you solely have access to that file. Same as the phone getting data for itself that never leaves your device or possession. And unless that medical file got handed to a 3rd party there is literally no damage done or privacy violation there.

This no different if the data doesnt leave the device, there is no legitimate privacy violation occurring. Just something for people to scoff at as usual and put on their tin foil hats that more is happening than there is.

End of story for me so Im out.

 

[Jakewilk]

It's discovered that Android devices use location services when those services are set to disabled. iPhone users laugh and mock.

It's discovered that Apple devices use location services when those services are set to disabled. iPhone users nod and accept.

The fact that Apple releases a statement after they are caught (just like with those Siri recordings) shows their true nature. If privacy was truly a priority for Apple, this information would have been disclosed before the fact and a toggle provided when such hardware was released.

There is no option to disable this location service use, so it’s at least not lying

 

[C DM]

Apple does the same, they collect data to make their services better.

Seems like the data is staying on the device in this case.

 

[stiligFox]

Lol. My Apple watch have been in airplane mode for days, but can still unlock notes on my mac, control Music on my iPhone X e.g.
Have been able to do that at least a month :S

You may have accidentally turned bluetooth and/or wifi back on. Even though the watch is in Airplane mode, you can still turn one or both back on. Airplane mode mainly guarantees that the cellular chip is deactivated. You can simply turn them off manually again and they will permanently stay off.

Also keep in mind that if you have Airplane turned *off,* on either an iPhone or Apple Watch, and *then* you turn wifi or bluetooth off, they will come back on sometime in the middle of the night (around 5am). This is so that you "don't loose access to apple features" which I think is ********, but that's how it works. But with AP mode on, wifi and bluetooth will stay off indefinitely.

 

[I7guy]

This uwb hardware is for the tags services. You think it is for something else?

This is for turning hardware off or on. Hardware off how does tags work? Hardware on how does tags work? Hardware off or on location goes nowhere was the point.

 

[Jest3r]

Doesn't 911 use location services to determine which emergency services to contact and to provide location information to emergency services? Is this a function that people would want disabled for privacy reasons?

That's done at the cellular radio level and has nothing to do with location services. Phase I used tower triangulation to determine a caller's location. It wasn't until Phase II came along that GPS data was ever sent. We were receiving Phase II data long before the first smart phone was ever on the market. 👍

 

[I7guy]

Apple complaims companies that collect user data do so to enrich those companies that collect them. Apple does the same, they collect data to make their services better.

This ultra wideband hardware is present to make apples upcoming "tags" services better. This tags services helps people find things. That means knowing the location of things like where your iPhone "saw" a tag.

Well then, Siri should be the best thing since sliced bread, but she is often criticized because of the restrictions placed on data collection. Apple never said it collected ZERO data about the individual. Every friggin company on the face of the earth that you do business with collects your data.

 

[Naraxus]

Apple as usual resorting to condescension, belittlement & blaming the user as per usual.....
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We’re paying attention, we’re just not positing speculation as fact.

No. You're just making excuses for Apple's malfeasance as is usual with you

 

[FlyingDutch]

So no conspiracy on Apple part, as usual... just a good solution.
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Playing the devil's advocate here - I think the concern is that you're under the impression that location services are turned off. And while it's mostly true, it's not entirely true. There should be some disclaimer and/or prompt the reminds you that location services will still be required for the U1 to remain on, or probably the better alternative, to just disable the U1 wideband when location services is completely turned off. With that said, I don't see the big deal either, assuming Apple's response is accurate and not hiding anything.

Nope.
if you really want to disable location services you still can switch the general toggle OFF and you are fine.

 

[konqerror]

Doesn't 911 use location services to determine which emergency services to contact and to provide location information to emergency services? Is this a function that people would want disabled for privacy reasons?

It's not allowed to be disabled, by law (FCC regulation). However, if you remember, Qualcomm had a standard on their CDMA pre-smartphones that the location icon would always show, it would be in either "E911 only" or "generally enabled". Apple I think made the first CDMA device that didn't show it.

Further, Apple and others implement a very obvious 911 override enabled notification, I recall it's a red bar on every screen, like the background location active.

Prohibited locations? What possible use could this have unless the owner was working out of a classified military base?

To expand, UWB works by literally transmitting over everybody else's signal at once, including things like weather radar, Wi-Fi, point-to-point, satellite TV, etc. The idea is that it spreads the interference out over so many people, the effect to an individual user is small. This understandably gets regulators worried; the FCC took, I think, a decade to finally approve UWB in the US. Other countries haven't gotten to that state yet.

 

[FlyingDutch]

Sorry, but I call BS here. I think this is just to cover up Apple's error.

And you surely have a better explanation, right ?
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Hmmm so they say now they are caught that they will provide a toggle for turning it off for one use

But not what other uses of functions it may or may not have

it seems to me that this embedded tracking can easily be used to stop delivery of content or apps that VPN would otherwise allow to be delivered

Typical drip feed of disclosure after the event by Apple

They’ve been caught doing NOTHING.

 

[coolfactor]

Hmm. Sorry, I had to read the title header 3 times to understand it.... and it still doesn’t make sense.

Only the new iPhones support Ultra-Wideband, so that's why this discovery only applies to them. Read it again. But you're right... what an awkward headline!