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Used, Baby, Used!

I am sick and tired of giving the Record companies $15, 16, or $17 bucks for a new CD -- especially when it turns out that the only song worth a d@mn is the one that's been on the radio.

Since I got my ipod, it's been USED music all the way: amazon, ebay, Wherehouse music, etc. Normally, I can a find a decent enough copy for about $6-8 (including shipping) ... maybe I can't buy the very NEWEST music this way, but at 37 years of age, all the music I really want to hear has been out for some time anyway. Just one good rip at 192 is all I care about anyway.

Even the local library is a fantastic source for music and audio books -- free. I know I'm opening a can of worms here so flame-on. My local library has 7 different branches all within about 15 miles of each other so some Saturdays, I'll just hit all of them and come back with bags and bags of stuff -- and 3 weeks to rip 'em.

But here's the twist: about 2 months ago, I raided my own CD collection for about 50 titles and took them down and gave them to the closest branch. Giving back felt pretty good.
 
IRC

For those of you asking about how to use IRC:

http://www.ircle.com/

This is one of many IRC client for Macs. It is free, allows you to connect to IRC just like any other client. I strongly urge people who have never used it to try. You will thank me after you learn to use it well. Its kinda frustrating to learn for some but its well worth your effort. And in no time you'll be downloading full albums ripped at 192kbps all packed into one zip file. Or download individual songs if thats your thing. And did i mention all this is free? $ .99 for one mp3 is ridiculous in my opinion. Unless that money goes directly to the artist, which is highly doubtful. Damn record companies. The ONLY way a pay-for-mp3s site to work is if its very cheap (as in < 50cents per mp3) and the selection is very very large. But this would be impossible in my opinion. You will understand why after you see the magnitude of mp3 trading that goes on on IRC. Good Luck. ;)
 
I use to be one of those that argued that the artist should get more $$$ but after really looking at what the music industry does, it really seems fair the way it is.

A lot of you are very confused about the music industry. I dont necessarily agree with it either but it is a business and it gives artist more opportunities than they would ever have on their own.

There are many elements of the music industry. First theres recording and production of music. Equipment, production rooms, studios, ect. Next there’s manufacturing of CDs and Distribution of CDs to music stores. Finally, the music company will market and promote the artist in everything from TV and Movies to radio, magazine and posters. Music companies will also secure concert venues, clubs, TV appearances, and other live performances.

The Music companies are paying for all of this up front!! The majority of artist would never be able to put together such an operation for themselves on such a large scale.

Music is an expensive business. We are at a very interesting time in music history. For the first time music companies are spending millions on producing and promoting artist and consumers are eating all of that up and then pirating the music.

So its sort of like the music industry paying millions to entertain us and sell us music and not getting any money in return because we are down loading it for free.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the next few years when music companies are no longer getting the same revenue from CD sales.
 
Here is a break down of where the money goes on the sale of a CD
Manufacturing 10%
Marketing 30%
Distribution 40%
The remaining 20% is split between the music company and the artist, depending on how popular the artist is.

As you can see if music companies where able to sell music online they would be eliminating 50% (manufacturing 10% & Distribution 40%) of the cost of selling music.

The only new cost would be that of storage and servers to provide the music online, but this is more of a fixed cost. Once the fix cost is paid for then all sales after that would be profit for both the label and the artist. This may bring about a situation where artist are payed more.

This is all given that people actually use the pay per track service, which I think will work because its easy and guaranteed.

No more incomplete, low quality songs, or tracks of nothing but loops, or slow down loads, all of which is associated with P2P networks, what a pain in the ass.


just my two cents:)
 
Re: A great idea, but there are some losers

Originally posted by ncbill
As others have noted, it's doubtful that you'd ever want to hear more than 3 songs on one album produced today.

So total sales would fall dramatically ($3-$5 spent on individual songs instead of $12-$18 on an album)

Hmmm. Actually, history shows that when consumers in a free, luxury-based economy are given the ability to buy just what they want without the artificial barnacles, and likewise when they are given the ability to more reliably research their purchases (ie, know which songs/albums are good before you buy them), overall consumption goes up, not down.

Yeah, I won't be buying tracks 5-12 from CD1, but CDs 2, 3, and 4 which I would have completely passed up before will now get $1-2 in per-song purchases.

Again, historically speaking, when the consumer is freed from artificial restrictions overall consumption goes up, not down.

The only cases where this is not true are when adding the ability to purchase by item instead of by package added too much complexity to the overall process. So, again, simplicity is a primary goal with the system. Personally, I don't think that adding a per-song download mechanism will increase the market complexity by any measurable amount, and so this is not a real hazard.

Now, that having been said, this is still a bad idea for the traditional record company executive. The recording industry is built on exclusivity (you'll probably not get a platinum album out if you're signed with Jim Bob's Records instead of A&M) and consumer ignorance ("hook" listeners with the most infectious track, and have them buy the whole CD for that one song ... invest no effort or resources in making the rest of the album as appealing as the single track ...) On the other hand, building an industry on exclusivity and ignorance is not a good long-term business plan, and said executives should just be happy they were able to hold the scam for as long as they did.
 
Originally posted by ariza910
I use to be one of those that argued that the artist should get more $$$ but after really looking at what the music industry does, it really seems fair the way it is.

A lot of you are very confused about the music industry. I dont necessarily agree with it either but it is a business and it gives artist more opportunities than they would ever have on their own.

There are many elements of the music industry. First theres recording and production of music. Equipment, production rooms, studios, ect. Next there?s manufacturing of CDs and Distribution of CDs to music stores. Finally, the music company will market and promote the artist in everything from TV and Movies to radio, magazine and posters. Music companies will also secure concert venues, clubs, TV appearances, and other live performances.

The Music companies are paying for all of this up front!! The majority of artist would never be able to put together such an operation for themselves on such a large scale.

The record company is not paying this up-front. They are giving the artist a high-risk loan to pay for these costs. If the artist ever (ever, meaning on any future albums) makes a "profit" on their music, that profit is garnisheed and put towards paying off the artist's "debt" to his record label.

But, yes, many such loans do not get repaid, and the record companies are taking a risk in granting them. However, enough do get repaid that the bigger record companies make a killing on their profits.

Also, note that the record company both provides the funding for this and dictates the prices of such. If the record company owns a studio that the artist is to use, the record company charges a "rent" on that studio to the artist for the time the artist in in there, which "rent" is a large profit-center for the company. If a record company has production staff on salary which the artist uses, that staff is hired by the artist as consultants, whose fees end up being much more than their salaries, and which, again, is a large profit-center for the company financials.

I mean, I'm a software developer. The recording artist's plight is somewhat akin to all software companies paying by commission (1/2% of all software sales in the first five years), which commission is countered by charges of $.50 per printed page, $2 per hour of computer use, $10 per day or partial day of office use and $50 per hour per other employee I consult with while developing said software. But, hey, at least the company will give me a "loan" for my office fees that I only have to pay back if I ever get a check from them.

No other industry would live with this. The recording industry thrives on the dreams of starry-eyed youth and the naivety that they believe they (or at least their Uncle Slomo the accountant) can distinguish the overall worthiness of a contract. The "standard" contract in the industry is a wholesale raping of the artist, but artists sign it because every "expert" they ask will say, "Yup, that's the standard contract all right!". It's not illegal, but it is certainly reprehensible.


Music is an expensive business. We are at a very interesting time in music history. For the first time music companies are spending millions on producing and promoting artist and consumers are eating all of that up and then pirating the music.

Music is a very cheap business. All you need is a talented artist and maybe a musical instrument, and you've got music. What is expensive is the fact that the industry has accrued so very many layers of bureaucracy and marketing that all need to be fed profits. The industry is expensive, which expense is both self-created and self-sustaining.


So its sort of like the music industry paying millions to entertain us and sell us music and not getting any money in return because we are down loading it for free.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the next few years when music companies are no longer getting the same revenue from CD sales.

The industry's profits are down 7.5% in the past year, according to their own numbers. In that same time period, their overall output is down 20-25%, according to externally verifiable numbers (IMHO, if you exclude the pop crap and just talk about "good" music, their overall output has declined much more than just 20% in the past year, but everyone has different tastes so I'll leave it at that). I don't know about your job situation, but I can be damned sure that if my output was down 20% for no justifiable reason, I might soon expect to lose a bit of pay, and if my company started releasing 20% fewer features in all our software for a year that in about six months the entire office would be out on the street.

So, no, I'm not shedding any tears for the record industry. They had a great run on this scam, and lived large for a good long time. But all free rides must eventually end.
 
Yes all you need to make music is an artist and maybe an instrument. But who is going to want to listen to a record made in someone’s garage or crappy studio with no production.

The fact is that artist that sign the contract are NOT trying to make music purely for the artistic value, they are trying to get MONEY and FAME out of it. If artist made music for the pure artistry then they wouldnt care about making tons of money.

The music industry is providing much more than music, they create entertainment. Much like a movie artist is just one part of a movie, a musician is just part of the whole entertainment the music industry provides.

The music industry pushes artist into the public eye. Its not just music thats being sold its videos, live performances, TV interviews, merchandise not to mention that bigger than life experience.

Without the music industry we wouldn’t have any superstars, no Elvis on Johnny Carson, No Beatle invasion, none of that. How sad.

Music without the Music industry would be like public access television. The music industry adds all of the elements that truly makes most forms of music exciting.

Artist cant do it all on their own, without the large music companies all we would have is a mess of random labels trying to hustle you into buying some low quality record from the artist they are ripping off.

Oh to stay on topic, i cant wait for a pay per track apple service, it will be awsome even if its only MP3 quality.
 
Originally posted by ariza910
Yes all you need to make music is an artist and maybe an instrument. But who is going to want to listen to a record made in someone?s garage or crappy studio with no production.
And now, we have the official trolling-line from the RIAA. I have neither the time nor energy right now to rebut ariza910's comments at length: rest assured, however, I'll be back to do so, and soon.

In the meantime, ask yourself: if the RIAA wanted to sleaze their way past the charges levelled against them - and wanted to do so in an on-line forum such as this one - how would they approach the task?

Think about that as your read ariza910's remarks....
 
I have nothing to do with the RIAA or the music industry for that matter.

My comments are based on observations I have made about the music industry as well as what I have heard people say about it.

I am sick of people saying that CDs are expensive when they don’t even take the time to research why thy are so expensive.

The cost of a CD is based on what it cost to produce, market and sell people this Music.

As Americans we don’t want just the music we want the whole superstar package, people follow what’s popular not necessarily what’s good music. I despise the way the music industry is able to manipulate peoples taste in music through marketing, I wont even start with the effect of MTV.

For a long time I argued on the side of artist and complained about CD prices. I believed that the artist should get a larger % of the cost of the CD.

But the more I researched it the more I realized that the artist are out there for the MONEY and the FAME not for the sake of making music. So if they want the money and the fame they are going to have to sign that contract. That contract will give them the studio access, the quality production, marketing, Videos, TV spots, live performances ect ect. All of that cost money, all of that is paid for by the music companies, all of that is what you pay for in the cost of a CD.

Do the research, find the FACTS, and remember to always keep an open mind, don’t take my word for it or accuses me of being part of the RIAA, take what I have said and look it up. I am only trying to open peoples minds on the issue. If I am proven wrong on any of what I have said, and its based on truth I will change my mind, for now this is the way I believe. Please try to prove me wrong. But do it with real facts not with personal insults.
:)
 
Fat cats are peeing their pants

The fat cat record execs are soiling their pants over this whole digital music revolution--I *love* it! $1 a song is great...I would pay that to legitimately own a song I enjoy for life, and I think I'm not alone. Let 95% of it go directly to the artist, with maybe 5% to the distribution channel (website). I think theres going to be a LOT of money made in the music industry in the next decades, and the fat cat execs are going to see less and less of it, until they're cut out completely and have to compete with eachother for jobs at McDonalds. Hopefully the artists will be seeing more and more of the money. Let the artists hire a producer of their choice and negotiate a fee/percentage/whatever directly. Last of all, let me please have my 40GB iPod soon! Just my $.02.
 
d46799, don't forget ZX Spectrum, 48 KB rule, LOL

You have it spot on - give me a song for a dollar and let me have my 40gb i-pod soon !!! If then the thing could be built like the proverbial you-know-what, then I would have a perfect means to carry around my favorite songs for almost ever - yeah yeah - of course I would rush out and buy the 80gb i-pod too and the 160gb i-pod which doubles up as a telephone, and the 320 gb i-pod which is a tv, a phaser, a medical scanner, an organizer and gaming console and whatever else we can come up with :)

More to the point I truly would want this service to become reality.
 
I like the idea. Good music, good quality, and good choice gain my vote.

I also support the idea of a 95% - 5% split for artist and website. It IMO is more appropriate for independent artists, aspiring artists, and those recording from home (the "crappy" recordings can be pretty high quality with a $200 microphone, a $400 analog-digital converter, something like the $50 Sound Studio, and some cut and paste skills).

I'd like to see the service cater to independent and aspiring artists, if only on a secondary level. I would be extremely excited about the creativity and diversity inspired by such a service, and by the opportunity to share my own music.

Finally, before the flames I guess I have to acknowledge that the moderation to insure quality recordings (in terms of both musical ability and recording clarity) would be extensive.

What the heck - Apple Innovates. Support Independent Artists in the Music World, Apple.
 
The fricken point is...

That $20 for a CD with half or less than half of the songs being any good is a rip off. Thats why people pirate and d/l music illegally. I know I would much rather pay for only the music that I enjoy. You get bands who get a one hit wonder, then fill their CD's with filler CRAP and sell them for $20 when all you really wanted was that one song. Problem fixed. $0.99 for that one song. Sure the band may not get as much money but its more money to them than having the whole world pirate their stuff because they made a CD full of crap and one good song. I know that I would definately pay $0.99 for a track that I like. The problems here are this:

They cant have just Top 40 crap. They MUST have a huge library. Im talking like the big record companies and then allow any smaller record companies to offer their tracks as well. I like a lot of trance and electronic music which isnt distributed by the large USA and European record labels so there would have to be a partner program for other record distributors or personal people that want to sell their music as well like on mp3.com.

Second, Apple would make a big mistake to force people to sign up for .Mac to use this service. I would say, it would be feesable to say that they could charge .Mac customers $0.99/song and non .Mac users like $1.05 or something like that per song. That would work out perfectly. But Apple would have to work long and hard on this thing and if it were to ever happen, it wouldnt happen for a while, since the major record companies right now have their heads so far up their asses that they dont know what the hell to do.
 
Originally posted by ariza910
I have nothing to do with the RIAA or the music industry for that matter.

My comments are based on observations I have made about the music industry as well as what I have heard people say about it.

I am sick of people saying that CDs are expensive when they don?t even take the time to research why thy are so expensive.

The cost of a CD is based on what it cost to produce, market and sell people this Music.

Do the research, find the FACTS, and remember to always keep an open mind, don?t take my word for it or accuses me of being part of the RIAA, take what I have said and look it up. I am only trying to open peoples minds on the issue. If I am proven wrong on any of what I have said, and its based on truth I will change my mind, for now this is the way I believe. Please try to prove me wrong. But do it with real facts not with personal insults.
Fair enough - I will assume that you are not a paid agent of the RIAA.

However, that doesn't help your "argument" much. Challenging an argument armed with opinion instead of fact puts you in a VERY weak position; then demanding that others "prove you wrong" by using fact instead of opinion - well, it makes you a hypocrite AT BEST.

Dig it - you HAVE no facts; if you did, you would have used them. You say 'do the research', but you haven't done it: your research comes straight out of BillBoard, the RIAA, and TigerBeat

You will surely think that these are personal insults, but I'm just stating the plain truth: you have provided NO grounds upon which to insist that others do what you can't be bothered with - research.

As far as factual bases for arguments go, I have been involved in the record business for many years - both retail & radio - and have been a musician for more than 30 years. I am not active in the industry at the moment but I still have friends, and I have kept current; where my information is out of date, it is not MUCH out of date. My remarks in this thread are based on my personal knowledge and experience IN the industry, and on my knowelde of both the labels' side and the srtists' side.

So, you want to say I'm wrong, fine - back it up. If you can demonstrate that I'm wrong, that my understanding is faulty, that I have a poor grasp of the situation, please do - but if you want to challenge me (or anybody else), bring logic, bring fact, bring your personal eyewitness accounts, bring SOMETHING to support your challenge...or else leave it alone.

Or, as the Diceman might say: if you can't party w/ the big boys, don't show up.
 
why buy a whole album...

as others have mentioned for a full album at .99 its not worth it but i would be interested in being able to cherry pick tracks providing its payment per track and not on top of a subscription
 
Originally posted by Capt. Obvious


So, you want to say I'm wrong, fine - back it up. If you can demonstrate that I'm wrong, that my understanding is faulty, that I have a poor grasp of the situation, please do - but if you want to challenge me (or anybody else), bring logic, bring fact, bring your personal eyewitness accounts, bring SOMETHING to support your challenge...or else leave it alone.

Or, as the Diceman might say: if you can't party w/ the big boys, don't show up.

Capt. Obvious,

You have done nothing but say how wrong I am, yet you havent said why I am wrong or backed up your reasoning what so ever. What I have stated in my other post is the reality of the business. I realize that artist dont get paid much from CD sales and its a shame but there is a reason for it. It cost a lot of money to do everything that these record companies are doing.

You more than anyone should know how much it would all cost to do it yourself. You have studio, equipment, recording, manufacturing, distribution, booking of venues and marketing. Artist sign that contract becuase they dont want or cant compete with all of that. Record companies do all of that.

What you want is a record company to give you free studio time, free equipment, get you shows, put your face all over the meida, put your CDs in retail chains and then give you 90% of the sales, thats just crazy.

You are way to emotionaly involved because you are an artist and I understand that, but try to take a look at it objectivly. If your going to tell me im wrong about something make sure to say why.
 
MP3 Service

In my opinion, a pay-per-song service would be a good thing. Just to be able to listen to a song before you buy it would be a bonus.

Recently, I downloaded demo versions of some songs off the Net. (If you're interested, it was Audioslave- the combined efforts of 3 former Rage Against the Machine members and Chris Cornell, of former Soundgarden fame.) I made a CD with these pre-release demo tracks, listened to it constantly, and waited patiently for the release. The album, for me at least, is one of those albums where you throw it in the CD player, press play, then don't touch another button until it's finished. I thought it was that good.

It was about 13 dollars. When you consider the cost of a blank CD, the questionable quality, and most of all, my precious time, that's a steal for 12 or 13 tracks and less bother than downloading.

My point is this: I believe that the Internet Revolution (for lack of a better term) will lead to an overall better listening experience for the masses. The so-so artists who create so-so albums and get by on looks and dancing ability will hurt. But when I listen to music, I don't care whether the singer is cute and can dance. It's a sad state when the general public settles for mediocrity- something that's been going on for far too long. That's probably going to change.

Thanks for listening.
 
0.99 for a song - hmmm.... I don't think so

These guys are going to have a PR nightmare on their hands when/if they start promoting a $0.99/song feature.

Do they really want to advertise the fact that a 20GB ipod can hold 4000 songs, then say you can get these songs for just $0.99?!?! (of course most people will just use their own CD's or track down mp3's the old fashioned way), but suggesting to people that a "fully stocked" ipod could possibly cost them close to $4000, wow, I wouldn't want to have to come up with the ad campaign for that one.

:confused:
 
Event...

It occurs to me that if Apple is planning on releasing new iPods in conjunction with the unveiling of a new music service, that they would need to do this at an event; be it a press event or a keynote address where they can lay out the vision of the new service to the public.

If this is the case, I doubt we'll see the new iPods just popping up on a random Tuesday or other day without some actual event by which they will be introduced.

So, my guess is that a few days prior to the release, we'll hear about a press event, very similar to the manner in which the iPod was initially released. Or, alternatively, are there any smaller shows/events coming up that Apple could use to unveil such a service?

This speculation all depends upon the assumption that the two will be released together; and I can see marketing value to doing it that way.
 
Labels Think Apple Has Perfect Pitch

March 4, 2003
By Jon Healey, Times Staff Writer

Executives of major record firms believe a speedy, simple online music service for Mac users will be a hit.

Top executives at the major record companies have finally found an online music service that makes them excited about the digital future - but it's only for Macs.

The new service was developed by Apple Computer Inc., sources said Monday, and offers users of Macintoshes and iPod portable music players many of the same capabilities that already are available from services previously endorsed by the labels. But the Apple offering won over music executives because it makes buying and downloading music as simple and non-technical as buying a book from Amazon.com.

©LA Times, free registration for the complete story!!!
 
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