New late 2015 5k 27" iMac Time Machine failures to NAS WD My Cloud EX2

mtbdudex

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Aug 28, 2007
1,847
347
SE Michigan
My system:
Late 2015 27" 5k iMac as follows:


My set-up:
  • I have a simple Network at home over Cat5e cable.
  • I'm using a Airport Extreme for WiFi, however my 3 iMAc's are via Ethernet cable, only my MacBook Retina Pro is via WiFi (and of course the gazillion iPhones/iPAds/AppleTV).
  • NAS is a WD MyCloud EX2 6TB with Red drives.
  • There just 1 D-Link switch between me and the iMac, it's a relative new one
Features

The DGS-2205 5-Port 10/100/1000BASE-T Gigabit Ethernet Switch was designed for easy installation and high performance in an environment where traffic on the network and the number of users increase continuously.

• Five (5) 10/100/1000BASE-T Gigabit Ethernet ports
• Cable Diagnostic function at Switch boot up
• Supports Auto-Negotiation for 10/100/1000Mbps and duplex mode • Supports Auto-MDI/MDIX for each port
• Supports Full/Half duplex transfer mode for 10 and 100Mbps
• Supports Full-duplex transfer mode for 1000Mbps
• Supports IEEE 802.1p Priority Queuing, up to 4 queues
• Full wire speed reception and transmission
• Store-and-Forward switching method
• Supports 8K absolute MAC addresses
• Extensive front-panel diagnostic LEDs
• Jumbo Frame 9Kbytes
• IEEE 802.3x flow control for full duplex
• Back pressure flow control for half duplex

I'm trying to use my 6TB My Cloud EX2 NAS as a time machine back-up.

Issue:
Incremental back-up's failure, lock-up.
(post#2 will document that, as I'm giving background here)

Initial back-up took long time but I kinda expected that.
Below for background on network performance on initial back-up:
Here's my 1.22TB Initial Time Machine backup over LAN to 6TB NAS Western Digital My Cloud EX2
There were 4 hours left here, so about 24 hours total to do a 1.22TB initial back-up
I'm not sure if this is "good" or "bad" or just average.

17-18 MB/s, while a gigabit = 1,000 MB/s, so my performance was slooowww



Here's was my system performance over those past 20 hours

 

mtbdudex

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Aug 28, 2007
1,847
347
SE Michigan
Issue:
Incremental back-up's failure, lock-up.

Yes - I've read this https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204157, and this https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204412

The incremental back-up is taking way too long for nearly every one
Started this one at 6:48am:


Got all this tech errors, back-up not started after 3 minutes, normally it started nearly instantaneous


still preparing


and now shows 2 hours for a small back-up


and still stalled out and 3 hours, I stopped it
 

george_i

macrumors newbie
May 31, 2015
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Athens-Greece
Time Machine or OS X if you like, doesn't support NAS devices, regardless the disk is recognised.

The vendor may say that his device is supported, but if you need to run the restore routine you will find out that you can't. Or, at your case, probably the backup is not running at all.

So -that's my opinion- drop the NAS and switch over to a traditional external hard drive. And because one backup = no backup, i recommend you use two backup disks. :)
 
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treekram

macrumors 68000
Nov 9, 2015
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Just to be safe, I wouldn't do the backup to a NAS.

Well WD is a HUGE company, and they clearly state Time Machine capability
http://support.wdc.com/KnowledgeBase/answer.aspx?ID=3561

I've had the device for 1 year now, too late to return it.....
The link that you provided says:

"Important: Compatibility with certain versions of Mac OSX will depend on the device being used. When using a NAS with Time Machine, make sure that the device is listed as being compatible with the Operating System (OS) at hand."

The paragraph above that says:

"My Cloud Storage devices, Small Business Servers and other Network Attached Storage (NAS) devices can now be used with the Time Machine backup application, built into Mac OSX 10.5.x (Leopard), 10.6.x (Snow Leopard), 10.7.x (Lion), 10.8.x (Mountain Lion), 10.9.x (Mavericks), and 10.10.x (Yosemite)."

You have El Capitan. Is there somewhere else that states your device is compatible with El Capitan?
 
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mtbdudex

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Aug 28, 2007
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^^^ good point I overlooked that, possibly they meant 10.5.x and forward, I'll open a help ticket with WD directly
 

simonsi

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Jan 3, 2014
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Well WD is a HUGE company, and they clearly state Time Machine capability


Means nothing, they can't maintain TM compatibility as they don't control TM, what you need is a statement from Apple...but they specifically don't support NAS for TM.
 

zhaoxin

macrumors 6502
Jan 28, 2015
267
52
I think you should exclude some folders in Time Machine. For example, I exclude Parallels Desktop virtual disks' folder and ~/Download folder. This will make your backup smaller, which also means less time to backup.

I think you should also find out on which side the lock up is. If some app in OS X locks up files, the app may fault designed. You should totally quit that app and try again. Or completely remove that app and reboot your computer. If it is the NAS locking up some files, you maybe need to reboot you NAS and try again. Also, you should check if the firmware on your NAS is the latest.

Also, you have many Macs. You should as well consider if the backup is not mixed with the others. I mean you should have different computer names for different Macs.

Finally, I don't think there is an issue between WD NAS with OS X 10.11 on Time Machine backing up. I am using a WD My Cloud 3TB. I can back it up with my Macbook air 13 2013 running OS X 10.11 without any issues.
 

mtbdudex

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Aug 28, 2007
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Means nothing, they can't maintain TM compatibility as they don't control TM, what you need is a statement from Apple...but they specifically don't support NAS for TM.
I understand, tomorrow being Saturday Dec 26th I'll open a Apple Care ticket and see what Apple directly says about NAS and TM. As I have 4 computers now I do desire a large solution, storage wide, hence 6TBof RAID storage with RED drives.

I think you should exclude some folders in Time Machine. For example, I exclude Parallels Desktop virtual disks' folder and ~/Download folder. This will make your backup smaller, which also means less time to backup.

I think you should also find out on which side the lock up is. If some app in OS X locks up files, the app may fault designed. You should totally quit that app and try again. Or completely remove that app and reboot your computer. If it is the NAS locking up some files, you maybe need to reboot you NAS and try again. Also, you should check if the firmware on your NAS is the latest.

Also, you have many Macs. You should as well consider if the backup is not mixed with the others. I mean you should have different computer names for different Macs.

Finally, I don't think there is an issue between WD NAS with OS X 10.11 on Time Machine backing up. I am using a WD My Cloud 3TB. I can back it up with my Macbook air 13 2013 running OS X 10.11 without any issues.
Having your success is a great data point for me, if it works for you it SHOULD work for me!
Hence I'm keeping "pushing on" as the old REO Speedwagon song goes.

Each of my 4 computers have exclusive name, and that does show up in each TM back-up.

I've done the TM back-up after fresh restart and reboot of the My Cloiud EX2 and it still exhibits the issues :(
Also did check the firmware and I have the latest from Oct-2015.

Honestly, this is too much crap for a Apple / Mac computer experience, a total "bag of hurt".
Nothing I'd expect ever, and I've gone thru so much since having my first Apple Mac computer in Sept-1984, the original 128k Mac , and my MacPlus, Mac SE30, MacPortable, Powerbook 180, Mac G3 mini-tower, iMac G3, etc (I've never owned a WinTel machine). Spent over $40k on hardware and software over the years, taught the MacBasics course 1987-1989 at AA MacTechnics http://www.mactechnics.org/ computer club.

I truly appreciate everyone's help in getting this root caused and solved.
Just a few picts of my Mac's of yesteryear...
 
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Weaselboy

Moderator
Staff member
Jan 23, 2005
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California
Time Machine or OS X if you like, doesn't support NAS devices, regardless the disk is recognised.
It actually does now. Below is from this Apple support doc.

Screen Shot 2015-12-26 at 9.41.21 AM.png


That last line about AFP mounted volumes is new and was not there a few months ago. I think most of those third party NAS devices use a Linux variant and rely on Netatalk for AFP support and Netatalk has been updated quite a bit in the last couple years.... so perhaps Apple is more comfortable making this statement now.

OP> The problem with using a third party device like this is even though Apple says it should work, Apple is not likely to help you get it working since it is not their product. What seems to happen with some of these OS X updates is Apple makes changes to how Time Machine works and that requires a firmware/software update from the NAS vendor to make things work properly again. We see it with almost every major update.

Are you on the latest firmware/software updates form the NAS. If you look herein the WD forums and search at the top for "El Capitan" there are several threads from users having troubles with the device and El Capitan... some of the threads offer solutions. Might help you.
 

mtbdudex

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Aug 28, 2007
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It actually does now. Below is from this Apple support doc.

View attachment 607323

That last line about AFP mounted volumes is new and was not there a few months ago. I think most of those third party NAS devices use a Linux variant and rely on Netatalk for AFP support and Netatalk has been updated quite a bit in the last couple years.... so perhaps Apple is more comfortable making this statement now.

OP> The problem with using a third party device like this is even though Apple says it should work, Apple is not likely to help you get it working since it is not their product. What seems to happen with some of these OS X updates is Apple makes changes to how Time Machine works and that requires a firmware/software update from the NAS vendor to make things work properly again. We see it with almost every major update.

Are you on the latest firmware/software updates form the NAS. If you look herein the WD forums and search at the top for "El Capitan" there are several threads from users having troubles with the device and El Capitan... some of the threads offer solutions. Might help you.
Weaselboy;
I'll check out the forum link you posted, I'm also a member there, user name same "mtbdudex", and posted in the My Cloud EX2 forum my issues Late 2015 iMac 27” 5k Retina and backing up 2TB TB to my 6TB EX2
Yes, I'm on firmware 2.10.310 , the latest.
 
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mtbdudex

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Original poster
Aug 28, 2007
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I've excluded spotlight, yet it keeps crunching the NAS disk aftert back-up, and small imcremenatal backups are so sloooww and slugish.



Whi is spotlight crunching away when i tell it not to?
This is a Apple issue not a NAS issue.



Also - taking 12 minutes for 30MB back-up is just f*cked up!


Look, I'm a photo hobbyist, and this NAS is again a bag of hurt and I can't recommend it to anyone.
I had ZERO issues with a USB 2 drive on Time Capsule, I'm ready to take the (2) 6TB RED drives, find a USB 3 enclosure, and just have Time Machine alternate between them, a psuedo-raid back-up.

Spending way too much time on this.
 

cynics

macrumors G4
Jan 8, 2012
11,586
1,886
I've excluded spotlight, yet it keeps crunching the NAS disk aftert back-up, and small imcremenatal backups are so sloooww and slugish.



Whi is spotlight crunching away when i tell it not to?
This is a Apple issue not a NAS issue.



Also - taking 12 minutes for 30MB back-up is just f*cked up!


Look, I'm a photo hobbyist, and this NAS is again a bag of hurt and I can't recommend it to anyone.
I had ZERO issues with a USB 2 drive on Time Capsule, I'm ready to take the (2) 6TB RED drives, find a USB 3 enclosure, and just have Time Machine alternate between them, a psuedo-raid back-up.

Spending way too much time on this.
Could you get a diskless WD MyBook Duo than drop in your Reds and set it up for hardware RAID1 connected via USB 2?
 

jasnw

macrumors 6502a
Nov 15, 2013
796
838
Seattle Area (NOT! Microsoft)
I thought seriously about a NAS for my home network last year and finally decided that a Mac-centric solution using a Mac Mini with external USB drives (WD Red HDD in OWC boxes) was the best way forward. I would have preferred using a NAS, but was concerned about the very sort of problems you're experiencing. Apple just doesn't care enough about playing nice with non-Apple hardware and software to make using a NAS worth the time/pain. They're in the business of making pretty/thin works of art and pushing Apple product, not living within a user's preferred network environment. Hey, they got me to buy more Apple stuff.
 

cynics

macrumors G4
Jan 8, 2012
11,586
1,886
There are a lot of reviews with people having the same problem with the EX2 anywhere they sell them that aren't related to operating system or back up method. Usually those reviews revolve around very large back ups such as the one you are trying to perform.

You don't mention much about the setup of the NAS or maybe I missed it? Do you have a specific user for TM? Can you run and post screen shots of a Black Magic benchmark on the NAS? Have you or could you try to transfer a large amount of data to the NAS manually (like 4tb, yes it will take forever).

The reason I don't have a MyCloud Mirror (VERY similar to the EX2) is because of reviews that state nearly exactly what you're experiencing. People have successfully been using dedicated NAS solutions for years with OS X and with its reviews I wouldn't be surprised if this is more of a defective product problem rather then an Apple issue. You've got to admit, it transferred A LOT of data before its sudden incompatibility....

I'd really like to see the resolution to your problem because I'm in need for a NAS in RAID1 and I'm not really sure what I'm going to do. My only other option is USB to my AE like I mentioned with the MyBook but that isn't much cheaper and I'd lose out on a ton of functionality.
 

Gmouse

macrumors regular
Nov 12, 2014
227
32
Lakewood, CO
Unfortunately, I think the NAS vendors lie to us about TM COMPLIANCE (maybe not about COMPATIBILITY). I bought a Seagate NAS (4-bay) for specific TM use, and have separate shares on it for my iMac and rMB to use for TM backups. Both computers keep reporting every few weeks that there is some issue with the backup, and they have to replace it. I am hard-wired (CAT-6, 1 Gbps) with iMac, wireless with rMB. When using external direct-connected drives I never had an issue.

REALLY pissed at the vendors, but...also at Apple, as, I am also using the NAS to do backups from two Windows computers, and they never have issues (doing verifications weekly). it's a big ignorant, almost 2016, that we cannot backup to network storage from OS X.
 

jasnw

macrumors 6502a
Nov 15, 2013
796
838
Seattle Area (NOT! Microsoft)
The NAS vendors have no gain in not being TM compliant/compatible, and I suspect that most of them try to do so. However, given how Apple keeps up this annual OS update, breaking things that ain't broke in each new OS release, particularly in the network side of things, I also suspect that a good chunk of this problem lies in Cupertino. As I said in an earlier post, Apple is in the hardware business and has little/no gain in making things easy for the competition. I don't necessarily think that they sit around in meetings and plan how to screw over the NAS vendors, but I do believe there's a lot of charging ahead with changes to networking details with little thought about how the changes might effect other hardware living on the same network.
 

mtbdudex

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Aug 28, 2007
1,847
347
SE Michigan
Besides trying to solve this issue with your help, it's also a log of whay I'm going thru for both Apple support an WD support.
I've been too busy to contact them over the holidays, however I will this week during my lunch break.
As of today, still not working.
It got stuck on back-up of 33GB at 147MB, and been crunching away for 20 minutes without any more progress.
Yes, I've done the restart iMac and WD, still same.
 

leman

macrumors G4
Oct 14, 2008
11,001
5,504
A number of people have reports issues with WD NAS recently. My guess wold be that their implementation of AFP protocols are not as good as they let you believe.
 

mtbdudex

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Original poster
Aug 28, 2007
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SE Michigan
More data: I was able to run the back-up, I did s restart twice on the iMac then once on the WD, and also on my AirPort Extreme.
30GB in 23 minutes, 1.34GB/minute, or 22MB/s speed , give or take.
Not 100 MB/s + NAS could deliver, more like USB 2.0 speed, still it completed.
Again, taking way too much effort on my part to make it happen.


However prior I had turned off spotlight from indexnig the NAS and the TimeMachine partition,
See here:


now those are gone and I can't add them again - I did NOT remove them, this error came up:
wtf is going on here??
 
Last edited:

mtbdudex

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Aug 28, 2007
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SE Michigan
The hours I've wasted on this...bag of hurt, I'm tired and brain is tired.

a) I'm going to do a complete clean install on the new 5k iMac, bare bones just latest OsX updates, no applications added, nothing, no excuses for non Apple incompatibilities/etc
b) I'm going to do a re-format of the 6TB NAS, make sure it's at latest firmware (it is as of today)
c) Then I'll re-do the Time Machine back-ups

If I have issues with pure Apple and NAS, then I'm calling Apple Care.
This upcoming weekends project.
 

Weaselboy

Moderator
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Jan 23, 2005
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Well it sure is in my case, look here.
I did a manual back-up, then the NAS started crunching as spotlight was indexing it.....
There is nothing in that log indicating Spotlight is indexing the networked drive. Those log entries are all related to Time Machine. By default, networked drives are not indexed by Spotlight. There is a Terminal hack to enable it, but it must be run each time you mount the drive.
 

mtbdudex

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Aug 28, 2007
1,847
347
SE Michigan
[doublepost=1452331493][/doublepost]
There is nothing in that log indicating Spotlight is indexing the networked drive. Those log entries are all related to Time Machine. By default, networked drives are not indexed by Spotlight. There is a Terminal hack to enable it, but it must be run each time you mount the drive.
So am I supposed to read
"1/3/16 6:14:51.590 PM com.apple.backupd[163] Waiting for Spotlight to finish indexing /Volumes/Time Machine Backups/Backups.backupdb"
as this:

Spotlight is doing some work (where?), so while it is the activity 'backup' cannot access the NAS volume called 'Time Machine Backup'?
I'm just trying to read the console log correctly ....

Moved the 2009 iMac to the basement, it is 2 floors from the loft. LAN goes thru 1 gigabit switch in the loft, then cat5e cable thru the home, to another gigabit switch in the basement central dist panel, then cat5e cable to basement craft room.
I decided to use that 6 year old iMac 2TB HD as easiset back-up.
Screen share made this so easy, mount the older iMac, then drop/drag.
I was quite happy to be getting LAN speeds of 75MB/s to 100+MB/s






For me this shows at least my LAN hardware is not the issue/problem, and both iMacs can and do have fast data transfer speeds.

I then tried to copy same exact file to the NAS, it so bogged down I cancelled the transfer.
I've since, just now, am doing a full disc format of the NAS, then a fully system reset to factory settings.
 
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